beamon
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Right, and with the financial wags talking of Remington's poor financial condition and the possibility of bankruptcy, this "buying of time" is important to them.
The Remington R51, Explained
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Right, and with the financial wags talking of Remington's poor financial condition and the possibility of bankruptcy, this "buying of time" is important to them.
LemmyCaution
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If I'm not mistaken, Remington, Marlin, DPMS, Bushmaster, H&R, et al except maybe Para were all doing just fine before Cerberus Tactical came in and 'streamlined and consolidated' (read: sold off everything of value and then dumped the stock). Which puts putatively 'free-market' capitalism in a bit of a quandary WRT 'freedom,' as exemplified by the sanctity of the 2A.
I wish Remington the best in Huntsville, but their root problem was never the union. It has always been the shareholders. And frankly, the blame for the R51 can be squarely left at their feet. Para was never the place to produce that pistol, and it wouldn't surprise me if the design team came from a different facility from the production team, with little coordination between the two because, really, is that so important, compared to short term stock performance?
I wish Remington the best in Huntsville, but their root problem was never the union. It has always been the shareholders. And frankly, the blame for the R51 can be squarely left at their feet. Para was never the place to produce that pistol, and it wouldn't surprise me if the design team came from a different facility from the production team, with little coordination between the two because, really, is that so important, compared to short term stock performance?
JRH6856
Member
Several comments attributed to the R51 product manager pretty much confirm this. The prototypes were built in the R&D shops in Ilion, got great response when previewed at Gunsite, then production was assigned to Para.
Apparently no one considered that since this was probably the last major production run at Para before the faciility was closed and moved to Alabama there might be a less than dedicated effort.
The comments also hinted that production changes made at Para resulted in a diffrent gun than was initially designed. We know the trigger was lightened probably as a safety measure, but it seemed he was saying that was just one of several that resulted in lower than expected quality.
Pelo801
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I decided I didn't want to wait anymore for them to send me a new R51. I called them on Friday and asked them to exchange it for the 1911. They said I would have to set up a transfer with an FFL and have the info faxed to them. I called my FFL right away and had them fax over the paperwork. That guy has always been real good about getting the FFL copy over quickly. I'm sure he did it on Friday. I called Remington today to make sure they got all they needed. It was about 1:00 and they told me it just came in a few hours ago. I don't know if I even buy that story but whatever. They also told me it could take 3 to 6 weeks for me to get the new pistol.
JRH6856
Member
If the music stops while your gun is a Remington, that just puts you on a long list of creditors...and not at the top.Just know that if the music stops while your gun is with remington...
That's as good a reason to take a refund/trade as any
TCB
lincen
Member
I also accepted the R1 in trade and was told that they are in stock and should be sent out in a "couple" weeks. I'll start looking to get the call from my FFL around the New Year!
Gun Master
Member
Nick Leghorn R51 Review
I (and maybe others) owe Nick Leghorn an apology for detrimental comments about his review. He was right!
Sorry, Nick ! I continue to follow your reviews. Thank you very much for your contributions !
I (and maybe others) owe Nick Leghorn an apology for detrimental comments about his review. He was right!
Sorry, Nick ! I continue to follow your reviews. Thank you very much for your contributions !
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barnbwt
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He flagged none of the relevant quality/design issues, and his particular gun worked fine; still the inexplicable low rating, then after-the-fact justifications after other reviewers had issues. I stand by my criticism. I still don't understand how one gets slide bite from one.
If you recall, the trigger reset was his biggest gripe
TCB
If you recall, the trigger reset was his biggest gripe
TCB
JRH6856
Member
I (and maybe others) owe Nick Leghorn an apology for detrimental comments about his review. He was right!
Sorry, Nick ! I continue to follow your reviews. Thank you very much for your contributions !
barnbwt said:
Have to agree with barnbwt on this one. Leghorn's review really said nothing useful. Just seemed like ranting just to be ranting.
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barnbwt
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For the record, I do think the great majority of Nick's other articles are among the better ones on TTAG, but the R51 stuck out as really poorly done. He either failed to articulate/justify his dislike of the gun, or wrote with pre-existing bias (more against the slavish praise of other writers than Remington, I suspect)
TCB
TCB
Smithkowitz
Member
So how many here have an R51 that doesn't have any problems? To be totally honest, mine seems to be working just fine. I did experience the issue some speak of when you reassemble it incorrectly, was able to rectify that on the spot at the range in a jiffy. I've had it apart 3 times now, and it works and shoots just fine. A very nice shooting and accurate gun as well. I never saw another one besides the one I bought back in April 2014, I think it's the 3110th one made, if they started with number 1 in the serial #'s. I think I had one hang up on the slide the first time I took it out and one failure to eject the second time. Not sure how many rounds I've shot, but it has been way more reliable than my Sig P290 (that cost me more) and it feels better, is more accurate and all around nicer in my opinion.
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1SOW
Member
Smithkowitz, like you, I REALLY liked the pistol. Mine was just a few hundred lower part number than yours and had a number of problems. I turned mine in for repair and got zip info or updates, so my patience ran out after all these put-offs and maybes.
I wish it had come back fully functionally. I would have been very happy to have it. It is a good shooter.
Make me an offer for two good mags.
I wish it had come back fully functionally. I would have been very happy to have it. It is a good shooter.
Make me an offer for two good mags.
Badger Arms
Member
I did not get slide bite, but I had to adjust my grip to keep from getting it. What I did get was a raw spot where the grip safety slot had not been dehorned and was cutting into the web of my hand.barnbwt said:
For the record, I was, at the same time, one of the biggest fanboys of the DESIGN, but when I got the pistol, I ran into virtually every issue. Blown primers, sticky slide, out-of battery discharge, mushy trigger reset, and side-to-side wobble in the trigger. See my review here: http://youtu.be/AvEAr9TJ51M
I think that Remington missed the boat by not designing the .45 ACP version first. They just had to scale the magazine down and change the bolt for it to work in 9mm and then follow the same path that the XDS followed. Remington did this in the 1920's with the original Model 51 by introducing it first in 380 and then later in 32 ACP. Looking at the magazine, a .45 GAP will fit with ease but it is JUST a little too short for the .45 ACP. To me, that extra .050" forward-to-back length would have solved SOOO many problems in the future.
... that is IF there is a future for this design.
JRH6856
Member
Badger Arms said:
I have yet to see any reports of an unsafe out of battery discharge in any review of the R51 (admittedly, I have probably not seen all available reviews). Keep in mind that with the Pedersen action, the breech locks before the round is fully chambered, and once the breech is locked, the pistol may be fired safely, even though one might not consider it to be fully in battery.
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barnbwt
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"What I did get was a raw spot where the grip safety slot had not been dehorned and was cutting into the web of my hand."
Okay, I can see that. The way the safety mechanism is designed, slight variances (or not so slight) in the geometry of the parts greatly change how much swing of the lever is needed to deactivate the safety (as well as where it sits and how much force is needed). I'm certain that at least some are below flush with the frame or near it, and that those sharp corners (fairly sharp even when deburred simply because of the rounding of the backstrap) would protrude.
Badger, did you actually get pierced primers? I remember someone around here saying they got one blown primer (and I think a pin-hole case failure; I forget if that was you), but that was it. I say this more incredulously than anything, since the gun certainly can fire with less case support than you'd prefer to chance, as well as bulging every last primer with monotonous regularity. But it simply doesn't seem to be a problem, somehow (at least nowhere near the problem presented by short chambers and all-around poor construction)
"So how many here have an R51 that doesn't have any problems?"
Mine doesn't have problems any more. That said, I have to keep it clean, since the action design does seem a bit more sensitive in this regard, compared with other designs whose parts do not slide against each other under load. I do this more for longevity/wear purposes than for function.
TCB
Okay, I can see that. The way the safety mechanism is designed, slight variances (or not so slight) in the geometry of the parts greatly change how much swing of the lever is needed to deactivate the safety (as well as where it sits and how much force is needed). I'm certain that at least some are below flush with the frame or near it, and that those sharp corners (fairly sharp even when deburred simply because of the rounding of the backstrap) would protrude.
Badger, did you actually get pierced primers? I remember someone around here saying they got one blown primer (and I think a pin-hole case failure; I forget if that was you), but that was it. I say this more incredulously than anything, since the gun certainly can fire with less case support than you'd prefer to chance, as well as bulging every last primer with monotonous regularity. But it simply doesn't seem to be a problem, somehow (at least nowhere near the problem presented by short chambers and all-around poor construction)
"So how many here have an R51 that doesn't have any problems?"
Mine doesn't have problems any more. That said, I have to keep it clean, since the action design does seem a bit more sensitive in this regard, compared with other designs whose parts do not slide against each other under load. I do this more for longevity/wear purposes than for function.
TCB
1SOW
Member
Right there, is what I experienced with mine. After 50 rds, my hand was worn out from the grip I had to hold to release the safety. I have shot 500 rounds in competitions, and was ready to shoot more with my 'fun guns', but the R51 safety and obstinate trigger wore out my strong hand in 50.
P.S. I submitted the paperwork for a refund 10 days ago or so, but haven't had any sort of of a reply.
JRH6856
Member
And that is the aggravating thing about this gun. :banghead: The inconsistency of experience. My R51 trigger breaks crisply at just over 3.5lbs, and I have no complaints about the safety--it releases and stops before it gets inside the sharp edges of the frame, yet it still has more than enough resistance to function as a primary safety.
Pelo801
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Like I mention earlier in this post, I asked for the exchange on November 21st. Went to the pawn shop and picked up my new R1 today. Although I'm bummed I will have to wait to see what happens for the future of the R51 and live with the fact I may never own one now, I'm pretty happy with my new gun.
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JRH6856
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Thanks for the update. The fact that they are actually fulfilling requests is encouraging. I may think more seriously about exchanging mine.
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barnbwt
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Me, too...after all you other guys, when R51 values shoot north of 500$ (if they haven't already)
Patents are 9 years, right? And Remington is probably too dense at this point to defend its IP anymore, so in a decade we can all plan on a Taurus/Ruger improvement model hitting the streets (the gun press and laypeople all bag on what a terrible product the R51 was, but I and most other engineers I've spoken with about the design believe it has enormous potential that has been utterly wasted by Remington. As logic stands, many professional gun designers the world over have likely come to similar realizations themselves)
TCB
Patents are 9 years, right? And Remington is probably too dense at this point to defend its IP anymore, so in a decade we can all plan on a Taurus/Ruger improvement model hitting the streets (the gun press and laypeople all bag on what a terrible product the R51 was, but I and most other engineers I've spoken with about the design believe it has enormous potential that has been utterly wasted by Remington. As logic stands, many professional gun designers the world over have likely come to similar realizations themselves)
TCB
B!ngoFuelUSN
Member
I just want to add my name to the list of people thanking the OP for such fine work. I am amazed by the ability of some people to deeply understand mechanical objects and their workings, determine weaknesses and improvements and in the case of the OP, also to be thoughtful and articulate enough to help others understand as well. Amazing.
In the case of the R51, I was very interested in buying one as it seemed like a unique and positive change (though I wouldn't say innovative based on its re-use of an old design) in handgun design. Small, smooth, ergonomic, safe and easy to handle. I'm just appalled that Remington did such a bad job of managing their subs to deliver something that was far from what the proto models embodied. It doesn't help that I own a 700 and had to buy a new (though improved) trigger for it because of a similar inability to understand manufacturing processes.
For those who ended up with bad ones, I feel for you though getting an R1 in trade, to sell for more bucks than was spent in the first place isn't totally bad. But what a disaster.
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In the case of the R51, I was very interested in buying one as it seemed like a unique and positive change (though I wouldn't say innovative based on its re-use of an old design) in handgun design. Small, smooth, ergonomic, safe and easy to handle. I'm just appalled that Remington did such a bad job of managing their subs to deliver something that was far from what the proto models embodied. It doesn't help that I own a 700 and had to buy a new (though improved) trigger for it because of a similar inability to understand manufacturing processes.
For those who ended up with bad ones, I feel for you though getting an R1 in trade, to sell for more bucks than was spent in the first place isn't totally bad. But what a disaster.
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