CMP 1911 Paperwork (FFL)

straightShot · Sep 20, 2018

D.B. Cooper said:
I was thinking about this today, and had two comments:

1.) That's an 80% chance of getting picked. That's pretty good.

2.) I'm not sure that article is correct, or at least current (it's almost a year old.) The website says they'll take applications between Sep 4 and Oct 4, feed those names into a random number generator and that's your place in line. If your number 8001, you don't get a gun this year. That said, for them to limit it to 10k they would have to discard a lot of names, and, the only system they have for doing that is first come - first serve. First 8k to be received or first 10k whatever.

So I think it may be more like 40-50k names, of which, only 8k (or less) will get a gun. SO I think my odds are lot lower than you think they are.

From the CMP webpage:

"Customer names from complete CMP 1911 order form packets will be fed into a computerized Random Number Generator on 5 October 2018. The Random Number Generator will provide a list of names in sequential order through the random picking process. Customers will be contacted in the sequence provided by the Random Number Generator. The CMP 1911 customers will select their grade of pistol (Service, Field or Rack) from available inventory at the time of order notification. Customers with higher numbers may have fewer grades from which to choose. When this year’s allotment of 1911s is exhausted, the remaining orders will be held in the existing sequence for all future allotments of 1911s. The CMP does not know what future allotments might be."

wojownik · Sep 23, 2018

LOL, I have a 0% chance of being picked. Went to four different FFLs in my area - all state they no longer send out their FFL to anybody - that their FFL information can be verified online. So I can't complete the CMP packet.

And a fifth FFL does not want to accept any 1911 transfers from the CMP - they are concerned about dealing with the hassle of customers possibly dissappointed with what they receive, and having to deal with returns (otherwise a great FFL, really backed me up when a seller tried a bait and switch on me on something else).

Oh well, I hope my non-participation improves the odds of a highroader here.

I guess I'll can take solace in being a "conscientious objector" to the CMP process for the 1911s. I object to the dual background check (first a NICS by CMP, then again by your FFL when it arrives). I object that CMP does not honor C&R FFLs. YMMV. I laud the CMP on their M1 program, but regret they had to bend to some political realities for the new 1911 program.

SamT1 · Sep 23, 2018

wojownik said:
LOL, I have a 0% chance of being picked. Went to four different FFLs in my area - all state they no longer send out their FFL to anybody - that their FFL information can be verified online. So I can't complete the CMP packet.

And a fifth FFL does not want to accept any 1911 transfers from the CMP - they are concerned about dealing with the hassle of customers possibly dissappointed with what they receive, and having to deal with returns (otherwise a great FFL, really backed me up when a seller tried a bait and switch on me on something else).

Oh well, I hope my non-participation improves the odds of a highroader here.

I guess I'll can take solace in being a "conscientious objector" to the CMP process for the 1911s. I object to the dual background check (first a NICS by CMP, then again by your FFL when it arrives). I object that CMP does not honor C&R FFLs. YMMV. I laud the CMP on their M1 program, but regret they had to bend to some political realities for the new 1911 program.

You could try an ffl search on something like gunbroker. There’s generally a lot more than you’d think exist in your area.

D.B. Cooper · Sep 23, 2018

wojownik said:
LOL, I have a 0% chance of being picked. Went to four different FFLs in my area - all state they no longer send out their FFL to anybody - that their FFL information can be verified online. So I can't complete the CMP packet.

And a fifth FFL does not want to accept any 1911 transfers from the CMP - they are concerned about dealing with the hassle of customers possibly dissappointed with what they receive, and having to deal with returns (otherwise a great FFL, really backed me up when a seller tried a bait and switch on me on something else).

Oh well, I hope my non-participation improves the odds of a highroader here.

I guess I'll can take solace in being a "conscientious objector" to the CMP process for the 1911s. I object to the dual background check (first a NICS by CMP, then again by your FFL when it arrives). I object that CMP does not honor C&R FFLs. YMMV. I laud the CMP on their M1 program, but regret they had to bend to some political realities for the new 1911 program.

I have to admit, the guns are C&R eligible, they should be required to ship to a C&R holder. Then again, most guys on gunbroker etc won't ship to a C&R holder, either. I've had my C&R 6 years;; it's pretty much useless.

Wisco · Sep 23, 2018

wojownik said:
Went to four different FFLs in my area - all state they no longer send out their FFL to anybody - that their FFL information can be verified online.

I’d ask them how I’m supposed to verify their FFL without their FFL number. Another FFL can’t really transfer them a firearm without it.

A business not letting you have a copy of their FFL is one thing, but refusing to send their FFL to another FFL just means they don’t want to do transfers.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 24, 2018

I'm going to roll the dice. I just ask my dealer for a copy of his license. I'll take whatever grade the CMP offers me.

I'm looking at this like those CMP carbine sales. Those are done and the prices climb about 10% every year now. The CMP paperwork is worth some bucks if you ever want to sell one.

With the political climate as it is this may be the last offering from CMP.

I'll just store it in the safe as an investment. I already have more 1911's than most people could shoot on a weekly schedule.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 24, 2018

D.B. Cooper said:
I have to admit, the guns are C&R eligible, they should be required to ship to a C&R holder. Then again, most guys on gunbroker etc won't ship to a C&R holder, either. I've had my C&R 6 years;; it's pretty much useless.

I sold a carbine (M1) to a C&R holder. Shipped it right to his home address. Happy on both ends. No knocks on the door from the ATF either.

D.B. Cooper · Sep 24, 2018

CoalTrain49 said:
I'm going to roll the dice. I just ask my dealer for a copy of his license. I'll take whatever grade the CMP offers me.

I'm looking at this like those CMP carbine sales. Those are done and the prices climb about 10% every year now. The CMP paperwork is worth some bucks if you ever want to sell one.

With the political climate as it is this may be the last offering from CMP.

I'll just store it in the safe as an investment. I already have more 1911's than most people could shoot on a weekly schedule.

I agree with everything you posted.

Decades ago, I procrastinated on the M Carbines; I was waiting for demand to drop and the price to come down. Now they're all gone. Three years ago they found a few hundred more, so I put in for one, but I didn't get drawn.

The political climate is going to change very soon.

dogtown tom · Sep 26, 2018

Wisco said:
The ATF has advised FFL holders not to give a copy to anyone but another FFL. It’s been that way for a few years I think.

No ATF regulation prohibits giving a copy of the FFL to anyone.

dogtown tom · Sep 26, 2018

D.B. Cooper said:
Yeah. I just got a copy of a license from a local FFL this afternoon. However, they wrote on the face of it "File Copy Only No Face To Face Transfer" in red marker. I'm not sure what to make of that or how CMP will interpret that.

It means what it says: "No Face To Face Transfer" as opposed to the seller shipping the gun to your dealer...…...and you likely aren't going to the CMP Store to pick up your 1911 in person anyway.

I can envision some unscrupulous FFL getting a copy of someone's FFL, then, in their bound book, disposing of all their guns to that FFL (on paper only), and then selling the guns on the black market.

That FFL wouldn't be unscrupulous, but an idiot. The inevitable gun trace will show that the guns never made it to the other dealer, as there are no shipping records showing a shipment and the idiot dealer will lose his FFL and go to jail. Not a likely scenario.

So I can see this "no face to face transfer" as sort of half-hearted attempt to guard against that, but I can also see CMP (or Bud's or whomever) reading that as "they don't do face to face transfers."

No, it's so another dealer won't transfer a gun directly to YOU. Your dealer doesn't want you using his FFL unless the guns are shipped to HIM.

Captains1911 · Sep 27, 2018

My local FFL gave me a copy of theirs, no problem at all.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 27, 2018

dogtown tom said:
and you likely aren't going to the CMP Store to pick up your 1911 in person anyway.

The CMP has stated that all pistols will be shipped to 01, 02, or 07 FFL. Looks like no store pick-ups.

D.B. Cooper · Sep 28, 2018

CoalTrain49 said:
The CMP has stated that all pistols will be shipped to 01, 02, or 07 FFL. Looks like no store pick-ups.

Yeah, I htouth that was a well-known issue. No in store purchases, mail order only, and redundant background checks.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 28, 2018

dogtown tom said:
No, it's so another dealer won't transfer a gun directly to YOU. Your dealer doesn't want you using his FFL unless the guns are shipped to HIM.

Why would a dealer ship a firearm to an address that isn't on a FFL license? Most people who sell firearms on the internet are aware of the requirement to ship to a dealer. If they're going to use just any old address why would they even be asking for a FFL.

A dealer won't have a license very long if he just ships to anyone without a license.

dogtown tom · Sep 28, 2018

CoalTrain49 said:
The CMP has stated that all pistols will be shipped to 01, 02, or 07 FFL. Looks like no store pick-ups.

Good grief.
He asked why "No face to face transfer" was written on his dealers FFL. It matters not one bit what CMP will do. That FFL can be used to transfer ANY firearm.

dogtown tom · Sep 28, 2018

CoalTrain49 said:
Why would a dealer ship a firearm to an address that isn't on a FFL license?

My response was to why a dealer writes "No face to face transfers" on his FFL. AGAIN, that means he DOES NOT want his FFL being used to transfer a firearm directly to whoever is holding his FFL copy...…..and only to ship to the FFL.

Most people who sell firearms on the internet are aware of the requirement to ship to a dealer. If they're going to use just any old address why would they even be asking for a FFL.

No kidding. The point you have not understood is that an FFL can be used for any transfer of a firearm, not just transactions that are shipped.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 28, 2018

My response was to why a dealer writes "No face to face transfers" on his FFL. AGAIN, that means he DOES NOT want his FFL being used to transfer a firearm directly to whoever is holding his FFL copy...…..and only to ship to the FFL.

Never heard of anyone doing that. That's illegal. Not everyone that ships a firearm is stupid or looking for a visit from the ATF. If a dealer is so worried about someone shipping to anyone but him why is he even providing a copy to his customer? Maybe the dealer can't use email, I don't know, but not likely.

No kidding. The point you have not understood is that an FFL can be used for any transfer of a firearm, not just transactions that are shipped.

Well if it isn't shipped I guess it's a FTF transfer. What's your point? Someone using someone else's license to do a FTF transaction? In most states it isn't necessary to use a dealer for a FTF transfer.

This is getting weird.

Theohazard · Sep 28, 2018

CoalTrain49 said:
Well if it isn't shipped I guess it's a FTF transfer. What's your point? Someone using someone else's license to do a FTF transaction? In most states it isn't necessary to use a dealer for a FTF transfer.

You’re missing his point. He’s saying that an FFL holder can walk into another FFL and use a copy of his own FFL to buy a firearm without a background check. So if someone has a copy of a dealer’s FFL they could misuse it. That’s why many dealers won’t give out copies of their FFL, or they give out copies with something like “no face-to-face transfers” written on it.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 28, 2018

dogtown tom said:
Good grief.
He asked why "No face to face transfer" was written on his dealers FFL. It matters not one bit what CMP will do. That FFL can be used to transfer ANY firearm.

Only if the firearm is shipped to the FFL. That doesn't mean it can be shipped to someone who isn't a holder of that license even if they hold a copy.

From the ATF

the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 28, 2018

Theohazard said:
You’re missing his point. He’s saying that an FFL holder can walk into another FFL and use a copy of his own FFL to buy a firearm without a background check. So if someone has a copy of a dealer’s FFL they could misuse it. That’s why many dealers won’t give out copies of their FFL, or they give out copies with something like “no face-to-face transfers” written on it.

So your telling me a dealer who sells a firearm to someone who produces a copy of an FFL isn't going to check the guys ID?

If Donald Trump himself walked into my store to buy a firearm I'd still check his ID.

Theohazard · Sep 29, 2018

CoalTrain49 said:
So your telling me a dealer who sells a firearm to someone who produces a copy of an FFL isn't going to check the guys ID?

The name of the FFL holder is handwritten on the FFL and it’s often illegible. Also, it would be pretty easy to alter the document to change the name.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 29, 2018

Theohazard said:
The name of the FFL holder is handwritten on the FFL and it’s often illegible. Also, it would be pretty easy to alter the document to change the name.

Thanks, I can understand that.

My friend who has a license had an AR 15 built locally. He went to pick it up with his license. The dealer didn't accept it and ran him thru the entire process anyway.

dogtown tom · Sep 29, 2018

CoalTrain49 said:
Never heard of anyone doing that. That's illegal.

Well, no its not illegal.
A licensed dealer or manufacturer OR AN EMPLOYEE can use the FFL IN PERSON to acquire a firearm.
What would be illegal is someone NOT AUTHORIZED using the FFL copy to acquire a firearm.
The dealers who write "not for face to face transfers" on their FFL are hoping that the seller understands what that means.

Not everyone that ships a firearm is stupid

Which has nothing to do with this.

If a dealer is so worried about someone shipping to anyone but him why is he even providing a copy to his customer?

You don't understand the difference between a face to face transfer and shipping a firearm? You should.

Maybe the dealer can't use email, I don't know, but not likely.

The point of this thread....you don't get it.

Well if it isn't shipped I guess it's a FTF transfer. What's your point?

Are you kidding? I was answering D.B. Coopers question.

Someone using someone else's license to do a FTF transaction? In most states it isn't necessary to use a dealer for a FTF transfer.

1. CMP wants a copy of the receiving dealers FFL in the buyers packet.
2. Again, for the umpteenth time...…."No Face To Face Transfers" written on the FFL copy means for the selling DEALER.....DON"T transfer face to face.
3. You are confusing a face to face transaction between two NONLICENSEES with the requirement for one licensed dealer (an FFL) to provide the other dealer with a copy of his FFL.

This is getting weird.

Weird isn't the word.

CoalTrain49 · Sep 29, 2018

CMP wants a copy of the receiving dealers FFL in the buyers packet.

Actually, they don't. Carefully read the instructions. They just want to make sure the pistol is being shipped to the FFL that you have designated on your application.

If the dealer has emailed their FFL and referenced your name that is all that is required.

Don't give up your day job.

dogtown tom · Sep 30, 2018

CoalTrain49 said:
Actually, they don't. Carefully read the instructions. They just want to make sure the pistol is being shipped to the FFL that you have designated on your application.

From https://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/1911-information/

CMP 1911 FFL contact information details:
All 1911’s will be shipped to a 01, 02 or 07 Federal Firearms License. Customers MUST provide a signed copy of the 01, 02 or 07 FFL.

CMP 1911 dedicated fax number 256-831-2354 for FFL dealers to fax their FFLs with the customer’s name attached.

CMP 1911 dedicated email address [email protected] to send their FFLs with customer's name attached.

CMP 1911 is currently accepting FFL contacts pursuant to FFL requirements.

If the dealer has emailed their FFL and referenced your name that is all that is required.

And CMP gives several options on how that FFL can be submitted

Don't give up your day job.

I never will.
And let us know when you get your FFL, that'll be a riot I'm sure. :rofl:

CMP 1911 Paperwork (FFL)

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