Thoughts from the gunsmithing counter

1911 guy wrote:
I'm a machinist who dabbles in guns. I have these types of conversations with engineers...

Click to expand...

My father is a master machinist. I have two engineering degrees. We have these kinds of conversations going both ways all the time, although they probably don't go the way you would imagine since my first degree is agricultural engineering, I tend to look for expedient, quick and dirty solutions while the master machinist can't conceive of anything that isn't, well, elegant.

You need that assembly elevated? I say just grab a hammer and bang some wooden shims underneath it. My father starts working out a device using thumbscrews for precise adjustment. And then he wants to knurl the screws at which point my head explodes and I scream that we're not going to take the time on a one-time use fixture and so we're going to just call it good with hex head bolts and a combination wrench.

It goes both ways.

TRX wrote:
I'm not familiar with the phrase "play raccoon"...

Click to expand...

Neither was I.

I do know that when they are around others, raccoons will sit on their food and reach down underneath themselves to retrieve it so that the others in the group can't take it away from them, but I don't think that's what AeroDillo was talking about.

AeroDillo wrote:
So at the risk of bringing the world-wide hoplosphere down on my unsuspecting head,...

Click to expand...

My attitude is that you get what you pay for, so if you want it fast and cheap, it will look like it. If you want museum quality, well then you pay for craftsmanship.

There are no true gunsmiths left in the area where my father lives; the area is just too poor to support anyone worthy of the title. Decades ago, there was one who ran a gun shop and shooting accessories shop in addition to his gunsmithing practice. I bought a lot of stuff from the shop, but never got any gunsmithing from him. I stopped by one day when he was getting ready to hot blue someone's gun. I asked about re-bluing the slide on my pistol. He said he charged $75 to re-blue a gun because of all the work that went into getting things ready and that even if I was willing to spend the money - which he counseled against - he wouldn't re-blue the slide of "a $25 gun". He suggested I get a black permanent magic marker and touch up the worn areas if they bothered me. I did. It worked better than I would have dared to hope. I appreciated the honesty and continued to shop his store first until I got accepted into a graduate program in Texas and had to move.

"Play Raccoon" may mean fiddle with the gun until you get it right! . This term also may mean checking it over closely. RC Model frequently referred to checking a gun out closely as "coon fingering it" .It is a slang term for a close inspection!!!!

Bull

hdwhit said:

Engineers... I used to work with them. Absolutely from another planet.

Click to expand...

Take care. There are enough engineers on this site, they might start talking about some of the machine operators they've come across in their time - no trade, craft or profession is immune from incompetent practitioners.

With engineers, a lot of it depends on how they were trained. Depending on the school, someone can get a degree in engineering without ever touching a machine tool. In other programs you can't graduate if you can't build what you design and people emerge from them with not only their degrees but also certifications in fields such as welding and machining.

Click to expand...

I don't think he meant they're incompetent. Sounds like he's been subjected to the same over-complicated, bass-ackwards or impossible to machine parts/designs that I've seen in both my automotive and machining careers. So many engineers clearly spend too much of their time (if not all of it) dealing in math, theory and virtual design, when they need get out of their vacuum and deal with real-world variables & limitations.

It's been a long-held sentiment among us in the field that if you were to put an automotive engineer and a career mechanic in the same room, there would absolutely be blood.

It's very easy to tell which engineers have had to make & test their designs in the real world, even get their hands dirty, and those who spend all their time at a desk and/or in a lab.

MachIVshooter said:

I don't think he meant they're incompetent. Sounds like he's been subjected to the same over-complicated, bass-ackwards or impossible to machine parts/designs that I've seen in both my automotive and machining careers. So many engineers clearly spend too much of their time (if not all of it) dealing in math, theory and virtual design, when they need get out of their vacuum and deal with real-world variables & limitations.

It's been a long-held sentiment among us in the field that if you were to put an automotive engineer and a career mechanic in the same room, there would absolutely be blood.

It's very easy to tell which engineers have had to make & test their designs in the real world, even get their hands dirty, and those who spend all their time at a desk and/or in a lab.

Click to expand...

yep, few things are worse than educating a lab rat - you deserve a bonus for enduring that!!!

I used to love the stories my gunsmith, Doug, told. Alas, he is deceased now; I miss him. He had a hole shot through his roof by a guy who insisted the gun was unloaded. Has been through all the scenarios cleverly described by the OP. He told me about a guy who brought in a relatively new shotgun that was locked up and wouldn't function. When Doug disassembled it, there was rust everywhere, but Doug got it cleaned up and functioning. When he explained what he found, the customer related the following story. He said, "That rust is probably my fault. I was hunting ducks and tripped and fell in the mud. The gun got really muddy, but the water looked really clean so I stuck it in the water and "wrenched her off". Guess I shoulda cleaned her when I got home." (Ya think!) So if you ever get tempted to "wrench" your shotgun in a stream......don't. Thanks for an entertaining narrative.

I used to work for Dell doing tech support. I completely understand.

MachIVshooter wrote:
I don't think he meant they're incompetent.

Click to expand...

I don't think he did either.

I just wanted to point out that while he and CoalTrain were stereotyping engineers, they needed to keep in mind there are enough engineers on this site to stereotype machinists, too.

It's been a long-held sentiment among us in the field that if you were to put an automotive engineer and a career mechanic in the same room, there would absolutely be blood.

Click to expand...

Like I said previously, my father is a master machinist specializing in jigs and fixtures and there have been lots of times when we've been working on something around the farm together that I've wanted to punch him in the nose (and I'm sure he felt the same way).

But, as I also said, in our case it is because his solutions often reflect the precision and intricacy of a fixture builder while my solutions are tend to be agrarian and immediate.

Merle1 wrote:
yep, few things are worse than educating a lab rat...

Click to expand...

Squeek. Squeek.

...except when the lab rat has to educate the machinist that the part was drawn the way it was for a reason. I may actually need a stress concentration at that point so that when the part fails, it does so in a controlled way that means nobody gets hurt. And if I deserved a bonus for that, I didn't get it.

As I said above, for every "stupid engineer trick" story you can come up with, I'm sure there's an engineer on this site that can share an equally inane story about machinists, welders, pipe fitters, and the like.

Sniper66 said:

I used to love the stories my gunsmith, Doug, told. Alas, he is deceased now; I miss him. He had a hole shot through his roof by a guy who insisted the gun was unloaded. Has been through all the scenarios cleverly described by the OP. He told me about a guy who brought in a relatively new shotgun that was locked up and wouldn't function. When Doug disassembled it, there was rust everywhere, but Doug got it cleaned up and functioning. When he explained what he found, the customer related the following story. He said, "That rust is probably my fault. I was hunting ducks and tripped and fell in the mud. The gun got really muddy, but the water looked really clean so I stuck it in the water and "wrenched her off". Guess I shoulda cleaned her when I got home." (Ya think!) So if you ever get tempted to "wrench" your shotgun in a stream......don't. Thanks for an entertaining narrative.

Click to expand...

could it have been salt/brackish water?

bullseye308 said:

I used to work for Dell doing tech support. I completely understand.

Click to expand...

I have seen similar lists put out by computer IT folks - every bit as funny.

Quote:
With engineers, a lot of it depends on how they were trained. Depending on the school, someone can get a degree in engineering without ever touching a machine tool. In other programs you can't graduate if you can't build what you design and people emerge from them with not only their degrees but also certifications in fields such as welding and machining.

Agreed completely. One engineer I work with in particular is very good. Started by getting his hands dirty, worked his way up the food chain, put himself through school at night, got his papers and degree. Then you've got the idiots who get upset when you tell them it's impossible to drill a one inch hole in a half inch piece. My favorite because it's recent: I get handed a steel brake drum for a steel rolling machine in a steel mill. Hunk of metal about three feet in diameter and about two feet thick. Engineer says they need two 3/4 inch holes at 180 degrees. Just as I finish drilling the second hole, he walks up and says "oh, yeah, tap those 3/4-10, would you?" Of course it's my fault that the finished holes are 7/8-9. Because a kid who's been alive less time than I've been machining can't possibly make a mistake.

And yes, I'm quite aware that there are people running around calling themselves machinists who have absolutely no right to call themselves such. I've seen a few pass through my place. Actually, more than a few. Button pushers at best, dangerous scrap-o-matics at worst.

So, no, not stereotyping all engineers, nor saying all engineers are incompetent boobs. But some are. Find "that guy", then let him tell you how to do your job. Pretty much what the O.P. was getting at.

One of my favorites was a new super duper shipboard radio set with an electronics cabinet that was 9-1/2 ft tall - not counting height of the mounting foundation or room for shock excursion.

Problem is - those shipboard compartment were only about 7-1/2 ft tall. Mounted how Mr Wizard who has never set foot on a ship???

For the record I am an engineer. I also have a basic understanding of machining as I spent most of my youth taking things apart, and working as a maintenance mechanic in an industrial plant.

I am formally trained as an Electronics Engineer, and I work in the auto industry as a Quality Engineer. We have 2 engineers in my group who don't know how to turn a wrench, or use a hammer. They are degrees mechanical engineers from large reputable schools. These same people get to find fault with how other people build parts. My degree program was 60% classroom, 40% lab. I had a class where the instructor gave us a budget, deadline, and a goal. We had to design, build, test, and demonstrate our concept so i have the knowledge of real world variables.

My gunsmith is a friend and he tells the same stories. I usually help him out right before hunting season due to a high volume of gun cleaning. He does not do everything gunsmith related as he does not have a large shop, but he partners with another shop for some jobs. He mainly does scope mounting, trigger jobs, action jobs, and some refinishing work. His partner shop does barrel jobs, lathe turning jobs, refinishing, and milling machine work. They both deal with people who have no idea of how much labor/skill goes into a basic action/trigger job.

I worked as an engineer for 30 years. Two things, which I could not control, often had more effect on the outcome of the final design than I did - the client and management.

You might not like the final design when you have to build it, but you're not the guy caught between the proverbial hard place and the harder place....if the client and management are happy, frankly I don't care if you don't like building the final design because YOU didn't have to put up with all of the BS that dictated the final outcome.

And..it was always nice to know that I was the dumbest guy in the room....according to - the client, the management, and the contractor building the design. Of course, none of the three had the slightest idea about how to solve the problem to begin with...but, who wants to get all caught up in details like that?

Believe me. Not all of the "dumb things" done by engineers are invented by them...a lot of the dumb things are the result of, you guessed it - either the client or management.

I'll never forget the contractor that was fishing for change orders by complaining that we hadn't specified or shown how every NEMA electrical box was to be mounted at its location. I looked at the contractor and said, "You want me to tell you how to install a NEMA box?" The contractor said 'Yes, I need to know that."

So, I put my arm around his shoulder and said, "Install them plumb and level..." and walked away...

Many moons ago I worked at a potato chip factory and we lost a maintenance guy to health problems. The dipstick replacement we got came highly recommended, had years of experience, and a few degrees. Obviously he had a bs resume. Once the regular maintenance guy realized we had an idiot, the fun was on. Time to install a new machine so he got sent to the hardware store for welding rods to weld aluminum to concrete to secure it in place. The next day while running conduit they were a piece short so he got sent out for a pipe stretcher. Shortly after during forklift maintenance he got sent out for blinker fluid. He was also told to arrange to get the flat fixed on the forklift( solid tires). He got sent out one more time but I don't remember what for, but he never came back.
Remember folks, they are in every line of work, both sides of the counter, and they breed.

Stay thirsty my friends.

Two things stuck in my mind from my time as "the gunsmith."

1.) There are three elements, price, quality, and service. Pick two. You can't have all three.

2.) "No I will not put your gun ahead of all the others. Not even if you pay more. I don't care if tomorrow is opening day. If you wanted it done sooner then you should have dropped it off sooner.

buckhorn_cortez said:

Believe me. Not all of the "dumb things" done by engineers are invented by them...a lot of the dumb things are the result of, you guessed it - either the client or management.

Click to expand...

Very true.

Still, there is no shortage of examples (especially in automotive) where it is an engineering fail, plain and simple. Usually not as much from a function standpoint, but a service perspective. For example, the use of an unnecessarily long bolt in one particular spot on a popular Asian SUV that turns transfer case removal from a 3 hour job into a 14 hour one. A 25mm bolt through the 10mm thick flange instead of a 35mm bolt would have saved countless owners of this vehicle $1,000+ in each instance where the T-case had to be removed, not to mention lost time and other incidentals that result from removing the entire subframe/powertrain assembly and then separating engine from transaxle instead of just R&R of the case.

I could list dozens upon dozens if not hundreds of similar cases where it was clearly a design flaw/oversight that was not influenced by managerial decisions, weight, cost or any other parameter. Just the result of someone who has never had to build or service the things they're designing.

Never met a gunsmith. Paid a bunch of money to people who claimed they were gunsmiths but, they were wrong. Count your blessings if you're fortunate enough to have a gunsmith in your area.