Papa Johns

Heh, our local John Deere dealership has their own gun shop inside in a corner of the showroom!

I'm throwing the BS flag on that one - the dealer's copping out and pretending it's someone else's choice.

I use two JD dealers in New Mexico - neither of them have a "corporate sign" banning guns in the dealership.

The dealerships are independently owned franchises - corporate JD doesn't tell them how to run their dealerships on issues like that.

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Well Mr Buck you can call BS all you want. Is there some reason you think I would fabricate a story about my JD dealership being anti-gun?

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Uhh, before you get angry and insult the man, go back and read his post again. He's saying the dealership is BSing you -- telling you that it was a corporate decision, when the company appears to have no such policy, presumably because the dealer senses it will not go over well with you if he admits that it was his decision.

Not a big deal for me since I haven't had a PJ pizza in years, but...

I have come to the conclusion that a 30.07 sign in Texas is roughly the equivalent of a "no Ethnic Basques" sign. The sign has just about zero effect in that there aren't a lot of Basque people wandering around Texas, but it reveals interesting information about whoever had it put up.

It is an indication that the management of that business has poor judgement. They incorrectly predicted the future, thinking that there would be a wave of open carry and resulting complaints. That raises questions about their business judgment in general.

It is also generally offensive in the "I'm not Basque but I don't like bigotry" sense.

Since I don't really want to do business with poorly managed outfits (quality is usually spotty or poor) nor support bigotry it is kinda nice to have a clear indicator right by the door that the management team is incompetent.

I actually posted this in a different discussion this morning before I read
"Papa Johns."

If I own a business that's a franchise and it cost me 1.5 million dollars to start the business, a 50K franchise fee and 5% of my sales to the corporation BUT I have to sign a franchise agreement that says I cant even buy ONE napkin from anybody else even if I run out and I have to post no gun signage am I anti-gun or anti-2nd amendment?

Basically am I willing to throw away the $300,000 per store I make a year by breaking the franchise agreement? I mean corporate will void my franchise agreement in a second if I use different toilet paper that I can buy for a third of the cost at Costco. Say I own 5 franchises, they would void my whole deal, I would be out of 1.5 million a year, all of my start up costs and have no income. It would rather easy to check that I have the proper signage and corporate is sneaky enough to send somebody in who would make it obvious that they were carrying. If I didn't train my managers properly I could lose my livelihood.

Sometimes things are not always black and white. BTW I'm not talking about McDonalds, they leave it to the individual franchise holders so if you see signage that is either a corporate store or the franchise holder IS anti-gun.

While this is not in Texas and definitely not Papa Johns (there are things that I refuse to eat and PJs is right below Dominos) it is something to consider. There are corporations that are anti-gun.
In Illinois the signage is anti Beretta 92. A black silhouette of a 92 with a red circle and slash through it.
NO BERETTAS ALLOWED!

A few similar thoughts have been expressed in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=798646

Alright I will tell you that I have taught my managers to show the customer the signage and ask them to leave nicely. We do not have open carry in IL and to be bluntly honest I don't want to post the signage but have to. If you are concealed carrying, keep it CONCEALED.

All of this should go down as politely as possible, I don't want a ruckus and frankly I haven't worked my butt off since college to lose my businesses. I went all in at 27 on my first business. The thing I tell my managers is the person you talking to has a gun and you don't. They are a customer but there have been a few that will raise a huge fuss. They don't want to hear about it but it's something that is taught in CCL class. I have never had anyone trespassed and no offense to CCL holders but you were taught to respect the signage. I do at other businesses because I know that they may not have a choice.

IOW there have been some screaming and shouting but when they are told the police were on the way, they left. My business gets put on a internet anti-gun list because some people can be pretty passionate about it. They don't understand it's beyond my control and I am not throwing everything away that I worked hard for even though I feel that corporate policy is wrong. The problem is corporate doesn't want to hear about it just like the insane prices they charge for basics like napkins, TP and condiments let alone guns.

BTW the only time that the police have been involved has been over "Can I have extra ketchup"? Sorry but you already took 150 packets of ketchup and emptied the container so no. The guy came over the counter, punched an employee and was "restrained". I have it on video. The guy actually tried to sue me and then corporate. I have had way more issues with condiments then guns and signage.

The "my franchise agreement made me do it" argument isn't really relevant from a customer perspective. The customer sees the business as a single entity even though as a franchise operation there may in fact be two or more distinct business entities involved. All of that stuff about franchise agreements and contractual obligations is behind the curtain. You know it because you are involved in the businesses. As far as a customer is concerned, feedback they give you ("take the sign down or I'm never coming back") should be passed up the chain to a decision maker whether that individual is associated with the franchisee or franchisor. A franchisee is seen as an agent of the franchisor just as a manager is an agent of an owner, and customers expect there to be a line of communication back from the stores to the decision makers.

noticed a huge 30.07 sign on the front door... told the manager I won't do business with them as a direct result of that sign... I'd rather support businesses that won't discriminate against my Glock.

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If you want to be noticed more than a drop of water in a bucket you should contact someone much higher on the ladder than a store manager, he forgot about you as soon as the door closed behind you, maybe cracked a joke about you to a coworker but that's about it.

First 30.07 sign I noticed was at my daughters ballet school. I took it positively myself. They recognized my right to carry as long as I kept doing it how I always have.

I am not always out an about but I haven't seen anyone OC'ing yet myself.

In any case if they really hated your Glock it wouldn't have cost them any more to make it an -06 and -07 sign...

HSO:

Explain that their sign is prejudicial and assumes that law abiding citizens can't be trusted and that real criminals won't pay any attention to it anyway.

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Ed Ames:

I have come to the conclusion that a 30.07 sign in Texas is roughly the equivalent of a "no Ethnic Basques" sign. The sign has just about zero effect in that there aren't a lot of Basque people wandering around Texas, but it reveals interesting information about whoever had it put up.
...
It is also generally offensive in the "I'm not Basque but I don't like bigotry" sense.

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I'm always disappointed that the Judiciary hasn't taken formal notice of the bigotry aspects of localities denying or limiting or infringing on what is a fundamental civil right.

I have a dream.

Down with poll taxes.

Et cetera.

Terry, 230RN

The "my franchise agreement made me do it" argument isn't really relevant from a customer perspective. The customer sees the business as a single entity even though as a franchise operation there may in fact be two or more distinct business entities involved. All of that stuff about franchise agreements and contractual obligations is behind the curtain. You know it because you are involved in the businesses. As far as a customer is concerned, feedback they give you ("take the sign down or I'm never coming back") should be passed up the chain to a decision maker whether that individual is associated with the franchisee or franchisor. A franchisee is seen as an agent of the franchisor just as a manager is an agent of an owner, and customers expect there to be a line of communication back from the stores to the decision makers.

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Absolutely but when corporate says this OUR policy, you are kind of stuck with it. Illinois is a relatively new comer to the whole carry issue. A memo was issued two years ago. I think it would take a bunch of franchise owners to get the policy changed if that's even possible. The decision makers think it's going to be the wild west but it really is not that much of an issue. Yes things should go up the ladder to the top but when the founder is anti-gun, no chance.

I think Papa John's has great pizza. I will not stop going there because of a sign. Not that big of a deal to me.

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That is very sad.

If I own a business that's a franchise and it cost me 1.5 million dollars to start the business, a 50K franchise fee and 5% of my sales to the corporation BUT I have to sign a franchise agreement that says I cant even buy ONE napkin from anybody else even if I run out and I have to post no gun signage am I anti-gun or anti-2nd amendment?

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So you will refuse to sell to the Jews because the C.E.O. said not to.

What are the chances that the manager told the corporate office about one person?

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^^^^^^^

Two chances, Slim and None.

Word has it that 'slim' just left town....so that leaves NONE.

Not a bad place to start...when you have a concern (local management), but certainly follow up...by going to upper management, or corporate.

Amazing that people really believe that someone who wants to commit mass murder will be stopped by a sign. I guess the lawyers think that if they say "no guns" they will escape liability for the actions of people who don't obey the laws or the signs.

Jim

A 30-07 sign is for open carry, not concealed. I carry every day, but not open, and quite honestly don't understand why anyone would want to.

I know, I'm just a FUDD and obviously not pro 2A.

IL Guns said:

Alright I will tell you that I have taught my managers to show the customer the signage and ask them to leave nicely. We do not have open carry in IL and to be bluntly honest I don't want to post the signage but have to. If you are concealed carrying, keep it CONCEALED.

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Right. I go to tons of places that have no gun signs. When I see when I just make sure that my shirt is in the right spot or I am wearing one of my longer ones. Anti gun signs do not carry the weight of law in this state. If I am "made" (happened at a strip club) I can be asked to leave. Refusal is trespassing and that the police would be involved in.

Why don't you just carry concealed and not notice the sign?

So you will refuse to sell to the Jews because the C.E.O. said not to.

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I wouldn't have bought the franchise in the first place if there was flagrant racism. Plus how would I know you're Jewish? An added bonus is this is something that is rather new to my State. Like I said KEEP IT CONCEALED. It's really quite two separate things and not a good comparison at all.

You say you would not brought a franchise if the company practiced "flagrant racism" by not serving Jews yet you brought a franchise in a company that you knew prohibits citizens from exercising their legal right of self-defense with a firearm while in your store. And you state you must strictly follow corporate policy or lose your franchise.

In addition I don't see you are providing armed security to protect your customers.

Do you electric locks on your entrances so customers can be screened before being allowed to come into your store?

We have come a long way since October 16, 1991. Your corporation and yourself have chose to ignore the lesson form that day. Telling me to not to carry (wink, wink) yet spend my money in your business that does not support my beliefs just doesn't cut it with me.

Domestic terrorism came too close to home last Thursday with 4 dead and another14 wounded. It is our policy for me to always carry whenever we go out for any reason (even visiting relatives). My wife doesn't carry because of security concerns about carrying in her purse but she can run my gun just fine if need be.

Calling this one "asked and answered".....