Gun show loophole?

The average gun owner hasn't a clue ,as to whether or not an individual is clean or not !. How does one access a persons records or background , YOU DON'T !.
Feds supposedly do that but one has to ask themselves in this day and age ; Do the Feds really do any background checks and how through are they ,especially given the alphabet agencies current corruption !.
Ever bother to look at the political analysis of 98% of mass shooter's ?. You can bet your last $ ,that's WHY lame stream media NEVER goes there !.

FBI's own statistics bears out that FACT !. As previously stated there is " NO GUN SHOW LOOP HOLE " ,it's a political firearms control verse and NOTHING more !.
 
Universal Background Checks do not require the government to keep a registry of gun owners. I explained that in my post that you first quoted.
Correct. Problem is, that does require that the government, including every person working within it (or at least every person that has anything to do with firearms laws, either legislating or enforcement), is currently and will remain, for all time, completely trustworthy. Do you completely and totally trust the US government and everyone working in it?
 
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It's getting close to election time and Biden has to show he is doing something to satisfy his fans. This is what politicions do best, appear to be doing something while actually doing nothing.
 
We have to choose our battles. I'm okay with Universal Background checks. I'm opposed to a federal registry of all guns (yes I know they can already collect them from background checks). And as for the so called "assault rifle" bans, I'm sure these are unconstitutional. The Supreme Court will win that battle for us.

If they are going to address the gun show loophole I'd think they'd just go for a Universal Background check.

I agree. It is nice to hear others of the same opinion.
 
Of course a Universal Background Check law can't be retroactive.
Of course it can--at least in the sense of applying effectively and "enforceably" to future sales of guns in private hands. By adding a registration requirement. That's the whole point. The people who want every gun sale to be background checked will also want to be able to prosecute those who don't comply. Having millions and millions of guns out there that can be bought and sold without background checks will not be a happy thing for them and it's a very good bet that unhappy situation will lead to attempts to remedy that "problem". A registry is the obvious solution.
Universal Background Checks do not require the government to keep a registry of gun owners.
Correct. But the whole point of UBC is to monitor all transactions--without a registry, people can easily bypass the UBC requirement with virtually no chance of being caught and prosecuted. UBC does not REQUIRE a registry of gun owners, but the POINT of a UBC law will be largely thwarted without a registry because there are estimated to be hundreds of millions of firearms already in private hands. The government has no way of knowing for sure who owns them and therefore they would have no way of knowing for sure if those guns transferred ownership without a UBC, in violation of a UBC law.

Right now we're talking about a commonly described "Loophole" (The Gun Show Loophole) that isn't really a loophole at all. UBC without a registry really does have a loophole--a huge one that literally hundreds of millions of guns can fit through. IMO, it's quite reasonable to expect that passage of a UBC law would immediately be followed by attempts to plug that loophole. My feeling is that although I'm not really opposed to UBC in theory, I'd rather fight against plugging a loophole that isn't really a loophole than against a loophole that very obviously is really a loophole.

The second issue I have with UBC is one of principle. I don't believe UBC should exist at the federal level because it requires torturing the commerce clause to make it seem constitutional. If a state wants UBC, that's where the law should be passed.
 
Here’s how a Universal Background Check doesn’t work. I bought a gun at a flea market in 1994 and I sell it to Joe Badguy, who then uses it to kill his wife. ATF calls the maker and the trace dead ends five owners ago. If Joe Badguy claims I sold him the gun I say ”There’s no proof I ever touched that gun. He must have me confused with some other guy who used my name to hide his tracks.” Or (and this is how it really works) Joe Badguy never knew my name to begin with.
That's not a UBC, that's a 'universal' NICS check, something presently restricted to Federally-licensed dealers (as they can be said to be engaged in interstate commerce).
The Feebs keep telling us that the NICS system is running "beyond capacity" (because we plebes keep buying arms). That's very much the reason they want POC States to "do their own work" and not tax the NICS, themselves--it reduced the NICS workload.

Do the Feds really do any background checks
For security and similar clearances. Takes about six to eight weeks to be done to an average level of completeness. And needs 6-8 employees, typically Federal, and that's per investigation.

What NICS actually is, is a list of Prohibited persons, and their recorded 'permanent' address (when they became Prohibited).

So, an entry looks like: "Person, Very Bad, of 123 Not My Street, Perdition, NIMBY County, East Virginia."

A NICS Query applies your Name, and your Address, and looks for a matching NICS entry.

That's all it does.

Now, if there's also an entry (prohibited people often are "multiple winners") for Person Very, of 123 Not My Street, Perdition, NIMBY County, West Dakota, then, there's a Partial Match. Partial Matches are meant to get a Delay, so that a human can look at the records and try and decide if there's a misspelling, or what. That's complicated, there are around 11 million entries in the NCIS list.*

In some ways, it's a clever thing. Persons '68 GCA create as Prohibited, have generally already lost some of their rights already, to "registering" them is no greater burden upon their liberties than they already have. Mind this requires that we all agree that 68 GCA is a legitimate exercise of the federal government--many of us have strong opinions on that.

Now, looking here: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_day_month_year.pdf/view
We see that there were 69,000 NICS queries in just July of 2023.
Getting even gross numbers of results is (unnecessarily) complicated, but, let's presume 80% were Proceed--those took perhaps 5 minutes per each to process.
It's a ton of work in raw numbers, but not overwhelming when reduced to manhours.

Now, let's say the UBC got its way and there was a full BI on everybody every time. at 8 weeks per each, they would not be finished with the first thousand or so right now. it would bog down to where getting Forms for suppressors are right now (the improved 'right now' not a year ago). There are any number of folk who would suggest that's not a "bug" but a "feature" of such proposals.

Make of that what you will.
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*Note, NICS was implemented in the 80s, using 70s-era software and 60s-era hardware and paper records dating back to WW I. Lore is that the various Prohibited persons records were initially complied on punchcards by government sub-contract data entry companies. Despite FOIA and Congressional Inquiries, what steps were used to verify the accuracy of the data-entry, let alone the records, has yet to be released. We already know that there are several States who have not released any Mental Health info to NICS. That many States only released 80% of their known info. Some estimates are that NICS is only about 50% accurate on it's face. Now, that dire assessment is from misspelings, duplicate information, deceased persons, inaccurate addresses, all the various ills of systems not designed to be audited.
 
That's not a UBC, that's a 'universal' NICS check...
Right, but when the term UBC is bandied about in the context of firearms, what is really meant is Universal NICS. At least, at this time, I don't believe anyone is talking about doing real background checks in the sense of what is done for clearances or similar.
 
... unhappy situation will lead to attempts to remedy that "problem". A registry is the obvious solution.

--without a registry, people can easily bypass the UBC requirement with virtually no chance of being caught and prosecuted. UBC does not REQUIRE a registry of gun owners, but the POINT of a UBC law will be largely thwarted without a registry because there are estimated to be hundreds of millions of firearms already in private hands. The government has no way of knowing for sure who owns them and therefore they would have no way of knowing for sure if those guns transferred ownership without a UBC, in violation of a UBC law.

A Universal Background Check most certainly does not require the government keep a registry of all private firearms.

A lot of people think that if a gun used to be owned by Bill and now Tom owns the gun, then a registry is the only way that can resolve the firearm changing hands. I don't know if that's your position but it's wrong. A registry is not needed for a Universal Background Check to work. A Universal Background Check works the same way a Background Check works for new guns.

I don't think a Universal Background Check is so bad but I'm very much opposed to a government registry of all guns. They are separate issues.
 
There is no requirement in TN to have a CCW permit for private sales. As long as the sale doesn't involve a prohibited person , it's legal.
 
A lot of people think that if a gun used to be owned by Bill and now Tom owns the gun, then a registry is the only way that can resolve the firearm changing hands. I don't know if that's your position but it's wrong. A registry is not needed for a Universal Background Check to work.
You have yet to convincingly explain how I am wrong. Please explain how an illegal private sale of a pre-1968 firearm by an anonymous seller could be prosecuted for violating the UBC law unless caught in the act.
 
Durango Dave said:
A Universal Background Check most certainly does not require the government keep a registry of all private firearms.
You literally quoted me saying that same thing.
JohnKSa said:
UBC does not REQUIRE a registry of gun owners, but the POINT of a UBC law will be largely thwarted without a registry because there are estimated to be hundreds of millions of firearms already in private hands.
Durango Dave said:
A Universal Background Check works the same way a Background Check works for new guns.
I know how it works. The issue isn't how it works, the issue is how to enforce it. It's essentially unenforceable without registration--at least for the hundreds of millions of guns already in private hands.
Durango Dave said:
A lot of people think that if a gun used to be owned by Bill and now Tom owns the gun, then a registry is the only way that can resolve the firearm changing hands.
The issue is that without a registry, enforcement of UBC is nearly impossible for the hundreds of millions of guns that are already out there. It's not that UBC requires registration, it's that without it, if privately owned guns that were in circulation prior to the implementation of UBC change hands without a BC, there's almost no way to prove they did and prosecute those who violated the law.

That creates a loophole where the hundreds of millions of guns already in private hands can be bought and sold without background checks and there's almost no way to catch the people doing it. Since that's antithetical to the goals of the people who want UBC, it makes sense that there's going to be an immediate push for registration so that when guns change hands without going through the background check it will be easy to show that the UBC law has been circumvented.

So UBC doesn't require a registry (how many times have I said that now?) but a push for registration is going to be a rapid result of UBC given the very obvious problems of enforcing a UBC without registration.
 
That's not a UBC, that's a 'universal' NICS check
Right. And let's remember that this NICS check is not checking the guns; it's checking the (prospective) owners. So the particullar gun that is being purchased is irrelevant. Even a stolen gun wouldn't trigger a red flag on a NICS check. It's a data base of disqualified persons, not a data base of stolen guns.

Why would a gun registry be necessary for this system to work? I don't see why it would, considering that the system is not airtight in the first place.

(The gun information is entered in the dealer's "bound book," and the Forms 4473, which document the NICS check but are not strictly speaking part of it. If the gun later is used in crime, traces can be done using these documents, but the trail comes to an end when there's a discontinuity of custody, even if another Form 4473 is later filled out at another dealer. Remember that traces always start with the manufacturer, not with some random local dealer.)
 
You still can under federal law (as long as the transaction doesn't take place across state lines) and you still can in most states.

There is no Gun Show Loophole. Basically federal law allows private sales between non-licensed individuals as long as both are residents of the same state and the seller has no reason to believe the buyer is a prohibited person. That's true whether the sale takes place at one person's home, in a car, on the sidewalk, or at a Gun Show.
They CALL it the "gun show loophole" but they mean private sales. If you look at the provisions they specify, a huge percentage of previous private people will now be considered dealers by the ATF.
 
A true, enforceable UBC law is only possible if you can prove a gun was transferred without a background check. To do that you need to be able to prove someone else possessed it prior to the current possessor, and that there was no legal transfer. The only way to consistently do that is by having a record of who used to possess it, and that means having a registry.

If I catch Joe Citizen with a gun he can simply say “I bought it in a private sale prior to the UBC law” so UBC would only work on guns made after the law was implemented. The only way to make it work with older guns is for the government to retroactively link older guns to owners. Make no mistake, UBC is a step on the road to a registery.
Thank you for the clear explanation. :)
 
You literally quoted me saying that same thing.I know how it works. The issue isn't how it works, the issue is how to enforce it. It's essentially unenforceable without registration--at least for the hundreds of millions of guns already in private hands.
The issue is that without a registry, enforcement of UBC is nearly impossible for the hundreds of millions of guns that are already out there. It's not that UBC requires registration, it's that without it, if privately owned guns that were in circulation prior to the implementation of UBC change hands without a BC, there's almost no way to prove they did and prosecute those who violated the law.

That creates a loophole where the hundreds of millions of guns already in private hands can be bought and sold without background checks and there's almost no way to catch the people doing it. Since that's antithetical to the goals of the people who want UBC, it makes sense that there's going to be an immediate push for registration so that when guns change hands without going through the background check it will be easy to show that the UBC law has been circumvented.

So UBC doesn't require a registry (how many times have I said that now?) but a push for registration is going to be a rapid result of UBC given the very obvious problems of enforcing a UBC without registration.
One interesting unintended consequence of a registry-free UBC will be increasing the value of guns that have been privately transferred before. Like 15 round mags after 1994 or machine guns after 1986, this now fixed quantity will be increasingly sought after by people who don’t want an FFL recording what guns they own.

Even now the guys selling private guns at shows often ask more than dealers selling the same guns new, and some people are willing to pay a premium for a gun ‘off the books.’
 
Talk about being Pollyannish... I'm wondering if some posting actually are paying attention. The call for gun registration in this country is coming through loud and clear. Yes, private sales as we know them are doomed. It's just a matter of time.

And what I know is that private sales are exceptionally problematic in Washington state these days. Our gun shows are withering on the vine. Ads for private sales have diminished drastically, since all firearms sales must now go through an FFL.

I am by no means a conspiracy theorist, nor do I claim the ability to read the tea leaves, but it simply seems to follow that the next step beyond UBCs will be for complete registration of all firearms, with the certainty that the state and federal governments will require all citizens to come forth and provide the makes, models and serial numbers of each and every firearm they own.

Oh, us members of the proletariat will still be allowed to purchase and possess firearms (less those classed as "assault weapons" or those that take magazines with a capacity of 11 or more), but the hoops we'll have to jump through will be sorely labor-intensive and we'll not be able to carry our handguns concealed in public (in the places that we need to) nor will we be able to transport our "more capable" firearms in our vehicles, even from home to the range and back. And we will not be able to procure new firearms without government knowledge and our new stuff being in a database.

For those of you in states such as Florida, Arizona, Idaho, Arkansas, et all, who disagree with me on this, let's just resolve to remember that I said this on September 3, 2023. I'm seeing the same sort of hubris in this thread (and similar threads in this forum and elsewhere) that I saw among my fellow Washington state gun-owners before the general elections and voting on certain initiatives that resulted in our current draconian gun laws.
 
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Before Oregon required a background check on private party sales I had NEVER bought or sold a firearm to/from a stranger. After background checks started being required I have bought many firearms from private parties I found through the internet and sold a couple likewise connecting through the internet. Before background checks there was no way of knowing if I was selling to / buying from a convicted felon so I just didn't.

I am pro universal background checks.

I am against gun registration.

I would vote for universal background checks if it had a provision to make it illegal for the government at any level to assemble lists of gun owners and/or a list of the weapons they own.

Yes, there are people out there that would like universal registration and people that would also love universal confiscation. That is no reason to not put in place a system to help law abiding responsible gun owners keep from selling firearms to felons. Will felons still be able to get guns? Yes. Will I be the one selling the guns to them? No! I feel that I have a responsibility as a gun owner to do my best to keep firearms that I sell out of the hands of criminals. Required background checks makes this easier to accomplish.

A slippery slope argument insists a course of action is rejected because, with little or no evidence, one insists that it will lead to a chain reaction resulting in an undesirable end or ends. The slippery slope involves an acceptance of a succession of events without direct evidence that this course of events will happen.

Background checks and gun registration are two completely different concepts. I hear more from gun owners that want to lump them together than I do from the anti-gunners trying to lump them together.

I know there are people who will never accept universal background checks. I also know there are people who will accept nothing but universal confiscation of all privately owned firearms. I know it is fruitless to try to sway people of either of these far right or far left views. The people somewhere in the middle are the ones that need to prompt meaningful dialog about what is reasonable and what isn't reasonable instead of letting the debate be guided by the far left or far right factions.

P.S. I really appreciate hearing from actual gun owners how firearm sales operate in their regions. By hearing how things actually work I feel I can more knowledgably talk about the subject than people who's entire gun education comes from the media.
 
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Background checks and gun registration are two completely different concepts.
Please explain how an illegal private sale of a pre-1968 firearm by an anonymous seller could be prosecuted for violating the UBC law without a registry, unless caught in the act.

If you feed the gator he might eat you last, but make no mistake, eat you he will.
 
So does this new rule mean the end of private sales without being an FFL?
 
While it may be theoretically possible to have UBCs w/o registration, such a system would be very short-lived indeed. At least IMHO. If UBCs pass, a call for registration would be hot on its heels. IIRC, there have been a couple federal UBC bills in the past 10-15 years that stood a reasonable chance of passing. (Manchin-Toomey?) Those bills were ultimately rejected, because they did not require the buyer and seller to enter the make, model & serial number. I’ll rephrase for emphasis: a UBC bill could have passed, but was ultimately rejected because firearm information did not have to be included. If the proponents of UBCs only want to “check people,” they don’t need gun information.
 
NOTICE: A closed thread that contains pertinent info to this thread. Closed thread was closed due to , this thread....


That short thread contains a clickable link. Here...


Ok so the appeasers and get alongers know, they don't want to get along. Within the doc. it states several points clearly...

the opening statement ''In March, President Biden signed an Executive Order directing the Attorney General to move as close to universal background checks as possible within existing law.''

Do EVERYTHING possible to restrict normal trading/selling of lawful items to lawful persons.

The REAL goal gets a lot clearer in para#4 . bottom section...

''The proposed rule includes a number of other situations where, in civil and administrative proceedings and absent reliable evidence to the contrary, it will be presumed that you need a license.''

TRANSLATION: YOU will have the burden of proof, prove YOUR actions are lawful. The polar opposite of normal legal proceedings, the burden falling upon the state.

Some ppl will donate to wonderful established pro-2A organizations suing these proceedings:thumbup:, some will do nothing:uhoh:, some will eat crayons I suppose (HINT: purple is NOT grape, green is NOT watermelon)AKA, do nothing

Remember, doing nothing is actually doing something, but your opponents think nothing is...wonderful activity haha
🤣
 
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