Polymer guns that like steel cased and those that dont?

If a modern defensive pistol chokes on steel case fmj it's probably not worth having.


If memory serves Tula used a glock 17 chamber as reference when engineering their ammo as well.

I've never had a quality poly 9 or .45 choke on steel cased ammo. I did have some issues getting steel .45 to run through my 1911s at times, but my Glock 21 ate it like candy.

Every 9mm Glock I have owned ran Tula just fine.

The only issue I ever had with steel ammo was in .380. My LCP (wouldn't cycle it) and my BG380 would sometimes need another snap of the hammer get it to fire. Oddly enough, the oft frowned upon Beretta Pico has never had an ammo malfunction in 400 rounds.

My glocks eat that stuff like candy.

My TP9SA and LC9s get Tula almost exclusively, mainly because it's more accurate for me than anything else I've tried. The fact that it's dirt cheap is just icing on the cake.

Never any problems with functioning.

Pardon a dumb question, but how does the material of the frame affect a pistol's ability to use steel-cased ammunition? Flexing during extraction or something? But if it's flexing at all, isn't that a big problem?

None of them like it. All of them will shoot it.

"Steel cased" doesn't really explain what is actually going on in some firearms. I've been breaking in a Kahr CW380 with steel cased to show that brand can handle it. No malfunctions with chambering and firing it at all.

However - "steel cased" usually means "underpowered" or "economy" loads. That pistol I run it thru won't lock back on the last round, but will with decent defensive ammo in a brass case. The major difference isn't the case - it's the powder load and how much pressure it's developing. That has been and continues to be a significant issue with self loading firearms, so much so it's the reason standards were first introduced. Revolvers weren't sensitive to it at all, but an auto loader MUST impart a minimum amount of power to properly cycle the slide or bolt group. Yet this is consistently ignored by many shooters.

I get a lot of car owners who ignore it about the gas they pump into the tank, who then come in with codes about poor operation which point it out. But, no, low price gas is too attractive for them, they prefer to buy an additive which supplements what it should be doing already, and the cost per tankful is just the same as if they bought the better grade.

Same for shooters, they tune the gun with exotic plating, change the springs, alter the operation, all to shoot cheap junk ammo flawlessly. No thought what they should expect is junk ammo to shoot poorly in the first place. You get what you pay for. As for my slide not locking back shooting steel cased, some would tell me to take it back and demand a new gun or refund. We've read similar here and elsewhere. No, what needs to happen is to shoot quality ammo thru it and voila, I get reliable functioning. Whoda thought?

Steel case might wear the chamber and extractor a bit more, the more important point is that across the board, it's not an upper tier powder and bullet construction in the first place. Won't be if a low price point is the goal. I don't worry about the steel case as much as the poor ballistic performance. Good enough to hit a target on the range but I certainly don't see anyone deliberately using it in competition or defense.

Unless of course it's all they issue you and good luck with that.

My Glock 23 never liked Wolf steel cased ammo. I had to put a dowel down the barrel more than once to extract a spent cartridge. Once I had an unfired round stuck, that wasn't fun.

The round count on my 5 year old 9mm Glock 19 is nearing 1500 rounds. I'd bet ninety percent of that was steel cased stuff, and mostly Wolf brand. Have yet to have any problems. Never hesitated to stock up on that stuff because even before I owned any polymer pistol I've seen Glocks that have digested huge amounts of steel case stuff without problems. Wolf also has 9mm in what they call their "Wolf Gold" line which features brass cases and a 147 gr. JHP bullet. I've got a bunch of that for when I carry the G-19 but for general range use and practice use it's pretty much all steel case. I spend less money and still have good accuracy and zero functioning / cycling issues.

bassjam said:

My Glock 23 never liked Wolf steel cased ammo. I had to put a dowel down the barrel more than once to extract a spent cartridge. Once I had an unfired round stuck, that wasn't fun.

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Something's wrong! Glock chambers have a slightly oversized ID. This is one of the reasons why steel cases usually work so well in Glock's factory barrels. My suggestion would be to do one, or both, of two things: (1) Get the chamber polished, and/or (2) change the extractor claw, SLB, and EDP spring. Steel cases really shouldn't be sticking inside of a factory barrel's chamber.

Glock Doctor said:

Glock chambers have a slightly oversized ID. This is one of the reasons why steel cases usually work so well in Glock's factory barrels

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So that's the reason those Glocks I've seen + my own G-19 have no problems with steel case ammo? I never knew the exact reason but there are some Glocks out there that have seen enormous amounts of steel case stuff with no reported problems. That's why I never worried about it when I got my Gen 3, G-19 brand new. Only caution I've ever heard was to not run cast bullets through the factory barrel because of the different rifling design in the bore. I've done some 9mm handloads, (less than 100 so far) but all those were the typical jacketed bullet format; with brass cases of course.

Monac said:

Pardon a dumb question, but how does the material of the frame affect a pistol's ability to use steel-cased ammunition? Flexing during extraction or something? But if it's flexing at all, isn't that a big problem?

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The frame is not affected by steel cases. The ejector & extractor are affected. Steel cases cause accelerated wear & breakage.

Ive never seen a handgun that has issues with steel beyond bad ammo, and by that I mean when the primers don't work, or the cases are under charged. Steel ammo is a lower quality overall.I had a box of steel case 9mak that had almost no powder in it. Just enough to put a bullet half way, and spray unburned powder all over. Steel does not make a horrible case material, just that most steel is loader with low standards. The only big issues iv'e seen with steel is in .223 rilfes, and only because the steel case brands are too low pressure for obturation, and jam the chamber with blowback. never an issue with pistols. The steel 223 ive chronoes run 55 gr at around 2500 - 2700 FPS BTW.

JohnKSa said:

I'd be interested to have you present a review of the chamber pressure data you measured during your testing. I've already seen the review of the pressure data taken by a licensed forensic engineer who says he doesn't recommend trying to do it and I'd like to see how yours differs from his.

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Everything is OK, and the shooter will think everything is OK....until something bad happens.

JohnKSa said:

I'd be interested to have you present a review of the chamber pressure data you measured during your testing. I've already seen the review of the pressure data taken by a licensed forensic engineer who says he doesn't recommend trying to do it and I'd like to see how yours differs from his.

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Come on, John, give me a break! I’m not a scientist; nor do I have access to a ballistics laboratory. (Although I used to have access to the ballistics laboratory at Picatinny Arsenal; and, in years past, I was able to get answers to various reloading questions from them.)

Let me be even more frank: I don’t care what some scientist has cooked up or played around with on his HP scientific calculator. I used to earn my living by interpreting and manipulating numbers, factual data, and statistics. For many years, now, I’ve also known that anytime you give identical data sets to three different scientists, it’s entirely possible to obtain three completely different (frequently numerically well supported) results. THAT is people, John.

The intellectual challenge you present has a certain force-of-appeal to it; however, out in the real world, the usual diversity of opinion continues to apply; and — in accord with varying materials, procedures, and individual practices — each of our divergent opinions may be either true, or false. It all depends, Sir. This particular discussion has, as I’m sure you know, been going on for many years. Different critics and different conclusions abound.

Now, with this being said: What any particular scientist might warn about using lead bullets in a factory-standard Glock pistol is refuted — again, out in the real world — by not just hundreds, but by thousands of everyday Glock pistol users. I am one of those Glock shooters who, as I’ve previously mentioned, KNOWS HOW to shoot lead bullets through a factory-stock Glock barrel; and I can do it repeatedly, all day long, and without mishap.

(I don’t know the pressure, John; but I do know that neither my Glock, nor the fired cases I’ve run through it show signs of any overpressure discharge — OK.)

What follows is something little ol’ me wrote several years ago in reply to a similar question about whether or not lead bullets can be used safely in a factory-stock Glock. In brief the correct, or most viable, answer is IT DEPENDS! Ready? Here we go:

Glock factory barrels tend to be generously proportioned. A not too hard .452” swaged lead bullet should shoot without excessive leading. Berry plated lead bullets are .452” in diameter. I’ve run many thousands of them through both of my G-21’s; all without a problem, and in front of fairly hot powder charges, too.

Generally I usually shoot 230 grain RN, .451” jacketed, and .452” plated bullets through my own G-21's. If your swaged lead bullets have a Brinell Hardness Number greater than, say, 13 or 14 (admittedly a rarity in commercial swaged bullets) then you should be able to use a Glock pistol with a factory-stock barrel in order to shoot the same bullets; and barrel leading shouldn’t be a significant problem.

The general rule is that most — but, as usual with Glock pistols, NOT all — Glocks are designed to feed .451” RN bullets; and other bullet shapes may, or may not feed well. Glock chamber mouths have excessive rebates; and, although tighter now than they used to be, the case heads are only minimally supported. I’ve fired several magazines of hard cast lead SWC bullets through a G-21 exactly once.

They all fed perfectly; and there was no barrel leading; but, they were also correctly hard enough — OK. In fact, I remember testing those bullets with my own expedient little field test; and I wasn't able to easily scratch any of them with a knife blade! (I’d guesstimate the BHN to be between 14 and 18.)

My own suggestion would be to load up a half dozen, or so, ‘trial rounds’ with a typical RN bullet configuration and, then, try running them through your factory-stock Glock. The only bullet configuration I’m pessimistic about is the FP's. You’ve just got to try it, and see what happens.

There is, by the way, NO REAL ISSUE with shooting HARD-CAST lead bullets in a Glock polygonal rifled barrel. Glock, GmbH is the only pistol manufacturer that uses cold-forged polygonal barrels AND, also, warns against shooting lead.* However, considering the limited experience of a typical Glock owner that’s, probably, a very wise decision on the Glock factory’s part.

Now with the above provisos kept well in mind, and as I’m sure you, yourself, already know: There are tens-of-thousands of Glock owners out there who regularly fire HARD-CAST lead bullets through their Glock pistols.

Me? Well, while I was still handloading, I did this for more than a decade; and, for any other WELL EXPERIENCED cartridge handloader/reloader who wants to try shooting lead bullets through a Glock pistol, I’d suggest that — until a handloader correctly knows what he’s got — simply watch all of the fired cartridge cases for signs of overpressure.

Watch the Glock slide’s RTB, too; and if it starts to do something like ‘chatter’ towards the end of the cycle, or not to completely close then STOP SHOOTING and carefully check the entire barrel for signs of premature lead buildup.

Any one, or all, of the above mentioned items can be tough for an inexperienced shooter to recognize and/or to do. One precaution a new lead bullet user needs to know is to: Never, ever, do something as incredibly stupid as firing off a few JHP rounds in order to ‘ iron out’ any visible leading that might be noticed! (THAT doesn’t work, OK!) If excessive leading starts to build up after, say, 25 - 50 rounds, then, stop and physically wet-scrub the barrel out.

If I were unsure about a particular lead bullet, I’d stop and check the bore for visible signs of leading, say, every 6 to 12 fired rounds and until I knew, for certain, the suitability (the actual viability) of whatever I was firing. Shooting lead bullets in a Glock generally means:

(1) Keeping bullet velocities at or even well below 1,100 fps. (Depends on the caliber.)

(2) Lubing the lead bullets with Alox, and/or using a gas check on the bullets’ bases.

(3) Using the correct (predetermined) diameter lead bullet for your particular barrel. Generally, you don’t want to be more than .001” over the actual bore diameter; but, depending upon the actual diameter, .002” (or even larger) can be doable.

(A knowledgeable handloader/reloader will recognize the importance of ‘slugging’ the intended barrel in order to know what the actual bore diameter is that he’s going to be working with.)

(4) Staying away from soft swaged (commercial lead wire) bullets with a BHN below 12.

(5) Regularly check the bore for leading while you’re shooting. (The correct way to do this is to use a brush and solvent, OK!)

(6) A final suggestion: Keep the C.O.A.L. between 1.250” - 1.260”

I’m, also, going to direct your attention to a 2013 thread from Glock Talk. In particular, please notice Reply #8. Is there an additional precaution I would recommend to someone who is thinking about shooting lead bullets through a Glock for the first time?

Yes, there is! There are numerous, potentially dangerous variables involved in shooting lead bullets through a Glock, including important considerations like:

(1) The exact type of polygonal rifling being used. (Yeah, it’s not all the same!)

(2) Whether or not the barrel's bore has been Tenifer treated.

(3) The exact hardness of whatever lead bullets are used.

(4) The amount and type of the selected powder charge.

(5) The correct size of the bullet and, in particular, the exact OD of the lead bullet in relationship to the bore’s actual diameter.

(Leading will develop on BOTH ends of this transaction: If the bullet is either too large or too hard, barrel temperatures will rise, and ‘smearing’ and/or base erosion (leading) will occur. If the bullet is too small then ‘blow by’ will start to happen and, again, leading will occur.)

All things considered I’m going to harken back to two of my original statements:

Please excuse me if I don’t want to get into shooting HARD CAST lead bullets through a standard Glock factory barrel in this thread. Suffice it to say that: IF YOU KNOW HOW IT CAN BE DONE, AND DONE SAFELY.

And, can (or should) someone attempt to fire lead bullets through his Glock?

In brief the correct, or most viable, answer is IT DEPENDS!

Certainly any brand new and largely inexperienced ‘Glockeroo’ — Which, from what I’m able to tell, is what most typical Glock purchasers are — should NOT be fooling around with attempting to use lead bullets in his brand new Glock. The above information is only intended for experienced pistoleros and handloader/reloaders who actually know what they’re supposed to be doing with Glock pistols and lead bullets.

Shooting lead bullets in a Glock would NOT be a problem for someone like me; however, it might be a problem for someone else like, say: You, a somewhat skeptical gun writer like Pat Sweeney, or a ‘licensed forensic engineer’, who might know a heck of a lot about forensic engineering, but diddly-squat about manufacturing his own small arms ammunition.

As I’ve repeatedly said, John: IT ALL DEPENDS!


* Since I originally wrote the above reply Heckler & Koch has come out with a similar warning against the use of all lead bullets in their (modified) polygonal pistol barrels. Why? I’d say it’s just, ‘good business’ on H&K’s part.

Magnum Research, and CZ-USA — who also use (modified) polygonal pistol barrels — have, as yet, not issued such a warning; and given the considerable state of general ignorance about handloading among a majority of the pistol shooting public — and, in particular, first time pistol buyers — I'd say increasingly common manufacturers’ warnings against the use of ANY AND ALL lead bullets in polygonal barrels are, quite possibly, prudent general recommendations for most pistol purchasers to follow.

They are touch on extractors. Frankly the price difference isn't worth it.

The problem is not really the gun - it is the use of steel for cases. Brass cases will expand on firing and then shrink back down for easy extraction. Steel will expand and then not shrink back down. This is why brass was chosen many years ago for cartridges. My advice is to simply not use steel cased ammunition unless it is the only thing you can find.

JohnKSa said:

That's a mischaracterization. The research I referred to was performed by a licensed forensic engineer (Mark Passamaneck) specializing in failure analysis and with considerable firearms experience.

He is a competitor and experienced reloader, in addition to his technical background.

The testing involved blowing up more than one Glock and required firing literally thousands of rounds through Glocks, other similar pistols, and test barrels. Thousands of rounds through Glock pistols instrumented to record real-world data including chamber pressure.

The engineer could have made an identical statement up until the point that his personal Glock blew as a result of firing lead bullets through it. It was, in fact, that incident which led him to begin the investigation.

I believe that his initial goal was to prove that the pistol was faulty and recover damages from Glock. He ended up being driven to a different conclusion.

You sound like a very thorough person. Very similar to the engineer who did the analysis, in fact. It is apparent that you feel you’ve been a lot more thorough than he was and that you know a lot more about firearms and reloading than he does, but I think you would not only benefit from reading his analysis but that you would also enjoy it.

You might do a quick internet search of his name before you become absolutely convinced that there's nothing left for you to learn on this topic.

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Yup, Years ago I used to correspond with ‘MarkCO’ (Mark Passamaneck). I even remember him telling about the time he ‘kaBoomed!’ his (I believe) Glock Model 22. He’s a good and a knowledgeable fellow upon whom I certainly don’t want to cast any negative aspersions. I mean, heck, I’ve learned from this man; and still appreciate his help on several different issues!

Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that I agree with him on the issue of using lead bullets in a factory-stock Glock pistol.

The straightforward fact is that my own real world experience runs contrary to some of the conclusions that have been drawn from this particular project. MarkCO’s results and the conclusions he’s drawn might — might — be valid for many Glock pistol shooters; however, there are many more pistol shooters out there in the ‘general universe’ of Glock owners who would not and do not agree. I am one of them; and there’s nothing in my shooting experience with Glock pistols that might cause me to otherwise agree.

The point I would make is that: While I strongly agree there are plenty of Glock owner/shooters out there whom I would definitely NOT recommend to attempt using lead bullets in their Glocks, there are, at the same time, plenty of other veteran pistol shooters and handloaders whose personal experience and technical knowledge is such that they can, do, and have been shooting lead through their Glock pistols for many years, now, without any sort of untoward incident; and, again, I am one of them; (or I was until I, more recently, gave up reloading).

So if nothing else can be universally agreed, what can be said with certainty is that the conclusions drawn by this study are NOT consistently indicative of the overall results pistol shooters throughout the community of Glock owners have obtained. I’ll even carry my opinion one step further for you: I would think it obvious that:

MORE SHOOTERS HAVE FIRED LEAD BULLETS THROUGH THEIR GLOCK PISTOLS WITHOUT EXPERIENCING ANY SORT OF MISHAP FROM THE USE OF LEAD THAN THE MINORITY WHO HAVE, EITHER ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, EXPERIENCED SOME SORT OF ‘KABOOM!’ EVENT.

THOSE SHOOTERS WHO’VE HAD A PROBLEM USING LEAD BULLETS IN THEIR GLOCKS ARE IN A DEFINITE MINORITY — NOT A MAJORITY, A MINORITY, INSTEAD. I AM ALSO NOT CERTAIN — BUT POSITIVE — THAT OTHER FACTORS HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY OF THESE CATASTROPHIC FAILURES.

These factors are, in my considered opinion, both technical AND mechanical in nature. In fact I would daresay it is more dangerous to reload cartridges in certain calibers and with certain canister gunpowders, than it is to merely shoot lead bullets in a factory-stock Glock.

THIS STATEMENT IS EMPHATIC. I WOULD, AND DO, SAY THIS.

When Glock, GmbH/Inc. builds a pistol that is (How shall I say this?) LESS THAN PERFECT in its design and, let’s say, the slide fails to CONSISTENTLY return-to-battery as it should (Like with both of my brand new G-21’s that had the original faulty #4256 trigger bars in them.) then such intermittent mechanical failures to RTB will also make a significant contribute to any overpressure event(s).

So, other than failures from using the wrong lead bullets in a Glock, there are also other failures (or combinations of failures) that are capable of producing one sort or another of overpressure event(s) in a factory-stock Glock — Like, say, the use of original Accurate Arms #5 canister gunpowder; however, I’m equally certain that there are other canister-grade commercial gunpowders on the market that, by degree, are capable of doing the exact same thing. (Bullseye among them!)

(No commercial powder manufacturer states the peak ignition pressure spike(s) inherent to any of their canister gunpowders — Right! How, then, can any definitive test results be obtained by ANYBODY? Now are you beginning to understand ‘Where’ I’m coming from on this topic, John?)

While a lot of people seem to be ‘all a tither’ about using lead bullets in a Glock pistol, nobody (or almost nobody) pays any real attention to the effects of different: pistol calibers, canister gunpowders, and mechanical design inconsistencies into careful consideration.

We, all, know that today’s, typical, polymer frame pistol, slide and barrel lockup is one of the weakest mechanical lockup designs ever invented or used in anybody’s pistol. This so-called ‘modified Browning lockup’ is damned near an open bolt design — Yes!

(Personally speaking, and in particular, I do not think Glock’s ‘modified Browning lockup’ is ideally suited to any calibers other than, perhaps, 380 Auto, or 9 x 19mm.)

Additionally, it never ceases to amaze me whenever someone posts a statement like ‘I haven’t cleaned (or lubricated) my Glock since the beginning of the year; and it’s still running fine!’ Filthy un:lubricated guns do NOT run as reliably or well as clean lubricated guns do. (But how come we’re the only ones who know that!)

Any or all of these technical or mechanical idiosyncrasies can, and do, contribute to ‘Why’ someone’s Glock suddenly goes ‘kaBOOM!’ I’m not going to dare to speak for someone else; but, as far as I’m concerned, I’m familiar with and I pay attention to ALL of these different parameters. I do shoot both hard cast lead and plated bullets in my Glock pistols; and, so far, (14 + years) I have NOT had an overpressure event; and I know that I am far from alone in the experience, too.

Everyone else is welcome to do whatever he thinks best. Can a shooter screw up while shooting lead bullets in his Glock pistol? Sure he can; AND for more than just one reason too.

Generally speaking, I actually AGREE with the admonition not to shoot lead bullets in a Glock. There are a great many Glock shooters out there among the general public who definitely should NOT use lead bullets in there Glock pistols; however there are also other Glock owners who know how, and do.

Like I’ve already said …… IT DEPENDS! The conclusion not to use lead bullets in a Glock is well-founded; however, it is NOT universally shared. I can; you can’t. It’s that simple! No hard feelings, John; and my regards to Mark. You’re right; he’s a fine engineer.

However, before closing this out (Because, if you remember, I didn’t want to start this discussion in the first place!) I think I should point out that,

THERE ARE PLENTY OF OTHER GLOCKS — ALL OF THEM SHOOTING FACTORY-NEW JACKETED BULLETS THAT ALSO EXPLODE.

‘Hot damn’, huh! The phenomena of ‘exploding Glock pistols’ is NOT limited to only those Glocks that use lead bullets — OK! May we be clear on this?

I’ve been shooting all different sorts of guns since I was 11 years old; and, in the past 15 - 18 years of my long life, I’ve heard and read about more polymer frame pistols exploding than I’ve ever seen, heard of, or read about metal frame pistols doing during the previous 50 years of my life! (50 + 18 …… You get the idea! That’s a lot of experience.)

Is this because of mere coincidence? I think not. Is it because of the internet? Again, I think not. Is it because of the physical design characteristics of polymer frame pistols in general, and Glock pistols in particular? Possibly! You tell me!

(I’m tired of arguing about something that I consider to be as obvious, as inane, and as just plain ‘Kool-Aid’ as ‘the pink elephant in the room’.)

As ‘MarkCO’, himself, has correctly acknowledged: The issue of Glock pistols suddenly going ‘kaBOOM!’ involves a whole lot more than the simple use of lead bullets. Plenty of presumably ‘healthy’ factory-stock Glocks using brand new commercial ammunition with jacketed bullets do plenty of exploding too!

(Which is a principal reason ‘Why’ — and, again, just like ‘MarkCO’ himself — I too pay very careful attention to the: weight, quality, and condition of the springs in my Glock pistols, in the same manner that I used to do with all of the handloading components that I once used.)

HERE, For your general information.