Record number of illegal immigrants tried to buy guns this year

The first time you illegally cross the border it's considered a misdemeanor. It's only a felony when you've been deported and return.

Entering the US illegally, or intentionally overstaying a visa without attempting to resolve the issue, could be changed to a criminal trespass charge.In some states, that is a felony- especially if it results in damage to persons or property. Just something else to ponder.

Alexander,
that I can come closer to believing.

Enfielder said:

We believe these right are "God" given and that the rot to defend ourselves is unalienable.

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The "rot" to defend ourselves???
Just kidding Enfielder. That's quite a typo.

RETG said:

I didn't realize it was this bad. That's a lot of people trying to purchase guns who should not have them.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...umber-of-illegal-immigrants-tried-to-buy-guns

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Am I reading this right? There are records on less than 20 million people in the NICS records?
Nothing on the other 300 million folks in the US?

freyasman said:

Am I reading this right? There are records on less than 20 million people in the NICS records?
Nothing on the other 300 million folks in the US?

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If you haven't run afoul of the law you shouldn't show up in a CRIMINAL database.

In WA any denial of a 4473 gets reported to the WSP within 5 days. That is then sent to every gun dealer in the state and also pops up on the WSP database. If you get pulled over the officer that pulled you over is going to see that when they run your plates. Everybody's going to know you punted on a 4473 because WA has a UBC.

Actually these stats are just more ammo for those wanting a UBC. If I had read this report I probably would have just let it slide on by. It speaks more toward a national UBC than more border security.

Texas10mm said:

If you haven't run afoul of the law you shouldn't show up in a CRIMINAL database.

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That's a lot of people who need to get out more, IMO.

.308 Norma said:

The "rot" to defend ourselves???
Just kidding Enfielder. That's quite a typo.

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Think Deep South accent.

I’m doing homework and taking breaks here on THR. My typo game was ninja on that post. I suppose I was ready to get back to the books instead of proofread. You all get the general idea.

CapnMac said:

It is rational, if there was still much meaning to the concept of high and low crimes (plea bargaining has mostly eroded that away).

What may be more to the point, it was not US law until 1968, only fifty of the nation's two and a half's centuries.

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But it was state law for many decades before that.

Almost 8 million.

BlueHeelerFl said:

I've always suspected that many gang members have their non felon girl friend, sister, grandma etc buy their guns for them.

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Yeah, they do.

The ones we denied were the ones that tried on their own (questionable legal status) or were obvious about buying the gun for their brother, boyfriend or husband and basically talking about it right in front of us.

However there were hundreds of sales where a Hispanic female came in and bought a gun. We obviously didn't question the legal status of the mostly silent male standing next to her.

If they said anything at all it was basically that they were helping her pick something for home or self defense.

Some of those were obviously legit. It's anyone's guess how many were not.

I do believe there are some violent misdemeanors other than domestic that land someone on the prohibited list, but can't remember the details

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Only one I knew of was domestic violence.

Figures that they expanded that.

Riomouse911 said:

Because that’s Massachusetts State law. The civil rights part is also wrong, for (at least) in Ca you lose second amendment rights for a period of time for numerous misdemeanor crimes: DV, other crimes of violence, restraining order violations and in 2019 even for multiple DUI convictions.

Internet is great to start with. But there are 50 individual sets of statutes that apply in the respective states, so to be sure one must check their states’ laws because a general search will miss stuff.

Stay safe!

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I already mentioned Massachusetts and mentioned that it was state law.

Where I was going with it was more along the lines of ...
• How are they able to legally make crimes that are misdemeanors subject to a loss of a civil right?

Dibbs said:

Almost 8 million.

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Again, that nearly 8 million figure is the gross number of illegal aliens that have been identified as being in the country. According to the cited article, only some 3,300 annually of these have tried to buy firearms and been denied. The nearly 8 million is the database against which the Form 4473 applicants are compared. (And the 8 million figure is probably overstated, because of aliases, duplicate names, etc.)

The way NICS works is that a denial is generated if there is a positive hit in the database. If there is no hit (no record in the database), the applicant is presumably "clean" and the dealer gets a "proceed." There are lots of cases where the derogatory information is wrong (due to similar names, etc.) -- leading to wrong denials -- as well as lots of cases of missing derogatory information, leading to mistaken approvals. The system clearly is a long way from being airtight. Remember that it's only as good as the underlying information.

JohnKSa said:

This is not supposed to be a general discussion of immigration and potential issues it brings up. Illegal aliens voting, just as one example, is off topic as it does not directly relate to illegal aliens purchasing firearms.

I've edited and deleted several posts to try to keep things on track. Which means that a person illegally coming from another country circumvents the entire point of NICS--there almost certainly won't be any records in the NICS data base for them even if they are criminals since NICS does not have access to criminal records from their country.

There are also other issues:

1. They are fugitives from justice which is a disqualifier.
2. They are illegal aliens which is a disqualifier.
3. If they have been deported and returned, they are felons, which is a disqualifier.
4. If they enter any false information onto the 4473, that is a felony, in and of itself.

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The problem is that they are almost never brought to justice for these additional felonies.

I get what the numbers in the report that Odd Job posted represent. Maybe I missed it, but I wasn't able to zero in on the actual number of illegal aliens trying to purchase a gun in 2018. Maybe somebody can post those up (again) if they're available.

Frulk said:

Maybe I missed it, but I wasn't able to zero in on the actual number of illegal aliens trying to purchase a gun in 2018.

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The number was 3,300 denials of illegal aliens in 2017. (It's right in the article.) The number for 2018 probably isn't out yet.

Texas10mm said:

The first time you illegally cross the border it's considered a misdemeanor. It's only a felony when you've been deported and return.

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Actually 18 USC §922, Unlawful Acts ...

(a) It shall be unlawful
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

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Covers illegal entry entire, without regard to "severity" of the offense.

freyasman said:

Am I reading this right? There are records on less than 20 million people in the NICS records?
Nothing on the other 300 million folks in the US?

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That jibes with criminal justice statistics. Statistically, it's around 9% of the US population engages in criminality, and about 40% of those are "violent criminals." 20 of 350 million would be about the right number of Prohibited persons, statistically.

crestoncowboy said:

My point is that of the hundreds ive interacted with, and few I know, they don't give their name or any info freely. They buy used cars off of dealers who don't ask names, they find one legal one to title all their vehicles and rent without using names. I once had to order shirts to give some away to a group through work, I only asked first name and shirt size. Nearly all were hesitant to give that. I question the accuracy of anything that says this many gave their info.

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I’m sure this is the case in your area, but it varies a lot from state to state. 12 states and D.C. issue drivers licenses to illegal aliens. In other states, some banks, car dealers, and insurance companies accept a Mexican matricula consular (photo ID issued to Mexicans living abroad) as ID. So, illegals don’t have to live such an “underground” existence in some parts of the country. Here in South Texas, I think using a legal friend/relative to conduct a straw purchase in fairly common - I believe I have witnessed several of these taking place at both FFL gun stores and at gun shows (guy picks out the gun, girl pays and does the paperwork).

Yeah, I know my area is different than the cities. I had a sister that lived at Atlantic beach and the illegals there weren't so secretive.
Either way I was fooled by the headline I thought it was going to say 7 million were denied. In that case I was saying bs. No way 7 million or even 1 million actually tried. But that's not what the actual article said.

People keep bringing up the 3,300 reported denials of illegal aliens in 2017 like it means something.

Those are just the instances where being an illegal alien was the only criteria for the denial of the gun purchase.

What about when the illegal alien had a criminal record (as many do)? That is the reason for the highest number of refusals. In which case they'd be put into that category (criminal record barring them from purchase) even though they are in fact also an illegal alien.

Browning said:

People keep bringing up the 3,300 reported denials of illegal aliens in 2017 like it means something.

Those are just the instances where being an illegal alien was the only criteria for the denial of the gun purchase.

What about when the illegal alien had a criminal record (as many do)? That is the reason for the highest number of refusals. In which case they'd be put into that category (criminal record barring them from purchase) even though they are in fact also an illegal alien.

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And there is no way to tell how many illegals were successful in their attempts, either. Regrettable, but necessary to the idea of not infringing. It’s a flaw, but an unfixable one, because that would necessitate keeping a database, which is a no-no, and we’d also be exposed to that sort of scrutiny. Also not acceptable.