Mouse Gun Better Than Mace?

Relevant:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...after-being-shot-by-one.818378/#post-10494944

I am sorry that you are experiencing this problem.

I would choose the handgun, any handgun, over any form of mace, but that is only my opinion so take it for what it is worth.

CommanderCrusty said:

I'm planning to sell off all the guns that hurt my hands (due to a muscle disorder, these guns, in my hands, have a stinging recoil). That includes my LCP, LCR and P345. I'm tired of fighting with my equipment at the range. At the same time, I feel uncomfortable carrying a pistol I literally can't stand to put 50 rounds through, and that I know from my targets I don't shoot well beyond 10-15 feet.

So, what's the problem?

I miss my mouse guns! Well, the ease of carry. Usually, I just strap on a 5" 1911 or 4" GP100, but sometimes it's a can of Mace, a sturdy knife or a flashlight.

So, is an LCP with 7 shots really a better choice than Mace, knife or light? I am confident with the weapon at 10 feet and can hit targets at that range with basically no practice.

So, what would you carry, if you could not, or would not, use it much beyond arms length?

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Probably without realizing it, you are comparing apples to oranges. Chemical irritants, electric weapons and tactical flashlights are non lethal force options. Firearms and knives are lethal options. The reason you carry lethal options are to stop deadly threats. Chemical irritants, etc., are inappropriate choices to deal with deadly threats.

There is a reaction time that takes non lethal options to take effect; sometimes they don't work at all. Dealing with an attacker attacking with a baseball bat, a knife or gun, anything less than a firearm, any firearm, is not to be relied upon.

There are many instances that a firearm does not stop the confrontation, largely due to where the bullets land on the attacker. In that "wait time", that you are waiting for nonlethal options to take effect,, or poorly paced bullets to take its toll due to blood loss, your attacker it still hitting, chopping, slashing or shooting....YOU!

My advise, and take it for what it's worth, carry your mouse gun and be happy. When I was a kid helping to butcher livestock, that whole thing was started with a .22 bullet to the brain. Instant stoppage of all coordinated body function. That's what you want to stop an attacker; the key is shot placement. Shots in the frontal brain, and spinal column down to the shoulders are fight stoppers. Those hits are easily made with smaller caliber handguns at social distances. I hope this helps.

Here is a hint... 'Mace', or pepper spray, is not useful if the wind is in your face. An LCP is.

'Mace', or pepper spray, is not useful inside a car. An LCP is.

'Mace', or pepper spray, is not useful past 5 yards. An LCP is.

'Mace', or pepper spray, is not as useful if the guy is on the other side of a car/table/desk... An LCP is.

'Mace', or pepper spray, is not useful if the other guy has a gun and is outside the range of the 'Mace'. An LCP is.

Now I'd say go ahead and carry some 'Mace', or pepper spray, but I'd pack that LCP to!

Deaf

Another vote for the LCP.

That being said, I knew I would not shoot it well enough for my satisfaction when I was shopping for a pocket-gun for carry. I selected the Kel-Tec P32 instead for its lower recoil/flip, extra round in capacity, and last-shot slide-lock features. Also, adding KT's 10-round magazine makes it that much easier in the hand.

If even that were too uncomfortable, I'd switch to my Taurus PT-25 or my PT-22. Heck, if it came down to it, even my old Jennings J22 could come along.

And, as mentioned, there's no rule (in most jurisdictions, at least) against having both choices.

So, is an LCP with 7 shots really a better choice than Mace, knife or light? I am confident with the weapon at 10 feet and can hit targets at that range with basically no practice

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Yes, it is. I've been maced and pepper sprayed a few times and I was still able to function (when it was in a training setting) and to continue fighting (when it was not).

As for the knife someone using a knife has to stab someone several times to equal out to the same blood loss and hits to vital organs from one gunshot wound.

I've been an EMT for quite a long time now (since the late 90's) and I've never gone on a call where one stab wound resulted in the death or incapacitation of the patient, but I've gone on several where one small caliber gunshot wound resulted in the patient ultimately dying or where they were completely incapacitated and would have been unable to keep on fighting.

The few stabbing victims that I've seen that died or were incapacitated both at the scene and for the transport had all been stabbed more than a dozen times. In one case almost 40 individual stab wounds.

I've also been stabbed before (both hands and the abdomen) and I was still able to function and fight back.

A light (as in a flashlight) is more of a distraction rather than a weapon. In the same basic category as in verbal commands.

So I'd say yes.
If you're going to carry a mouse gun I'd work on the accuracy part of it a bit more though.

I dunno.....my mouse is no pleasure to shoot and it's a steel frame with some weight to it....Guardian .380....actually it hurts my trigger finger at times. But it is what it is....a "Get Off Me" gun, up close and personal.

Out of curiosity, do you have a (reliable) .22 LR mouse gun? At some point, better placement/capacity/follow up shots beats the effectiveness of the better energy of something like a .380. If you shoot a .22 LR so much better, it might be worth it for you to use that instead of a .380.

I do not trust pepper spray (I use Sabre Red) for deadly threats. I carry it for dogs when I am cycling, and when I am in a restrictive state.

Why not try an autoloader or revolver in .32 caliber?

You'd be looking at an antique for the most part, but shooters can be had for substantially less than collectibles.

A .32 in your hand beats the 10mm you left at home...

This is a complex topic. Although I agree with JeffG's take about comparing apples to oranges, in terms of using less lethals vs lethal tools and weapons, I think it is a mistake to automatically discard one over the other.

In my opinion, temporarily removing a potential threats ability to see and/or breathe is the *second* most effective means to stop a threat. Second only to a direct CNS strike. A simply case for this can be made by looking at an ongoing thread about a recent tragedy here:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ody-armors-kills-2-women-in-shoot-out.818299/

Looking at this situations with the benefit of hindsight, the home should have been fortified and a multilayered defense plan should have been implemented, but putting all of your eggs in one basket is rarely a good thing. Once the handguns failed to stop the attacker (because of body armor and other factors), then what? What was plan B? I'm confident that an OC product or another "sight remover" would have been extremely beneficial in that situation, provide the women had the right products and training.

I disagree with a lot of what was written about OC in this thread, and can elaborate if the OP so chooses. That said, I would lean toward you continuing the to carry the LCP (or whatever firearm you are most comfortable/competent with), and also carry an OC product and a good tactical flashlight, which I feel are extremely underrated.

I think I'd want to try a heavier and/or larger pistol in an attempt to mitigate recoil. Browning is selling a 1911-style pistol made for the .380 ACP cartridge that might be attractive to you. OK, it's attractive to me. It is reportedly 15% smaller than a regular 1911. I've been in construction for over thirty-five years and the joints in my fingers and tendons in my hands are barking ever louder and that pistol is one I'm considering. Then again, I am quite used to carrying Commander-sized 1911s, so maybe I'm prejudiced. Those really small pistols seem to bite my hand in 9mm and 9mm Short (.380). I have a tiny ParaOrd 9mm and a NAA Guardian in .380 and I hate both of them. I'm hoping to find one at a range to rent to see just how soft or not it shoots.

I have no faith in sprays. I was a temporary summer replacement postal worker many years ago. I emptied a can of issued spray on two dogs who blew straight through the screen on a screen door to attack me. That darn stuff was no darn good at all. Despite the spray and the heavy leather mail carrier's bag I had with which to defend myself, I still got bit. No sprays for me.

I hope you find a solution to your defensive needs.

In the vein of JeffG's great post about "apples/oranges" I'll go further down that road.

Weapons/tools should be viewed objectively in terms of what they do (advantages and disadvantages) in light of what the goal and likely parameters of use are (distance, threat level etc.)

So firearms injure either by instant incapacitation to the CNS or through blood loss/lack of O2 to brain by hitting major organs or vessels. Key advantage: it's a projectile weapon and can injure at a distance! Key disadvantage, CNS shots are hard which leaves blood loss. People shot through the heart still have enough fight left in them (7-30 seconds), to stab or beat you to death. You also have to know anatomy and be able to place your shots under stress.

Edged weapons: injure by damaging the vascular system, internal bleeding. As lethal as a gun to the CNS or heart/major vessels, BUT you have to be at contact range and have to know anatomy (see the EMT's post above).

Impact weapons: injure by blunt force trauma (breaking bones/joints). Advantage-instant effects at the point of injury. Break the knee, they just lost a leg etc. Disadvantage, have to be at almost contact range, have to know anatomy.

OC: injures (temporarily) by affecting breathing and vision. Advantages are it is non-permanent and it has standoff. Easy to use (don't have to know anatomy). Disadvantages-have to be closer than with a gun, may not work, wind, effects may be delayed if they are intoxicated.

H2H. Injures by knockout to CNS, breaking joints, breaking smaller bones (ribs, clavicle), effecting breathing (throat, groin, solar plexus), vision (eye strikes). Advantages, a full-force strike causes immediate injury and takes their balance, giving you opportunity to deliver another. Disadvantage-have to be at contact range, have to know anatomy and how to strike with enough force to break things.

So, depending on the scenario (and the person), any of the above can be a better choice than the other. For example: if I turn around to a gun pointed to my head at arm's length. My choices are comply, run, or H2H. I will not choose to take time to draw any tool when their gun is already out. I will immediately strike to injure and take their balance, then seize on that moment to deploy a tool, follow up with another H2H strike, or run (all situation dependent).

Resist Evil said:

I have no faith in sprays. I was a temporary summer replacement postal worker many years ago. I emptied a can of issued spray on two dogs who blew straight through the screen on a screen door to attack me. That darn stuff was no darn good at all.

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The spray you most likely used was Halt, and is nothing like "human sprays." It is like comparing a slingshot to a bazooka.

Commander Crusty wrote:
So, what would you carry, if you could not, or would not, use it much beyond arms length?

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I currently do not carry any gun on a daily basis. This is due to some rather draconian gun restrictions by my employer (including prohibiting guns or even ammunition in cars in the parking lot) and since I'm 324 days from retirement and need to keep my health insurance, I don't do anything to jeopardize that.

Still, I did once use an RG-25 pistol in 25 ACP; a quintessential "mouse gun". I have fired it 77 times since 1981 and none of those times was in anger. Still, I know from firing short strings every five years or so that the pistol is reliable and can readily hit the circular divot on the side of a milk jug at 15 feet. In a couple of situations; once where it was in my cash box, and once where I was in the proverbial "dark alley", merely producing the pistol was enough to make the bad guy decide to retreat. Based on my experiences, my opinion is that any gun is better than no gun if it comes to a situation where the need to resort to deadly force presents itself.

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In my view, there is not; however, a universal answer to this question. You will have to pick the best course of action based on the resouces available and the situations in which you anticipate using them, knowing that your resources may not be approriate and the situation may be one you did not anticipate.

• If you are faced with an assailant who is well armed, has the element of suprise and left home that day intent on taking your life no matter what, then you probably won't be able to get to whatever gun you have - "mouse gun" or "cannon" in time to save your life.
• On the other hand, if you are faced with an assailant that may or may not be armed, is only after your possessions or your money and just wants out of a stressful situation, then you have a chance to employ deadly force (if it really comes to that) and a "mouse gun" may be all that's needed.
• And then there's everything in between.

At least in your case, with the "mouse gun" you won't hesitate to fire (if necessary) because of subconscious concerns about pain. I say "if necessary" because it isn't always necessary to shoot.

I was once confronted with a knife-wielding mugger who appeared to be coming down from a drug trip and as far as I could tell was just after some cash to get high again. I keep a $20 wrapped around some $5s and $1s in my front pocket for just this kind of situation. So, while I engaged him in conversation, I slowly produced the wad of cash, handed it to him and he retreated - leaving me to file a police report but otherwise not have to take a trip through the court system regarding the validity of shooting him.

I recognize that it could have gone differently. He might have thought I was going to a weapon rather than cash, but I judged the situation to favor giving him $32 rather than trying to fight. It was a situation I had anticipated and my judgement and preparation turned out to be correct. The next time it might not be.

If you can't shoot the LCP then what good is it to you? You have to be accurate because you're responsible for where the bullet goes. I have no idea what your targets look like but I guarantee they won't look any better under stress. I would ditch the LCP and find a firearm a bit larger that you can shoot well and carry fairly easily too. Perhaps the LC9 or equivalent would be better for you.

The problem with comparing a firearm with OC spray is you're comparing a deadly weapon with one that isn't. They're tools for different jobs. I'd hate to rely on a non deadly force weapon in a deadly force confrontation. However, based on personal experience and watching others, quality OC spray is no joke. Most people can still fight but they're at a major disadvantage when you can barely see or breath.

If you must resort to a knife or even worse a flashlight to defend yourself you have made a far more serious tactical error than having to use a hand gun. However, if you need a firearm, you need a firearm. Not a knife or a flashlight. Both are waaaay too up close and personal. As in 'Friggin' dangerous' without extensive training and practice.
"...can't stand to put 50 rounds through..." You need something you like.

Modern day flashlights also have an advantage down range. Obviously (and especially) in low light, but most are bright enough to at least make it extremely difficult to focus on a moving target, buying some time. 1000 lumens in the peepers is no joke.

I lost all faith in pepper spray the day I got certified to carry it. The trainer sprayed me, I ran right at him, grabbed him, and put him on his ***.

I can't post the link because of the language but go to YouTube and search "OC Spray female marine Douglas" you will find a video of a female Marine, named Douglas (did not see that coming) going through OC certification.

She is sprayed and it takes a full minute for the spray to have ANY effect. She literally looks at the trainer and says "This is it?". When it finally DOES take affect she goes through a reaction course where she fights off one guy with bare hands, one guy with a baton, she knocks down a red man and puts him in a handcuff position and THEN they decon her.

I told you my experience, I was not incapacitated in any meaningful way by Saber Red. I have absolutely no faith in OC spray's effectiveness as a defensive weapon.

There's no way I'd carry both OC spray AND a gun. My primary reason is that I think it's worthless but it's just one more pain in the *** thing to lug around. Another reason is that if (God forbid) I ever have to shoot someone I don't want to have to answer "You had pepper spray, why didn't you just use that?" You know the EXACT question they ask every time a cop shoots someone.

As I private citizen I'm not required to stand and fight, I can run. If things are so bad that I can't run they're probably bad enough that it's time to shoot.

That's my rationale. If you want to carry OC that's your call but I think you should be exposed so you know exactly what the effects are.

Carrying mace or pepper spray makes sense. Not every SD confrontation is properly solved with a firearm. Mace is of little use if your opponent is armed with a deadly weapon. While a mouse gun is far from the best option it can:

1. Work to eliminate the problem.
2. If it fails at #1 you have a viable weapon to at least bluff your way out.

The object of SD is to get away from your assailant. If you get away unhurt you've won. You do not have to conquer your assailant.

22s,25s,32s,and 380s can work. There are too many incidents where they did work to ignore this fact.

My "mouse gun" is my Glock 43. It's pretty much on my hip all my waking hours. That's just the lowest threshold I have set for myself. I have, loaded and ready to go a Glock 23 with TLR1 in a grab and go bag in the house. At minimum I wear the 23 at the range while shooting other guns; I'm very good with it. If I'm in the woods, I ADD a Ruger Vaquero 44 mag to the belt. Having been an OC and TASER instructor, I'm not comfortable with the failure rate I have seen for either in stopping attackers.

OC-Trainer said:

They used weak product, you started with your eyes closed and holding your breath, you had someone walking you through the course, the instructor doesn't fight back, etc, etc, etc,
Sorry to burst your bubble. If you want to prove it, we can set something up. Otherwise, we can just agree to disagree.

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They used standard Saber Red right off MY belt. They sprayed me with eyes and mouth open. In fact they made me keep my eyes open and because of a deviated septum I HAD to keep my mouth open.

Immediately after I was sprayed I ran straight at the trainer, hit his pad once then grabbed him and threw him with a rolling hip lock. The other trainers had to pull me off of him.

You weren't at my certification don't presume to comment intelligently on it

You weren't at my certification don't presume to comment intelligently on it

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You're right, I wasn't...but I've been to a literally a thousand like them, and even help develop some. I know the drill. The courses are set up for success.

We can just leave it at that...

OC-Trainer said:

You're right, I wasn't...but I've been to a literally a thousand like them, and even help develop some. I know the drill. The courses are set up for success.

We can just leave it at that...

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Oh good God. If I just bow before your omniscient knowledge will you shut up?

Trunk Monkey said:

Oh good God. If I just bow before your omniscient knowledge will you shut up?

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I'm trying to be respectful of the OP and this thread. That's why I said things like "We can agree to disagree" and "let's just leave it at that."

But if you want to keep at it, let's set up a little OC test and put your eyes where your mouth is. Direct message me.