JRH6856
Member
Based on what I am seeing on mine so far, yes. I would not consider a steel frame to be an enhancement as it would definitely make it too heavy for pocket carry. OTOH, a hybrid polymer/steel frame might be.
The Remington R51, Explained
- Thread starter barnbwt
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Based on what I am seeing on mine so far, yes. I would not consider a steel frame to be an enhancement as it would definitely make it too heavy for pocket carry. OTOH, a hybrid polymer/steel frame might be.
Gun Master
Member
Steel, Alloy, Polymer Composition
How about more options ? Alloy/steel; polymer/steel; steel/steel !
Me likie choices !
How about more options ? Alloy/steel; polymer/steel; steel/steel !
Me likie choices !
JRH6856
Member
I think they are going to have a hard time getting market acceptance for just one of those.How about more options ? Alloy/steel; polymer/steel; steel/steel !
Me likie choices !
Gun Master
Member
Remington R51 and Model 51
I had my hopes up, but I'm afraid you're right.
I wish they'd reproduce their original Model 51, and do it well. That would be really worth waiting for.
I had my hopes up, but I'm afraid you're right.
I wish they'd reproduce their original Model 51, and do it well. That would be really worth waiting for.
1SOW
Member
With the fixed bbl, the aluminum frame should hold up fine if the internals are machined properly. Sig P-series aluminum frames last just fine .
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barnbwt
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"Does anyone think that the aluminum frame will hold up like the older steel frame Pedersen action handguns?"
It probably isn't an issue. Or rather, it doesn't have to be. But that's a question of how well the parts were engineered. So long as the contact area is broad, there will be no peening, and as long as the parts are smooth/lubed there should be no galling or abrasion. I noticed my bolt/shoulder wore to mate each other pretty rapidly, but then have stayed mostly stable since then.
The problem I keep running into is that the bolt is so soft, its locking surface is peened outward by riding over the disconnector, this little raised bur digging into the aluminum shoulder of the frame. Granted, this is mostly evident on the top face of the frame, not the front where it matters, but I still don't like metal moving around like this.
Simply because the whole aluminum/steel thing seems to be a bridge too far for most folks (it just keeps coming up on the 'worries' list), I suggest they mill a pocket into the frame, and install a hardened steel locking shoulder like the FAL or BREN did. What I don't understand are people who have doubts on the aluminum/steel rails. I thought numerous companies have been successfully doing aluminum lower frames for...decades
The funniest part of this whole thing is that it really doesn't matter in all likelihood, at least for less than 1000 rounds. There's been no indication the shoulder can wear enough to fail to stop the breechblock, so the gun will lock up safely, and the way the Pedersen system works, if the locking face sets back even a massive .01" inside the gun, it would still function identically so long as the bolt can easily slip up and over the frame shoulder. Obviously neither of these things is good for long term durability, but it sounds like the action should be far more resilient in the face of damage/deformation than, say, a 1911 whose lugs would peen/shear, then immediately Kaboom to inform the user something was wrong
TCB
It probably isn't an issue. Or rather, it doesn't have to be. But that's a question of how well the parts were engineered. So long as the contact area is broad, there will be no peening, and as long as the parts are smooth/lubed there should be no galling or abrasion. I noticed my bolt/shoulder wore to mate each other pretty rapidly, but then have stayed mostly stable since then.
The problem I keep running into is that the bolt is so soft, its locking surface is peened outward by riding over the disconnector, this little raised bur digging into the aluminum shoulder of the frame. Granted, this is mostly evident on the top face of the frame, not the front where it matters, but I still don't like metal moving around like this.
Simply because the whole aluminum/steel thing seems to be a bridge too far for most folks (it just keeps coming up on the 'worries' list), I suggest they mill a pocket into the frame, and install a hardened steel locking shoulder like the FAL or BREN did. What I don't understand are people who have doubts on the aluminum/steel rails. I thought numerous companies have been successfully doing aluminum lower frames for...decades
The funniest part of this whole thing is that it really doesn't matter in all likelihood, at least for less than 1000 rounds. There's been no indication the shoulder can wear enough to fail to stop the breechblock, so the gun will lock up safely, and the way the Pedersen system works, if the locking face sets back even a massive .01" inside the gun, it would still function identically so long as the bolt can easily slip up and over the frame shoulder. Obviously neither of these things is good for long term durability, but it sounds like the action should be far more resilient in the face of damage/deformation than, say, a 1911 whose lugs would peen/shear, then immediately Kaboom to inform the user something was wrong
TCB
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barnbwt
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"I wish they'd reproduce their original Model 51, and do it well. That would be really worth waiting for."
We'd be hearing about broken bolts/slides almost immediately. As bad as the R51 has been, it seems Remington at least corrected the two true design flaws of the original. If they'd built this new model to standards of the original, the gun would be like 1500$, but would probably hang with 1911's in the same range. I don't blame Remington for catering to a broader market, though (I do blame them for failing to cater to anyone without cooking the food fully)
TCB
We'd be hearing about broken bolts/slides almost immediately. As bad as the R51 has been, it seems Remington at least corrected the two true design flaws of the original. If they'd built this new model to standards of the original, the gun would be like 1500$, but would probably hang with 1911's in the same range. I don't blame Remington for catering to a broader market, though (I do blame them for failing to cater to anyone without cooking the food fully)
TCB
lincen
Member
barnbwt, thank you for your response. I was hoping you would post about that concern. Since I had sent mine back I no longer have an example to observe. I have no worries about aluminum frames and own a good number of them. You answered my concern as it was only about the Pederson action with an aluminum frame. I do appreciate you in-depth explanations of the functioning of the model R51.
My LGS has one and the counter jockey advised me against buying it. I was tempted to get it anyway.
Its shape reminds me of the Mauser HSC, Makarov, and the Vektor CP1.
I like how snag free it appears.
Sure hope R51 v2.0 has the bugs worked out.
I remember grumblings about problems with the Ruger SR9, when it was a new, I finally bought a new SR9 in 2013 and it has been fantastic.
As much as I dislike the Glock (IJ ripoff) trigger, I'd rather Remington use it if it fixes the problems with the trigger.
Ruger used it and it works well for them.
I just want the R51 to be a good gun, because it appeals to me.
I appreciate your teardown and explanation of the gun.
Its shape reminds me of the Mauser HSC, Makarov, and the Vektor CP1.
I like how snag free it appears.
Sure hope R51 v2.0 has the bugs worked out.
I remember grumblings about problems with the Ruger SR9, when it was a new, I finally bought a new SR9 in 2013 and it has been fantastic.
As much as I dislike the Glock (IJ ripoff) trigger, I'd rather Remington use it if it fixes the problems with the trigger.
Ruger used it and it works well for them.
I just want the R51 to be a good gun, because it appeals to me.
I appreciate your teardown and explanation of the gun.
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JRH6856
Member
What problem do you believe the trigger has that would require such a drastic redesign of the pistol? Remember, the R51 does not use a partially pre-cocked striker, it uses a fully cocked hammer.
I was just saying that IF it required such a radical departure to fix it.
It looks like what it really needs is for the crack pipes to be taken away from the decision makers at Remington.
Seriously, building it more like the prototypes seems as if it would fix most of the problems.
That, and utilizing a little thing known as quality control.
As much as I hate to advocate the use of MIM parts, that could very well be what needs to be done in order to make it into a working gun.
I know that MIM parts can be great, when done correctly. I'm just not ready to jump on that bandwagon.
I honestly hope Remington gets it right. I really want one.
Even though a Kel-Tec P11 makes more sense for me because I can use my 59 and 69 Smith mags in it, I like the look and feel of the R51.
I hope they don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I'm still tempted to go back and buy it, just to see how good/bad an example I get, and see what a cleaning and fluff/buff can do for it.
Eve if it's short and/or tight chambered, a reamer will put it in spec.
I guess now is a good time to bring back the old nickname for the 742; Jammington.
It looks like what it really needs is for the crack pipes to be taken away from the decision makers at Remington.
Seriously, building it more like the prototypes seems as if it would fix most of the problems.
That, and utilizing a little thing known as quality control.
As much as I hate to advocate the use of MIM parts, that could very well be what needs to be done in order to make it into a working gun.
I know that MIM parts can be great, when done correctly. I'm just not ready to jump on that bandwagon.
I honestly hope Remington gets it right. I really want one.
Even though a Kel-Tec P11 makes more sense for me because I can use my 59 and 69 Smith mags in it, I like the look and feel of the R51.
I hope they don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I'm still tempted to go back and buy it, just to see how good/bad an example I get, and see what a cleaning and fluff/buff can do for it.
Eve if it's short and/or tight chambered, a reamer will put it in spec.
I guess now is a good time to bring back the old nickname for the 742; Jammington.
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JRH6856
Member
That is what puzzles me. There is nothing radically wrong with. Just a little wobble that can be fixed with a bushing.
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barnbwt
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Every small part inside the gun (likely including the breech block before final machining) is MIM, btw. These parts exhibit the best apparent workmanship apart from maybe the exterior surfaces. Not surprising since it seems thoze were farmed out to a subcontractor.
A striker fired conversion would seem to be really difficult since the bolt body tilts up and down inside there. I'm sure it could be done, but I bet the trigger would be inconsistent, shot to shot, as the striker/sear move relative to eachother. Total redesign of the lower, at best. You would also end up with a crappy trigger pull, compared to what the R51 is capable of achieving. It would be cool to have a no-manual-safety striker gun out there without a trigger drop safety lever, though
TCB
A striker fired conversion would seem to be really difficult since the bolt body tilts up and down inside there. I'm sure it could be done, but I bet the trigger would be inconsistent, shot to shot, as the striker/sear move relative to eachother. Total redesign of the lower, at best. You would also end up with a crappy trigger pull, compared to what the R51 is capable of achieving. It would be cool to have a no-manual-safety striker gun out there without a trigger drop safety lever, though
TCB
1SOW
Member
I emailed a few weeks back asking if they would be ready soon. I haven't heard a word from Remington.
In Texas, if it's a replacement pistol it appears an FFL isn't required even with a different ser. number. Some/Most others would first get asked for an FFL to transfer it to the owner..
In Texas, if it's a replacement pistol it appears an FFL isn't required even with a different ser. number. Some/Most others would first get asked for an FFL to transfer it to the owner..
Gun Master
Member
Latest rumor from Remington Owners forum...
Long time reader, first time posting.
I returned my R51 (serial # 00018XX) in early July due to primer flow issues. Overall I liked the pistol but didn’t feel comfortable with the possible overpressure. Three days ago I sent an email to Remington asking the status of my replacement pistol. I received this update yesterday:
The 2nd generation R51 Pistol was expected to release by end of month October. We received notification by the manufacturer there has been a delay on completing necessary testing and inspections of the pistols that have been produced. Currently we do not have an expected release date, we hope to have this information available over the next couple of weeks. We apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused, it was much to our own surprise as well.
Sincerely,
Customer Support
Long time reader, first time posting.
I returned my R51 (serial # 00018XX) in early July due to primer flow issues. Overall I liked the pistol but didn’t feel comfortable with the possible overpressure. Three days ago I sent an email to Remington asking the status of my replacement pistol. I received this update yesterday:
The 2nd generation R51 Pistol was expected to release by end of month October. We received notification by the manufacturer there has been a delay on completing necessary testing and inspections of the pistols that have been produced. Currently we do not have an expected release date, we hope to have this information available over the next couple of weeks. We apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused, it was much to our own surprise as well.
Sincerely,
Customer Support
Gun Master
Member
I reading into this "...., ...., pants on fire ".
JRH6856
Member
In Theory, everything works in practice. In practice, not so much. I'm beginning to believe the whole company only works in Theory.
1SOW
Member
:banghead:At least they responded to you. Mine went back much sooner. Nothing but put-offs since then.
JRH6856
Member
Maybe they contracted the 2nd Gen to someone who might actually do it right. :/Wait-aren't THEY the manufacturer?
Larry
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