45 lc or 9mm?

bme27 said:

So I do not currently reload for any handgun and now that winter is finally starting to set in and am now wondering which factory loads for the 45 lc I should try against the 9mm with Buffalo Bore outdoorsman and maybe Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator. I want to see which ammo my guns shoot the best, and which gun I shoot best on a consistent basis as consistency is key.

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Winchester or Remington factory ammo with 255 gr cast RNFP is known for penetration. I don't see anything on the Buffalo Bore website under standard pressure that looks any better.

I've been messing around with backstop penetration tests on truck tire rubber after seeing many bullets barely embed themselves in tires. I figured two thicknesses of this steel belted tread rubber (about 4" total) would stop anything.

I was wrong. The .45 Colt RNFP load went completely through both. I didn't try a 9mm, but .357 110 JHP Winchester factory load only went through one. That's also how far a 38 Spl 148 HBWC penetrated. Same for the .38 Spl 158 gr SWC.

If you'd like, I can set it up again and try 9mm 115 FMJ and see what it does.

I'd take the .45 Colt. If it gets to the point that all other measures have failed, it's unlikely you'll get off more than one or two rounds. The single action is just as fast on the first shot, and points well. Probably a bit slower on the second but fast enough considering the power advantage.

bme27 said:

Now I do carry a can of bear spray as they are effective something like 97% of the time, but it’s the other 3% I’m worried about.

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So I take it bme27, that in the event of a bear attack, you're going to try the pepper spray first, then if that doesn't stop the attack, you're going to try either a 9mm or a standard .45 Colt load. Is that right? Which cartridge is best for that scenario seems like a moot point seeing as how 460Shooter is exactly right. That is, bears can move really, really fast.

460Shooter said:

Head shots.................... very challenging give how fast a bear and other potentially dangerous animals can move.

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On the other hand, I've lived, hunted, fished, hiked, backpacked and climbed in Idaho my whole life. I'm 69, and I've never even seen a grizzly in the wild outside of Yellowstone Park. I've seen, and in fact hunted and killed a few black bears. But most of the black bears I've seen in Idaho were running away.
That said, when backpacking I carry a .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk loaded with some heavy Buffalo Bore loads. But that's for in the tent at night. When we're actually on the trail, hiking, our first line of defense is to make a lot of noise as we go through thick patches like the willows alongside the creeks and rivers. We have bear bells and whistles. If neither of those things work (which they always have) I DO carry a readily accessible, large canister of potent bear spray.
Okay, lets hear the joke from all you folks who don't live anywhere near grizzly country, and have not seen any more grizzlies in the wild than I have (which is none). You know - the joke about the difference between grizzly bear scat (bells and whistles and smells like pepper spray) and black bear scat.
And then there's always the advice about carrying a 12-gauge loaded with slugs. Not very handy on steep trails when you have a 65lb backpack on your back. Besides, a loaded shotgun would make a lousy, expensive and dangerous hiking staff.

All right, I'll try to do that tomorrow or Saturday.

Another thing to consider is that when the 'more shots, faster' idea is implanted in your mind as an advantage, that thought will be in your mind if you ever have to use the gun. 'More shots, faster' leads to spray-n'-pray shooting which unfortunately brings with it spray-'n-pray accuracy, which won't do anything to stop a bear.

You'll need to be really good on running shots if you plan to hit a moving bear in the head. Some practice on moving targets might be in order before playing for keeps. I learned from shooting running rabbits with a .22 revolver and shooting at walnuts thrown in the air and rocks skipped across frozen ponds. All done double action. It is not the same as shooting at paper targets where the front sight is kept in focus. My eyes are always focused on the target, like shooting a shotgun.

A bear running at you should not be the first time you've ever tried to hit a moving target with a handgun.

45 Colt using hard cast lead bullets with a large, flat meplat and a long nose. When using a handgun against something like bear, you want a bullet that hours straight and cuts a deep sound channel. A bullet with a wide, flat meplat not only goes deep, but it cuts much better than a round nose and tracks through the animal straighter than an expanded hollow point.

I know that in Idaho, it's going to be black bear. A 9mm should be able to handle any black bear in an emergency with the right bullet selection. But I can't think of any 9mm that's configured for deep penetration that's not a round nose FMJ. I wouldn't be comfortable using a 9mm RN FMJ against a black bear. However, black bears don't usually bother humans.

If you get a revolver to handle more powerful 45 Colt loads, get a double action. A 45 Colt can more than hold its own against a 44 Magnum, especially in a modern handgun.

I'm not going to say anything about ballistics or bears because I'm not an expert on either, but one thing that comes to mind for me is that if you use the bear spray and it fails, that means the bear is pretty much going to be on top of you when you go to plan C and pull the gun. Do you think you can manipulate a single action one handed, while getting tossed around?

I know that a semi auto has the disadvantage that you can push the slide out of battery when you are shooting with the muzzle jammed into something, but at the same time it has the advantage that you only have to grip it tightly and pull the trigger. In the event things go to the ground you are pretty much screwed regardless but I don't know that I would want to have to try and manipulate a hammer while fighting for me life.

bme27, I ran the test with Federal factory 9mm 115 gr FMJ. One of the first two shots made it through both layers of rubber and into the ground. It was not recovered. The other almost made it through and was recovered in the 'witness' sheet I placed underneath. It was damaged, but still weighed 113 grains. So I shot two more--neither of them made it through.

Yes, I do. Both of the .45 LC's I shot went completely through tire rubber, witness sheet and into the ground. Only one of the four 9mm's did that. Plus the .45 LC bullet is over 2 times heavier than the 9mm. (255 vs 115 grains)

bme27 said:

cp1969, so the 9mm and the 45 lc both penetrated roughly the same? Both went through the two layers of rubber, after shooting both do you still recommend the 45 colt?

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Penetration through rubber, wood and drywall doesn't tell us how well a bullet will do against an animal.

That's right. It's a relative measure. But I wasn't trying to simulate the penetration in animals; the material I chose was meant to prevent penetration. I only have one data point for penetration in animals for the .45LC and none for the 9mm.

There isn't going to be a flip-flopping of one caliber penetrating better in Material A and then the other caliber penetrating better in Material B. Plus, the .45 LC has larger caliber and caliber counts, too.

To muddy the water even further, I don't think the 9mm Federal 115 gr. FMJ I used is a "true" FMJ.

The one 9mm bullet I recovered was damaged. I didn't look at it real close; all I did was weigh it. But today I noticed that the base of the bullet was covered with copper. That indicates (to me) that it's a plated bullet, not jacketed. A true, jacketed FMJ would penetrate further. But I don't have any real FMJ's to try; all I have is cheap Walmart junk ammo.

45 Colt is the only option I see you have with these parameters you set. I would feel better if with my Ruger Bisley and the 340 grn hard cast, there are better options than that as well, but would feel very confident with it. I don't care how many or how big you can stuff a a 9mm or even a 357 I'd be pray'n like the dickens I hurried up and got back home,,, without an encounter! I would be afraid in an encounter with anything big and furry them gun's when fired would only escalate my predicament. Stick with the 45 Colt it's your best option,,,,, HANDS DOWN!

What about something like the Lehigh Defense copper bullets in 9MM?

https://www.lehighdefense.com/colle...r-xtreme-penetrator-bullet?variant=1168549072

https://www.lehighdefense.com/colle...reme-defense-125gr-subsonic-supersonic-bullet

bme27 said:

I know the title doesn’t make sense as the cartridges are completely different, but it’s the two I have. I now live in Idaho and love the outdoors, which means I am in bear country most of the time. Now I do carry a can of bear spray as they are effective something like 97% of the time, but it’s the other 3% I’m worried about.

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You don't need a gun, just a slower moving "friend"

Bottom Gun said:

What about something like the Lehigh Defense copper bullets in 9MM?

https://www.lehighdefense.com/colle...r-xtreme-penetrator-bullet?variant=1168549072

https://www.lehighdefense.com/colle...reme-defense-125gr-subsonic-supersonic-bullet

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They may help but you could always use them in the .45 LC, too: https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/452

I'd prefer 250gr hardcast to 150gr buffalo bore.

Make sure you have the bear spray in a holster lol it will happen quick. And watch our for creeper humans too!

You made this a choice between .45LC or 9mm. That's why the .45LC got so much support. If the choice is not limited to those two cartridges, people will undoubtedly suggest more powerful rounds, especially when the Colt is limited to SAAMI pressure.

bme27 said:

So with the 45 colt getting a lot of love on this post, why is it not more recommended on others for bear country?

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If not restricted to those two cartridges, and those two guns, I suggest you look at 10mm, 44 magnum, 454 Casull, 480 Ruger, or 45 Colt in a Ruger Redhawk so you can ramp up to hot loads.

You set the parameters.

I'm going against the grain here. You need PENETRATION. And a 9mm with the best loads will easily beat mild 45 loads. Either way you'll need to get lucky, and 15 rounds of 9mm give you 11 more chances to get lucky.

Phil Shoemaker is a noted brown bear and fishing guide in Alaska. He tested Buffalo Bore 147 gr hardcast 9mm bullets and determined they were plenty to stop a big bear. Last summer he had a chance to prove it when a mature boar attacked a couple of fishermen he was guiding. Shoemaker posts a lot over on 24hourcampfire and shared a lot more about the attack over there than is listed in this article.

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

If you were talking about full bore 44 mag loads or with a 45 capable of the hotter loads I might feel different.

Any of You ever ACTUALLY been CLOSE to a REAL grizzly bear? Believe me You wouldn't be talking 9mm. LOL.

Keep Your bear spray handy and your brain engaged.