Concealed Carry: Accuracy, Consistency, Range

Hardtarget said:

I was reading post #2 from creaky-old-cop.....and my mind ran all the way back to an episode of "Miami Vice" ! I KNOW...its just a TV show...but...as I recall Crockett was at the range and as he was shooting/running/reloading...going as fast as he could...there were two cops (training buddies) going with him...yelling, screaming and just generally giving him H*!!. funny to even remember. HOWEVER...that is what I need for training. MOVE...SHOOT...RELOAD...pulse rate up!! ENGAGE targets at different ranges, use barricades and odd positions...all the stuff that makes shooting difficult. Besides being good for my shooting it might be a little fun! I've shot so many paper targets it would be good for me to shake things up a little.

Mark

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Marry isn't that the appeal of 3 gun and the other action shooting sports? The ability to do such things.

BSA1 I've been trapped in a so called gun free zone facing the wrong end of a 12 ga after 2 people were shot. What I hate on many of these forums and discussions is a lot of bravado by people who haven't been there/done that. Few who haven't been in combat, or on a police force and in a shooting understand what really happens during shooting.

It's not like the movies, and it's not like many think, as you imply, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is getting home alive. Getting home alive in one piece is preferred, but even that comes after the will to survive.

I think as gun enthusiasts we worry about shot placement, so scaled stopping power, and a bunch of BS that fall well below the main objective of getting out of the situation. In my case I was trapped with no exit, no window, and no way to go buy via a door shot apart by the gunman. I didn't survive by shooting him as I wasn't carrying in the classroom. Instead, ,y martial arts training kicked in and helped me startle him enough that a security guard could grab him and hold him until the police arrived.

So I hope people realize our goal isn't to kill bad guys, to out gun them, etc. The goal is really to end the attack, and to get to a safe place as quickly as possible. The saying by any means necessary is so true.

Now that doesn't mean that I wouldn't have shot the gunman had I been armed. The reality is that had I been armed, he would have been killed as I would have shot him. And I can ensure everyone reading this that even just being in the situation is very hard on someone, as I spent months making sense of that, the difference between saying you'd kill someone in self defense and knowing that if you had to take a life to save your own and that of others isn't easy if you value human life. In fact it's soul searching.

Thankfully I didn't have to take a life. I can't imagine how hard that must be. And my thoughts and prayers go out to all of our service members, police officers, security workers and others who have. I'm sure like my situation they didn't and still don't get the support they should.

So yeas train the physical, make it as real as you can, but don't forget to train the mind. Without mental toughness the rest doesn't matter. And again you're right what matters is going home and being with those you love.

Hokie_PhD said:

So yeas train the physical, make it as real as you can, but don't forget to train the mind. Without mental toughness the rest doesn't matter. And again you're right what matters is going home and being with those you love.

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What a insightful post hokie.
I wish you hadn't had that experience, but glad you survived it.

I practice with my edc weekly. I consider myself proficient with it, but I continue to work on getting better.

One of the great things about competition shooting is that you can't kid yourself for long. The results will tell you how much work you still need!

Hokie_PhD said:

It's not like the movies, and it's not like many think, as you imply, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is getting home alive. Getting home alive in one piece is preferred, but even that comes after the will to survive.

I think as gun enthusiasts we worry about shot placement, so scaled stopping power, and a bunch of BS that fall well below the main objective of getting out of the situation.


So yeas train the physical, make it as real as you can, but don't forget to train the mind. Without mental toughness the rest doesn't matter. And again you're right what matters is going home and being with those you love.

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You bring up two good points.

When it comes to surviving the first rule is too ALWAYS CHEAT. Think outside of the box and do whatever is necessary to survive.

For example many folks think that if you shoot a attacker in the back you will automatically be found guilty of murder and be given a long sentence to the StatePen. Well before that can happen you have to survive the encounter. Use of force is based on the totality of the circumstances. The attacker has just shot a bystander and still has his back turned to me. I am not going to play hero by telling him to drop his gun and waiting until he turns around pointing his gun at me before I shoot. I am going to shoot him in the back until he is disabled.

This may cause problems in some States. However in Oklahoma there was a recent case where a armed neighbor shot and killed a man that was trying to drown two children in a bathtub. Not only were no charges filed but he was called a hero by the Police and in the media.

My second point is the reason I stress accuracy is because in many incidents shooting skills degrade. So if I only capable of shooting pie plate size groups at 7 yards what is going to happen in a actual incident? Maybe all misses?

And what is going to happen to my 2" groups that I normally shoot on the range? Will they open up to 8" or 12"? Maybe they will also be total misses. But the important thing is as I have the skill level for accurate shooting it will be a matter of settling down and remembering the warrior mindset to deliver my shots into the vital areas to stop the attack.

"No Second Place Winners" by Bill Jordan is still a good read.

Well, I only carry ONE self-defense firearm, I dont switch around different models. So then I only train with that one weapon (for self-defense shooting).

I have only so much time to train, so I invest all that time in being proficient with that firearm and shooting (almost) ONLY at the self-defense distances, 10 yards or less. This includes IDPA practice which I use as training rather than with the goal of competition.

I have no intention of sticking around in a situation if I can retreat, so longer distance shooting with a handgun is not a likely scenario for me. And I'm not going to go on the offensive in a situation where I need to shoot farther either. Possible? I guess but not likely enough for me to focus my valuable training time on.

Do I have fun and plink other times? Yeah, occasionally with friends but my self-defense training is wholly focused on being completely familiar with one firearm ( and my house gun is a larger model that runs exactly the same), and shooting for proficiency at the self-defense distances (moving, reloading, from behind cover, etc, not just paper).

Fiv3r said:

Like a lot of armed citizens, I don't have a facility to train on the move or from a holster. That kind of training simply isnt available.

.

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See if there is a local IDPA group near you. I practice with a group, not to compete but for the skills moving & reloading, etc, and the pressure that time & critical observers can add, a bit of stress added that helps as well.

Kleanbore said:

That states it well. Group size ain't the issue.

Rob Pincus speaks of the balance of speed and precision.

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I know. Rob and I have been friends for a while now. He is one of the better teachers extant, actually one of the top three as far as I am concerned. I tell him I "steal freely from him" at every opportunity. He is in my last book as well.

BSA1 said:

My second point is the reason I stress accuracy is because in many incidents shooting skills degrade. So if I only capable of shooting pie plate size groups at 7 yards what is going to happen in a actual incident? Maybe all misses?

And what is going to happen to my 2" groups that I normally shoot on the range? Will they open up to 8" or 12"? Maybe they will also be total misses. But the important thing is as I have the skill level for accurate shooting it will be a matter of settling down and remembering the warrior mindset to deliver my shots into the vital areas to stop the attack.

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This.
Stress.
Police officers on average do well to make 50% hits for rounds fired.
https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/
Combine that with it takes two or three hits on average to stop an attacker, based on actual shootings.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

I want at least a 10 round magazine in my primary (mag limit for people in restrictive places) but I'll likely have more since I can.
Two attackers is not unrealistic.
Two - three hits to stop one attacker, with a 100% hit success - which is not typical in actual shootings.
According to averages, may be four rounds fired to stop one attacker: two hits / two misses.
With accuracy under stress better than average cop, may be 8 rounds fired to stop two attackers, assuming only takes two rounds to stop each.

Think you can shoot better than average cop? I think I can. But in this incident ...
Guy stabbing people in mall, off duty cop that is firearms instructor & competitor engages with Glock 19 - fires 10 rounds hits 6 times = 60% hits.
Note it takes 6 hits of 9mm to stop a skinny guy with knife, not the 2-3 rounds average in study above.
https://www.policeone.com/police-tr...ning-takeaways-from-the-St-Cloud-mall-attack/

CDW4ME said:

This.
Stress.
Police officers on average do well to make 50% hits for rounds fired.
https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/
Combine that with it takes two or three hits on average to stop an attacker, based on actual shootings.
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

I want at least a 10 round magazine in my primary (mag limit for people in restrictive places) but I'll likely have more since I can.
Two attackers is not unrealistic.
Two - three hits to stop one attacker, with a 100% hit success - which is not typical in actual shootings.
According to averages, may be four rounds fired to stop one attacker: two hits / two misses.
With accuracy under stress better than average cop, may be 8 rounds fired to stop two attackers, assuming only takes two rounds to stop each.

Think you can shoot better than average cop? I think I can. But in this incident ...
Guy stabbing people in mall, off duty cop that is firearms instructor & competitor engages with Glock 19 - fires 10 rounds hits 6 times = 60% hits.
Note it takes 6 hits of 9mm to stop a skinny guy with knife, not the 2-3 rounds average in study above.
https://www.policeone.com/police-tr...ning-takeaways-from-the-St-Cloud-mall-attack/

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I shoot better than most cops in Phoenix. I know this because I've taken lessons from a Phoenix police instructor and he said he wished most cops were as good as me. I sort of found that scary because I don't consider myself a good shot. I'm like a duffer golfer who goes out every week and took a few lessons but really is not that good.

Kleanbore said:

True.

Could well be.

How many rounds to carry? See this:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589332

None of that indicates that practicing small-group precision at the range is a good way to prepare for a violent attack. The skills may appear the same, but they are distinctly different.

I certainly did not understand that at first. I had been shooting handguns for decades, and when my CCW instructor recommend shooting at a paper plate, I had no concept of the realism of that approach.

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Shooting at paper plates reminds me of breaking boards in karate. Which makes me think of the original Karate Kid where Mr Miyagi asks "what did board do to you"!

So if you're going to be attacked by a bunch of paper plates only training with them as targets makes sense. Now I say this half in jest, but also because it seems some here still don't get that the best training is not just one type. But rather to practice different skills that you use as part of your "toolbox".

Again, skills development isn't one or the other. Sure if you don't have fundamentals down then you can't build on them, but there's also a point where going for perfection doesn't make sense. We each choose what's "good enough". If not, we'd all be working on putting all shots from a magazine in the same hole aka perfection. So some consider 2" groups good enough. Others 3". And some others other sizes.

JohnBiltz said:

I shoot better than most cops in Phoenix. I know this because I've taken lessons from a Phoenix police instructor and he said he wished most cops were as good as me. I sort of found that scary because I don't consider myself a good shot. I'm like a duffer golfer who goes out every week and took a few lessons but really is not that good.

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I was a cop for awhile, long time ago, and I shot better than most of the other cops; I was a gun enthusiast then, most are not.
Anyway, even with good shot placement, some people hard to incapacitate; appears to take 6-7 good hits to stop this guy:

BSA1 said:

A S&W J-Frame 2” barrel revolver is very capable of shooting tight groups at 25 yards. A former Chief of Police I worked for could outshoot most of the Department (25 Officers plus Reserves) at 25 yards with his nickel plated round butt J- Frame revolver.

Reality check, Just because a attacker with a gun is 25 yards away instead of 7 yards does not make him less of a threat.

If you can shoot a full –size pistol accurately than you should be able to do so with a J-Frame. You just have to work at it harder. I quit carrying my J-Frame in February, 2016 and now my primary edc is Beretta 92FS. I consider J-Frames to be niche guns. However like you I find shooting a full-size pistol more comfortable and easier to shoot tight groups.

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Yes, I have always heard stories of people who could shoot a J Frame and get tight groups. Usually these stories are on the internet. I have never met a person that could actually do it in front of me though, so I assume these people are rare, and I would have a hard time believing he neverthless wouldn't shoot better with a gun with a longer sight radius. So to say that a J Frame cannot shoot tight groups might be a bit broad, but I think it is fair to say it is very hard and probably impossible for the average shooter to do that.

I also think it is fair to say that the further a threat is away from you, the less of a threat it become. We can argue over yardage, but that is not really the point.

Finally, I agree that if you can shoot good groups with a larger gun, you can probably shoot at least decently with a J Frame, if you practice enough, but why go to that effort? Why would I want to spend a lot of extra time and effort learning to shoot a gun that is innately more difficult to shoot when I can just about as easily carry a gun that hold more ammo, probably more powerful ammo, and can be learned to shoot well quicker. It just seems like a lot of work to go to to shoot a J frame. They carry nicely, but that is greatly offset in my opinion by limited ammo capacity, and a round that is of average power. I can't say I see the circumstance where I would rather have a J Frame over a Glock 43 or S&W Shield.

This is not directed at anyone in this thread but, I think a lot of folks on gun forums need a reality check in terms of SD scenarios.

All of my SD range time is spent at 10yds or less. Most SD situations don't happen at a distance, they're up close and personal.

Drawing from retention and point shooting are IMHO probably the most important skills. And you're not looking for "tight" groups but solid hits. Practicing these while moving off the X would also be beneficial.

It would also behoove everyone to have some CQC skills that don't involve guns, i.e. hand to hand.

Kleanbore said:

Yes indeed.

And quick hits.

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LOLOL

So glad I'm on the right track. Guess it depends on how you word things.

Here is Clint Smith's opinion on the balance between speed and precision: youtube.com/watch?v=gCOGhiaW5SA

WrongHanded wrote:
Or rather, my excuses as to why I "didn't get the groupings I was capable of" have disappeared.

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Diogenes, your search is over.

Behold, an honest man!

Moreover, one who can be honest with himself!