Goodbye W231/HP38?

Walkalong said:

This makes sense, but it is a number of powders if "old style" powders then, not just W-231. Interesting. I wonder if Zip will go away, as it is a very close cousin, if not the same thing.

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It very well may. I've never been much of a fan of the Winchester/Hodgdon powders, except for WST, but I hate to see that come off the market. It will only strain supply of powders in it's range.

I've never been much of a fan of the Winchester/Hodgdon powders, except for WST

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Shhhh....!

That a little known...great handgun powder...we don't want that word spread around.

I would think Bullseye fits into that old technology powder since it goes back to the early 1900s. I wonder if it would be under consideration from Alliant to be replaced?
What would be nice would be the manufacturers making a replacement and saying "this replaces so and so and has the same characteristics and loads the same."

I for one would miss it. While there are other powders I could use I would hate to see it go. It wasn''t that long ago Hodgdon discontinued 7625 and 4756. 7625 was one of my favorites for cast bullets in 9mm and now it is gone. :banghead:
I have had good results with CFE pistol so far but really wish it was less dense. (higher VMD) and it's slower than HP38.

I am not a chemical engineer but I don't see how the process/waste stream could be that much different for "old" vs "new powders" The two main elements (double base) are nitro cellulose and nitro glycerin. HP38 is a flattened ball, so are Titegroup, Longshot and CFE pistol to name a few, but the shape is a mechanical issue.
(of course I am most likely wrong on this but that's the way it seems)
I did notice that at my LGS today 1lb of CFE was $23, 1lb of HP38 was $26, 1lb of Longshot was $30 so one would think there is some reason for the price difference.

Could it be that they are doing away with Win231 and still going to produce HP38 (same stuff two names, get rid of one?)


Good news is I have seen HP38 back on the shelves for the first time in over a year.

Got to get my hands on some single base Vectan to try in 9mm with cast, but that's another topic.

I'm not to concerned about 231 / HP38, but I'm not a target load type of guy either. But just the very thought pf 296 / H110 going away, that right there makes me feel kind of sick. Unless they can replace it with a similar performer, and what I mean by that, is a powder that will produce that same full throttle magnum performer, I'm gonna have a major break down of sorts.

I just saw a bunch of it on the shelf recently, and didn't buy any cause I have a good inventory, so I thought. I'm gonna go buy all I can get my hands on, store it in my -10 degree deep freeze, and hope it will last me the rest of my life. Now, if they replace it with one of their more advanced technology powders, and that powder will do everything H110/296 does, then I'll take it with a grain of salt.

GS

Wil Terry said:

THIS IS PURE USDA PRIME BS !! I just emailed my pal who is one of the HODGDON BROTHERS. And I quote;
"...yeah right...we are going to discontinue the best selling W-W pistol propellent of all time....yeah right...and we are going to discontinue the BEST selling HODGDON pistol propellent of all time...yeah right....
HAVE none of you an IQ above that of a qumquat for Crissakes ?!?!
THINK !!!
And so it goes...

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Sounds a bit like the message Getty Oil management put out about the company's solvency about a week before we were sold to Texaco.

I'm too new to the game and have yet to use any of those 2 powders. So far all I have experience with is Tightgroup, BE-86 and Power Pistol. I have W231 and HP38 in stock so maybe I'll sell them so I don't know what I'll be missing.

Today I bit the bullet… errr, swallowed the powder.

I've been using Win 231 since 1974 for the brunt of my target loads and I've always had a good supply of Win 231, but with only 4 pounds left two years ago I began looking for more. I haven’t seen 231 for the last two years so I resigned myself to the idea of using other powders.

Today I bought 18 pounds of three different powders to take 231’s place. I’m not a happy camper, but at least I’m not out of the reloading game.

My 3 favorite pistol powders are AA#2, HP38, and Bullseye. I haven't seen #2 in a long time. When my HP38 runs out I'll switch to Bullseye until it runs out. By then all the new stuff should be field tesed then I'll have a better Idea what to get.If I happen to find some of my favorites, I'll be stocking up.

Once upon a time I used 231 for everything pistol wise. These days I almost never use it. My stash of 231 is so old it's in metal cans.

Wonder what presently available powder would be a good substitute for 231? I really like that stuff in 45 ACP and 38 Special.

Although the parenthetical inference of new technology powder taking less time and generating less waste would explain the new powders I have seen introduced here lately. I've always been happy with 4895, 4350 and RL15 for rifles, and 231 or 2400 for handguns, and had been wondering why all these new introductions. This sort of explains it for me.

Perhaps Hodgdon is introducing these new choices as a prelude to discontinuing the old stand bys?

stubbicatt said:

Wonder what presently available powder would be a good substitute for 231? I really like that stuff in 45 ACP and 38 Special.

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For my money there isn't any better than AA#2.

If it's true it would be a shame. I guess I'll have to make my 35# and 2-8# kegs stretch a bit.

ljnowell said:

For my money there isn't any better than AA#2.

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I would agree with you lj but like I said I haven't seen any AA#2 for a long time. IF I get the chance I'll be stocking up when I find it. My problem is I won't pay the robbery prices on Gun Broker. My LGS is bad enough when I have to deal with him. Last powder I got from him was $32/lb but I couldn't find it anywhere else.

oldreloader said:

I would agree with you lj but like I said I haven't seen any AA#2 for a long time. IF I get the chance I'll be stocking up when I find it. My problem is I won't pay the robbery prices on Gun Broker. My LGS is bad enough when I have to deal with him. Last powder I got from him was $32/lb but I couldn't find it anywhere else.

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It's been nearly impossible. It always seemed that until the Obama craze hit AA powders were the red headed stepchild that most didn't want. When powders flew off the shelves many ended up trying them and now they are way more popular.

It makes it hard on those of us that have always loved them, lol.

gamestalker said:

I'm not to concerned about 231 / HP38, but I'm not a target load type of guy either. But just the very thought pf 296 / H110 going away, that right there makes me feel kind of sick. Unless they can replace it with a similar performer, and what I mean by that, is a powder that will produce that same full throttle magnum performer, I'm gonna have a major break down of sorts.

I just saw a bunch of it on the shelf recently, and didn't buy any cause I have a good inventory, so I thought. I'm gonna go buy all I can get my hands on, store it in my -10 degree deep freeze, and hope it will last me the rest of my life. Now, if they replace it with one of their more advanced technology powders, and that powder will do everything H110/296 does, then I'll take it with a grain of salt.

GS

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This was my concern as well although there are other good powders for .357 Magnum (my use). From his response H110W296 are not on the block for phasing out so I think we are safe at least for now.

Walkalong said:

I wonder if Zip will go away, as it is a very close cousin, if not the same thing.

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Ramshot Zip is made in Belgium not the General Dynamics plant in the USA.

Wonder what presently available powder would be a good substitute for 231? I really like that stuff in 45 ACP and 38 Special.

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Ramshot Competition is not a direct replacement for 231, but loads very well into both cartridges. If you don't have any need to load in cartridges that need a slower powder (9mm/40), then Competition is better than 231.

Walkalong said:

Is good stuff. It is very similar to WST, although my lot gave a tad more velocity per Gr than WST. When I couldn't find any WST I happily bought a four pounder of Competition.



It works pretty good in .38 Spl, among other things.

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I still need to find a lb of that to try in 38 match wadcutter loads and 45 acp.

Walkalong said:

I haven't shot it side by side with AA #2, which also shoots very well, but I am not sure I can shoot the difference. Maybe with a lot of rounds and groups I would be able to see it, maybe.



I have tried a lot of pistol powders, and AA #2 is one of the first I starting buying in four powders. IIRC, W-231 and AA #2 were the first pistol powders I bought in bulk instead of just another one pounder.

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What I found was interesting. I've loaded 45 ACP with #2 for sometime and have always been pleased with the results. At 25 yards I had no problem being very consistent and accurate. When shooting bullseye at the 50 yard line the WST consistently have me better scores and groupings.

In fact, at one point I was shooting WST loads at 50 yards for slow fire and #2 loads at 25 for timed and rapid fire targets.

The funny part is that both loads shot to point of aim even though they used two different powders and were obviously traveling at different speeds.

FWIW, I just got off the phone from a guy named Dave. In his words, HP-38 and W231 are not going away any time soon. There will be less of it, because, as mention in other post, older methods of making it. But he said it is too popular to discontinue.

Well, 231/HP38 is my go to for 9mm, .40 and .38 Spcl.

But it aint that big a deal. As long as there's Bullseye and Unique, I'll be fine I reckon.

I gotta pick up a pound of AA #2 and see what the hype is all about. I've only heard good things about it.