Texas shooter 'failed background check' but exploited loophole by buying through private sale

AlexanderA said:

FFL dealers would oppose this. They are looking forward to the transfer fees that they will be able to charge for UBC transactions. But to charge a transfer fee, they would have to run the gun through their inventory.

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I'm sure a lot of people would oppose it. Just not enough for it to matter. And again, if it's a new law, it can be written to incorporate a fee by the FFL. Or the person-to-person transfer could be facilitated elsewhere.

I'm just say, it's possible to have a UBC system without creating a registry, whilst still ensuring some level of oversight supported by authorized users of such a system.

CoalTrain49 said:

Depends on where you live.

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In Virginia how much of an upstanding citizen I may be might depend upon who you ask, but my daily habits don't automatically classify me as a felon.
If I start driving north and either forget to or refuse to change my habits, I don't get very far before I become a felon.

The anti-gun crowd has done such a good publicity campaign that I've met a number of people passing through who were absolutely terrified because to hear them tell it, "There's rednecks with guns out here."

TX Gov. gives executive orders:
https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/press/EO-GA_07_preventing_mass_attacks_IMAGE_09-05-2019.pdf

Order No. 1 Within thirty days of this order, the Texas Department of Public Safety shall develop standardized intake questions that can be used by all Texas law-enforcement agencies to better identify whether a person calling the agency has information that should be reported to the Texas Suspicious Activity Reporting Network.

Order No. 2 Within thirty days of this order, the Department of Public Safety shall develop clear guidance, based on the appropriate legal standard, for when and how Texas law-enforcement agencies should submit Suspicious Activity Reports.

Order No. 3 Within sixty days of this order, the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement shall make training available to educate all law-enforcement officers regarding the standards that will be developed pursuant to Order No. 1 and Order No. 2.

Order No. 4 The Department of Public Safety shall create and conduct an initiative to raise public awareness and understanding of how Suspicious Activity Reports are used by law-enforcement agencies to identify potential mass shooters or terroristic threats, so that the general public and friends, family members, coworkers, neighbors, and classmates will be more likely to report information about potential gunmen.

Order No. 5 The Department of Public Safety shall work with the Texas Education Agency and the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board on ways to better inform schools, students, staff, and families about the importance of Suspicious Activity Reports and how to initiate that process.

Order No. 6 The Department of Public Safety shall work with local law enforcement, mental-health professionals, school districts, and others to create multidisciplinary threat assessment teams for each of its regions, and when appropriate shall coordinate with federal partners.

Order No. 7 The Department of Public Safety, as well as the Office of the Governor, shall use all available resources to increase staff at all fusion centers in Texas for the purpose of better collecting and responding to Suspicious Activity Reports, and better monitoring and analyzing social media and other online forums, for potential threats.

Order No. 8 Beginning January 1, 2020, all future grant awards from the Office of the Governor to counties shall require a commitment that the county will report at least 90 percent of convictions within seven business days to the Criminal Justice Information System at the Department of Public Safety. By January 1, 2021, such reporting must take place within five business days.

AR-Bossman said:

Buy your gun from a store then, but without a CCP, you aren't buying anything from me or many other gun enthusiasts. Checking a CCP is at least one firewall between you and potential legal ruin. The rate of illegal gun use among CCP holders is very very very low.

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You have the right to make as many conditions as you want when selling a gun. However the street runs both ways.

Since you don't trust me unless I have a Government Permission Card what do you have to prove to me that you are not prohibited person, are not violating the law by not being a licensed gun dealer / manufacturer and the gun has not been reported lost or stolen?

The wonderful thing about where I live is I have the freedom to buy guns from many different sources. Unfortunately it sounds like where you live is flush with criminals trying to buy guns illegally.

Wronghanded certainly seems dead set on UBCs.

Another law that criminals won't obey.

GEM said:

The increasing number of state weapons and mag bans and the failure of challenges in the lower courts isn't a hopeful sign. Supposedly gun friendly VT and FL jumped on the restriction band wagon. I know folks think that now with Kavanugh and Gorsoch, SCOTUS will finally take a case and freedom reigns. I don't think so. Roberts is a loose cannon. He may feel that the court needs to go with past precedents and support state bans or come up with a fatally flawed decision that seems to support gun rights but doesn't.

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I share your concern about Roberts. I think he is a weak leader that is heavily influenced by the last person he talks to. With Scalia he was conservative but now I think he is being influenced by the ladies on the bench. That is why I think we need another Conservative Justice on the bench. Ginsburg is suffering from a lot of ailments (Cancer, loss of balance) but she has made it clear she does not intend to step down (she recently said she wants to serve 10 more years).

However overall we are gaining in the Federal Courts. President Trump is keeping his promise to appoint more conservative judges (and is doing so a record pace).

GEM said:

I know we have Heller true believers. However, the emphasis on self-defense and some restrictions have leaped out of the prose (yes, you can find other more positive prose) to support bans. The SD emphasis is insidious as the choir can write rationales that are very convincing for ARs (Ayoob does a great job), most folks don't see it and go for the weapons of war evil mantra. Shotgun Biden, Weapons of War Romney, Zumbo, Metcalf and well as our own Is 5 enough crowd supports that. The defense against tyranny mantra is not one put forward much by the major gun organizations like the NRA. Their marketing found that it didn't sell as well as SD. The defense against tyranny - how to play that? Wild eye libertine, sex mad liberal will take you guns and institute the Green New Deal and Medicare for All. Or the threat that has pushed increased minority fears and support for gun rights (guess who is the star of that threat profile)? The generic use of the threat of tyranny gets confounded with a partisan view of the upcoming tyranny.

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I agree that Heller and McDonald are not as big of victories as many claim. All it did was to affirm the Castle Doctrine.

A lot of importance is being put on the NYC case before the Court. The expectation is NYC is going to be another big pro-gun victory. Suppose the Court upholds NYC law (well what it was when the case was appealed.

GEM said:

The supposed progun party was never a proactive progun party. They were happy to let the issue fester for votes and checks. Many of them actually were OK with restrictions.

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Politicians regardless of Party are primarily concerned with staying in Office. We have been poorly represented by the Republicans for a long time. Remember even President Reagan sold us out.

WrongHanded said:

I'm just say, it's possible to have a UBC system without creating a registry, whilst still ensuring some level of oversight supported by authorized users of such a system.

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The other side just won't ever accept it and won't rest until they get REGISTRATION and CONFISCATION.

40-82 said:

In Virginia how much of an upstanding citizen I may be might depend upon who you ask, but my daily habits don't automatically classify me as a felon.
If I start driving north and either forget to or refuse to change my habits, I don't get very far before I become a felon.

The anti-gun crowd has done such a good publicity campaign that I've met a number of people passing through who were absolutely terrified because to hear them tell it, "There's rednecks with guns out here."

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They are more afraid of armed fellows running through woods in camo than of government agents. That is why convincing them that armed citizens are needed to control excessive reach of government will never work.
I paid $7.97 for 50 rounds of 9 Luger ball ammo. A whole BBQ chicken at Walmart is about $4.50 or $4.99 at Wegmans. A 100 round box of Federal 9x19 ball ammo is $17.97 which is similar to acceptable bottle of dinner wine all the way from France. One is never going to convince non-gun owning person that box of ammo is money wisely spent.

AlexanderA said:

FFL dealers would oppose this. They are looking forward to the transfer fees that they will be able to charge for UBC transactions..

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You're funny.
1. ATF already has a process for licensed dealers to perform private party transfers. (what would be required for UBC's) I've not noticed any dealers in Texas knocking out radio ads about "I duz Brady checkz!!!"
2. Name the dealers "looking forward" to this. I'll wait.
Note that WalMart chose to no longer sell guns in New Mexico because of a state law requiring them to conduct private party background checks. I stopped doing private party transfers because of general foolishness by buyer and seller. Sitting at my dining room table is not the place to renegotiate the deal you agreed to last night.
3. Many licensed dealers choose to not do ANY transfers. Period. They want to sell from their own inventory. They figure every transfer is one less sale.

But to charge a transfer fee, they would have to run the gun through their inventory

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I can charge you for breathing the same air as me.
It seems you dislike the idea of FFL's charging a fee for running a background check. So.....tell us what work YOU perform for free. Does that include fines and imprisonment for violating procedures, errors or omissions in your recordkeeping? Are your utilities, phone, internet free? How about your liability and theft insurance? Security system and safes?

Please don't be one of those dolts that thinks transfers and background checks are "pure profit" for the FFL.

Mousegun said:

Mousegun said: ↑
I have a written form for selling a gun privately. It contains all the information about the gun, the date, names and addresses etc.

It also includes a question asking if the buyer meets all legal requirement to purchase a gun in a yes or no format and before the sale, the buyer must answer and initial each question or the sale is a no go..

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And what protections do you think this "form" offers you?
Good grief man.....why is there no essay question? EVERYONE KNOWS there has to be an essay question.

Deanimator said:

The other side just won't ever accept it and won't rest until they get REGISTRATION and CONFISCATION.

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The middle-of-the-road folks might accept it. You know, that growing majority of the population that believes UBCs will be effective. There are always going to be those who want to ban all guns, and they use spin to get the support they need. Right now they have a lot of support, which happens to be a fairly large majority. I think they're going to get universal background checks. I'd just prefer they didn't get a version that can be used to create a registry.

I would like to remind folks that although the site is "The High Road" it has nothing to do with being stoned all the time.

Some of you I think may be on the wrong forum.

WrongHanded said:

The middle-of-the-road folks might accept it. You know, that growing majority of the population that believes UBCs will be effective. There are always going to be those who want to ban all guns, and they use spin to get the support they need. Right now they have a lot of support, which happens to be a fairly large majority. I think they're going to get universal background checks. I'd just prefer they didn't get a version that can be used to create a registry.

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The "middle of the road" folks aren't driving this. They're being DRIVEN by lying sociopaths whose goal is a total monopoly on the means of armed force. Nothing short of that will satisfy them and as long as they don't have it they'll keep shrieking for it.

Don't be deceived. It's an extremist movement led by extremists.

Good Ol' Boy said:

I would like to remind folks that although the site is "The High Road" it has nothing to do with being stoned all the time.

Some of you I think may be on the wrong forum.

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Yes, but magical thinking keeps people from having to confront harsh realities.

Deanimator said:

The "middle of the road" folks aren't driving this. They're being DRIVEN by lying sociopaths whose goal is a total monopoly on the means of armed force. Nothing short of that will satisfy them and as long as they don't have it they'll keep shrieking for it.

Don't be deceived. It's an extremist movement led by extremists.

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I think you've missed my point. The middle-of-the-road people are the voters, and they are where the power is at. So whilst I completely understand that they are not driving it, they currently seem to be onboard with it. They have been convinced the UBCs will work. And no gun owners telling them the opposite, with no viable alternative to gun violence, is going to change their minds.

You really don't need to tell me that there is an elite and powerful group out there trying to disarm the American people. I already know that. Hopefully you realize that, just as elections are won and lost by the independent voters, so too are agendas written into law.

For those of you that are committed to having UBC laws enacted. You do realize that YOU can conduct your OWN background checks on BUYERS for FREE.

Yup. NO Government agency is involved, NO new laws need to be passed. NO waiting period. NO cost.

But...

But...

What do you mean? How can that be possible?

Many States publish conviction records that are available for free on the Internet. Simply type in the buyers name in Google and use their date of birth as confirmation if you get a hit.

Imagine that. Using existing technology to obtain information that is at your fingertips.

WrongHanded said:

I think you've missed my point. The middle-of-the-road people are the voters, and they are where the power is at. So whilst I completely understand that they are not driving it, they currently seem to be onboard with it. They have been convinced the UBCs will work. And no gun owners telling them the opposite, with no viable alternative to gun violence, is going to change their minds.

You really don't need to tell me that there is an elite and powerful group out there trying to disarm the American people. I already know that. Hopefully you realize that, just as elections are won and lost by the independent voters, so too are agendas written into law.

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I've had considerable success showing people that they're being lied to. Normal people don't like being lied to and react badly to it. As for abnormal people, who cares?

Deanimator said:

I've had considerable success showing people that they're being lied to. Normal people don't like being lied to and react badly to it. As for abnormal people, who cares?

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That's interesting. I've found that despite forming a logical and reasonable explanation of a given situation, many people are too small minded or brainwashed to even consider a point of view that conflicts with their deeply held belief that they are right. Especially when they surround themselves with others who think and feel exactly the same way, and don't hesitate to disregard or even demonize those with apposing views.

But as you seem to be much more successful than I am at changing people's minds, there's a lot of people out there who are absolutely convinced UBCs will fix all the gun violence. You might want to go talk to them.

WrongHanded said:

That's interesting. I've found that despite forming a logical and reasonable explanation of a given situation, many people are too small minded or brainwashed to even consider a point of view that conflicts with their deeply held belief that they are right. Especially when they surround themselves with others who think and feel exactly the same way, and don't hesitate to disregard or even demonize those with apposing views.

But as you seem to be much more successful than I am at changing people's minds, there's a lot of people out there who are absolutely convinced UBCs will fix all the gun violence. You might want to go talk to them.

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I don't waste my time on "activists". I concentrate on normal people who are I'll informed. I show them the lies and who's telling them. I specialize in getting the sociopaths to make statements against penal interest, especially racial ones. Hilarity ensues...

Palolosj said:

They are more afraid of armed fellows running through woods in camo than of government agents.

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This made me smile. Half (or more) of the "armed fellows running through woods in camo" are government agents. The fastest way to get on the government radar is to join a so-called "militia."

AlexanderA said:

This made me smile. Half (or more) of the "armed fellows running through woods in camo" are government agents. The fastest way to get on the government radar is to join a so-called "militia."

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That makes perfect sense. In multicultural, multiethnic, multiracial societies like Russia and United States nationalist tendencies are destabilizing and would need to be addressed.

GEM said:

The increasing number of state weapons and mag bans and the failure of challenges in the lower courts isn't a hopeful sign. Supposedly gun friendly VT and FL jumped on the restriction band wagon. I know folks think that now with Kavanugh and Gorsoch, SCOTUS will finally take a case and freedom reigns. I don't think so. Roberts is a loose cannon. He may feel that the court needs to go with past precedents and support state bans or come up with a fatally flawed decision that seems to support gun rights but doesn't.

I know we have Heller true believers. However, the emphasis on self-defense and some restrictions have leaped out of the prose (yes, you can find other more positive prose) to support bans. The SD emphasis is insidious as the choir can write rationales that are very convincing for ARs (Ayoob does a great job), most folks don't see it and go for the weapons of war evil mantra. Shotgun Biden, Weapons of War Romney, Zumbo, Metcalf and well as our own Is 5 enough crowd supports that. The defense against tyranny mantra is not one put forward much by the major gun organizations like the NRA. Their marketing found that it didn't sell as well as SD. The defense against tyranny - how to play that? Wild eye libertine, sex mad liberal will take you guns and institute the Green New Deal and Medicare for All. Or the threat that has pushed increased minority fears and support for gun rights (guess who is the star of that threat profile)? The generic use of the threat of tyranny gets confounded with a partisan view of the upcoming tyranny.

The supposed progun party was never a proactive progun party. They were happy to let the issue fester for votes and checks. Many of them actually were OK with restrictions.

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This.

I'm not sure how anyone can have even a small amount of certainty about any decision by the SC regarding ones RKBA or 2A related issues. Kavanaugh and Gorsuch are not locked into a pro gun vote. Kavanaugh has demonstrated that he votes with Roberts more often than not. Roberts is very unpredictable and Kavanaugh is proving to be just as unpredictable.

With new state restrictions coming at a furious pace it would not surprise me one bit if the SC does not capitulate again and roll with popular state and lower federal court decisions. It's been known to happen. The SC has a very good excuse to do that if they want. All they have to do is defer to 10A and leave it where it's been for 200 years, citing states rights to provide for public safety much like posting speed limits on highways. They don't have to twist anything using 14A like they have in the past. It is a republic after all and that's about as far as the SC needs to go with that.

People need to wake up to the fact the SC is not going to protect your right to own a semi-auto rifle with a 20 rd. magazine. Nor are they going to say you can carry anywhere you wish.

2. Name the dealers "looking forward" to this. I'll wait.

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I know two dealers here locally (within a 10 minute drive) that both do private transfers for a fee. Takes about 20 minutes. I know a few dealers that charge $50 for a private transfer. Who wouldn't do 20 minutes of work for $50, or even $30?

So a better question might be name the dealers who won't do a private transfer in a UBC state.

You don't live in a state that has a UBC so dealers don't have a state mandated supply of customers calling them everyday. You probably can't set your fees very high either because private transactions are still legal in TX without a BC. Nobody is going to pay a you $25-$50 for a transfer if they don't have to.

I wouldn't do a private transfer for $10 either.

3. Many licensed dealers choose to not do ANY transfers. Period. They want to sell from their own inventory. They figure every transfer is one less sale.

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Many licensed dealers don't have inventory, at least the small ones don't. I know five that don't.

CoalTrain49 said:

People need to wake up to the fact the SC is not going to protect your right to own a semi-auto rifle with a 20 rd. magazine.

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Since we can't rely on the SC to void an AWB, and we can't rely on the legislature(s) not to enact one, the final line of resistance is going to be individual non-compliance. I can almost guarantee that this would be widespread. What's the country going to be like with a widespread culture of lawlessness? That's what needs to be considered more in this whole debate.