Need a little help: H4350 and 6.5 CM

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rduckwor

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I checked the recall stickie and didn't see any H4350 listed.

A good friend with whom I have shot precision rifle and PRS for several years is having some pretty bad issues with his loads. Now, he is an experienced reloader and recently had a rifle blow on him with a hand load. He bought a new rifle and shot it today for the first time. Again his hand loads, one he has used for years. The case base is swollen to the point that it is going to have some serious issues coming off the bolt face. He's loading 43 Gr of H4350 and a Norma 130 GR Golden Bullet. I have run the same loads in my guns without issue. Before you start squawking about the loads being above max, know we both worked up to these loads and until his experiences, neither of us had any pressure issues or signs,

The lot number of the Hodgdon H4350 is 1081115/5429. 1 lb bottle. This powder was loaded in both instances. Please check your lot numbers and let me know if any of you have experienced any "hot" loadings with a known formula using this lot or other lots of H4350. We both have used Hornady brass without issues for years. He's pulled loads and checked weights. They're spot on.

Thanks,

RMD
 
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sounds like the powder going bad, pull some and see what it looks like. sometimes there the smell of vinegar or even yellow smoke. i believe slamfire has a good read on bad powder.
 
rduckwor said:
Now, he is an experienced reloader and recently had a rifle blow on him with a hand load. He bought a new rifle and shot it today for the first time. Again his hand loads, one he has used for years.
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With all due respect, your quote here indicates that he is NOT working up his loads....at least not for his new rifle.

While I'm don't know what caused his old rifle to kaboom, and I don't load 6.5 nor use H4350...but I would tread carefully before shooting any load above max published data on a new rifle without backing off and reworking up the load.

I strongly suggest your friend to re-evauate his reloading practices.
 
I’m calling a “hot” load in a tight chambered rifle.
Max load, and accuracy load in my T/C Compass is 42.0gr of H4350, under a 123gr Amax in Hornady cases and CCI LRP primers. Even at that, 1 in 3 will require a good tap on the bolt handle to extract.

The current trend in my observation is that 6.5CM tolerances are being kept tight.
Reloaders BEWARE !!! WORK UP YOUR LOADS! Don’t assume!
 
The OP described very poor reloading practices. Hopefully it was our poor inference due to his brevity, and not an honest and accurate account of what the unwitting friend had actually done.

Between knowing the load had blown up one rifle, and NOT properly doing load development for the new chamber, I can’t say the OP should be surprised here.

My first guess is jamming in the lands by using inappropriate COAL for his chambers, or possibly that he back mixed some other powder into his jar. I’m also in the camp which would expect any modern action in good condition should tolerate a full Creedmoor case of H4350, unless this guy was topping them off and compressing the full neck length of powder. I load clear up to my bullet bases in the Creedmoor case, with around 10K 6.5 and 6 creed rounds fired over H4350.

Really just sounds like someone not knowing what they were doing and slamming handloads into different rifles regardless of knowing whether the dimensions were correct or charge weights safe for each rifle.
 
Thanks for your replies. I agree that he should not have run to the range with a new rifle and old loads. However, I am also interested in what happened in the original rifle. I agree that you should not be able to blow a chamber with a case full of H4350, certain not at 43Gr under a 130 grain bullet.

Please do check your lot numbers and let me know of your experiences.

Thanks,

RMD
 
First you should workup a new load for a new rifle, more than likely chamber is going to be different.

I would also check and recheck your OAL and make sure you not jamming the bullet into the lands. Second make sure your not pinching the brass at neck. Any of these can cause major increase in pressure.

I would be working on what blew up the other gun before firing anything. The cause is probably the same reason your having over pressure signs in the new gun. Need to back away and start over. Pull the bullets down and confirm the charge.
 
What was Hodgdon’s response when he blew up the first rifle? I assume your buddy called them and they replaced the rifle and any damages when the lot of H4350 was determined the culprit? Equally then, I’d say your buddy is the one liable in this subsequent issue, rather negligent, since he already would have known that lot of powder were tainted. If I know anything at all in this world, I can say I know at least these two things: 1) If I ever blow up a rifle, I would involve the powder manufacturer to test the powder lot and identify the cause of the damage such I could not repeat it and 2) even if that effort determined the powder were NOT at fault, I would not continue to shoot ammunition loaded from the same lot of powder which blew up one of my rifles.

You seem to be casting stones at Hodgdon, implying a bad lot of powder, despite your friend’s extremely dangerous reloading and shooting practices. Doesn’t seem you have sufficient information to make those implications, so I’m wondering if there’s something else going on here.
 
Not casting stones at anyone. I asked a simple question. We all agree he was wrong to use his old load in a new rifle. Can we simply address the question i asked??

RMD
 
My manuals show 41.8 gr as max load with 143 AND 147 gr bullets and 39.2 gr as max with 130's. Doesn't make sense to me. I do know that often times when load data is being developed the max load listed in manuals isn't really the max load. Just as far as the manufacturer went with testing. I have my doubts that the powder charge of 43 gr with any 130 gr bullet is really the problem. My best loads with 140/143gr bullets are a touch over the 41.8 listed and they've never shown any problems in either of my 6.5 CM rifles

BUT.... the chambers are sized differently in my 2 rifles. I started with a Ruger Predator and the loads I had for that rifle simply wouldn't chamber in the newer Bergara. Factory loads would, but I found that I had to bump the shoulder back a tiny bit farther to get brass to fit the Bergara chamber even though it fit the Ruger just fine.

I suspect the issue is slightly different chamber dimensions between the 2 rifles.
 
Blue68f100 said:
I would be working on what blew up the other gun before firing anything. The cause is probably the same reason your having over pressure signs in the new gun. Need to back away and start over. Pull the bullets down and confirm the charge.
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While I'm not using h4350 or 6.5 creed. I hot pressure signs on a Max charge 24.9 gr of imr 4895 with 68 bthp hornandy match bullet in win brass. I did another work up with fed ae brass that produced a 1/2 in group of 7 shots at 100 yds it would have been 10 but I made 3 bad shots. The group was 1.25 with the 3 bad ones.

There are, as you know, factors too like bullet set back, different primers or thickened case necks that could have also caused his blown rifle. I agree with others that he should have started another workup.
 
rduckwor said:
Not casting stones at anyone. I asked a simple question. We all agree he was wrong to use his old load in a new rifle. Can we simply address the question i asked??

RMD
Click to expand...

Question for you... how much of this powder lot do you and he have? If you are talking a pound or two, I would either discard it, or use it on loads that aren't approaching maximum. If you have more, everyone else's experiences will be different... it's unlikely you are going to find someone having the same experiences with that exact lot of powder, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter. It may be an odd lot of powder, the powder itself may be compromised, and it could very well be a mix of powder charge, bullet profile, and a new rifle chamber... not just the specific lot of powder. I'm not throwing stones at you, but looking at it logically it could be anything BUT the powder, or a combination thereof.
 
Was Hodgdon contacted when the first rifle blew up? Have you contacted them now, since you seem to have a swollen case head seized into a second boltface?

If yes, what was their response? What was the result of the analysis they performed on the powder from your lot?
 
I wouldn't even question the powder lot till I'd gone back over everything else about the load, likely I'd find that I was jamming the lands.
 
horsey300 said:
I wouldn't even question the powder lot till I'd gone back over everything else about the load, likely I'd find that I was jamming the lands.
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I fully expect that was the issue, in both instances.

But I remain interested to hear from the OP how Hodgdon responded when the first rifle exploded, and if they have made any comment about the powder lot after the OP has swollen a case head to wedge tight in a boltface in a second rifle. If Hodgdon kicked out a bad lot of powder, I am certain they would want to know, and I would expect them to analyze the powder, maybe even issue a recall if it is found out of spec.

I’ve asked a few times, but I haven’t seen the OP post Hodgdon’s response to either incident.
 
rduckwor said:
Please check your lot numbers and let me know if any of you have experienced any "hot" loadings with a known formula using this lot or other lots of H4350. We both have used Hornady brass without issues for years.
Click to expand...

I went through over 18lbs of H4350 last season, in 9 different lots, in 3 different lots of Hornady 6.5 Creed and 6 creed brass. My “known formulas” did not yield any “hot loadings” from any of these, and did not destroy any of my rifles, nor seize a case head into any of my bolt faces. I’m 10lbs into this season, in 3 different lots, again, in 2 new lots of Hornady brass - no destroyed rifles this season yet either.

I do, however, size my ammunition to fit my chambers, and do execute the appropriate load work up for each barrel I own.
 
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