No
Gun show loophole?
- Thread starter MikeInOr
- Start date
No
What would lead you to believe that they would abide by that law, if it existed?
Unless I am mistaken, there are already some laws in place that (in theory) prohibit gun registries. To be more specific, I think (but am not entirely certain) that the BATFE is prohibited from creating a gun registry. Nonetheless, I believe that I've read (on the internet, so take it for what it's worth) that the BATFE is busy scanning millions of pages of bound book that have been surrendered over the years. In the age of optical character recognition software, I have no doubt whatsoever that the scanned pages will be turned into a registry.
NYS already has a registry. They list all your handguns on your permits. Don't know about other states. Interesting to see what states do that. If you fear that a registry leads to confiscation and midnight raids from the government - your permit will be enough reason to do that. Doesn't Heller void the possibility of any mandated confiscation anyway?
That’s good, but I’m not really seeing the delineation from what is required to be an FFL. I thought at first it was five firearms per year according to their new ruling in order to be considered “in the business”. The only exception I now see, that is actually clear and not poorly written is that if one sells to a family member. All the rest seems kind of ambiguous. Ami I missing something?
I just posted this in the OP, but just for ease of reference: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms
From the referenced ATF doc. https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...prm-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download
The new rule says you can't advertise or promote a gun, and you can't use a temporary or permanent place to display guns for sale. So it doesn't end private sales, but I don't know how anyone is supposed to know you have a gun for sale if you don't put out a table at a gun show, post the gun for sale online, or put a note on theh bulletin board at the range. You're not allowed to market the gun in any way.
I guess you can still sell to your brother or neighbor, but they have to come to you and ask if you have something for sale.
Maybe that's not the way the rule will be enforced, but that's the way it's written.
Please show where that is in - https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...prm-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download
I'm almost with Durango Dave or Mike in Or- just pass UBC. Then nobody sells guns unless he's a dealer. It ends the confusion.
It's just almost completely unenforceable with 400 million gun already out there- unless you voluntarily take the sale to a dealer, no one has visibility to it. Even if it does, a lot of guns aren't traceable. I'd guess half my collection is untraceable, even a lot of the used guns I've bought from dealers.
Even a good UBC and registration system has a lot of holes. I'll bet there are hundreds of cars rolling around my county right now with a unique 17 digit VIN that aren't registered. They're stolen or no registration, stolen tags, or no tags. And that's 2 tons of steel and glass in public, not a rusty model 10 in a shoebox under somebody's bed.
It's just almost completely unenforceable with 400 million gun already out there- unless you voluntarily take the sale to a dealer, no one has visibility to it. Even if it does, a lot of guns aren't traceable. I'd guess half my collection is untraceable, even a lot of the used guns I've bought from dealers.
Even a good UBC and registration system has a lot of holes. I'll bet there are hundreds of cars rolling around my county right now with a unique 17 digit VIN that aren't registered. They're stolen or no registration, stolen tags, or no tags. And that's 2 tons of steel and glass in public, not a rusty model 10 in a shoebox under somebody's bed.
Read (1) carefully. It says you can't market a firearms business, and uses specific examples of what that entails- it includes listing firearms for sale.
I get why creating a website and printing business cards for "Wayne's Unlicensed Gun Shop" might indicate I am engaging in the business of selling firearms. (I don't think the rule is needed for a reasonable person to infer that.) But just listing firearms for sale?
(2) seems to target gun shows. It doesn't even have to be a paid event. It would apply to setting up a table at a range event or match, or a flea market.
Shanvanvocht
Member
NJ, through the purchase permit system, has registered every handgun sold since 1966. So far, they have not registered long arms. However, anyone moving into NJ is required to register ALL the firearms they currently possess. How long do you think it will take them to include long arm sales in their registry?
Elkins45
Member
That’s one area where public comment can make a real difference. One comment I plan to make is regarding private sales at gun shows. Assuming I don’t die suddenly there will be a time in the future where I will need to sell a bunch of guns before I die to save my wife the trouble. The most efficient way for me to do that will be to set up a table at a gun show and liquidate my collection. Liquidating one’s collection of personal firearms is now expressly used as an example of an allowable private sale.
Any proposed rule needs to differentiate between persons who set up a gun show table 2-3 times in their entire lives as opposed to the ones who do it 2-3 times a month.
dogtown tom
Member
Never, in the fifteen years I've been an FFL, have I submitted a buyers address for an FBI NICS check.
An FBI NICS check includes the following information ONLY:
Full name
State of Residence
Place of Birth
Height/Weight/Sex
Birth Date
Social Security# (optional)
UPIN (if the buyer has one)
Ethnicity & Race
Country of Citizenship
If not a US citizen, their USCIS#
Type of firearm (handgun/long gun/other)
Type of Gov photo ID and the number.
dogtown tom
Member
Federal law prohibits FBI NICS from keeping any record of "proceeds" beyond the close of the NICS business day (Midnight Central time)
The are allowed under the Brady Law to keep "delayed" transactions until the status changes to a proceed, then must delete that transaction from their system.
"Denied" transaction information is kept permanently.
As Elins45 says
Where we find that language is unclear, ignores realities of private sales, or goes too far into changing the meaning of the law we need to make solid comments under the comment period. We're motivated to identify the flaws and pitfalls in the language they present and should be motivated enough to submit them formally.
dogtown tom
Member
True.
Despite federal law prohibiting FBI NICS from retaining the results of "proceeds", they did. Congress found out and made it clear that was a violation of federal law.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I think it would be pretty easy to the FBI to save the information beyond their business day.
dogtown tom
Member
The Brady Law didn't take effect until 1994..
NICS began in 1998.
dogtown tom
Member
Yet it doesn't.
Federal agencies, especially ATF, routinely ignores public comment. The number of comments directed at recent ATF regulatory changes show overwhelming disagreement with the proposed regulations. It's not a popularity contest and the agency is not looking for our approval or disapproval.
All of these received more than 90% disagreement:
2021R-5 Definition of "Frame or Receiver" and Identification of Firearms
41P imposing additional filing requirements for the making and transfer of firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act
Redefining the definition of "machine gun" to include bump stocks
2021R-08F Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached ‘Stabilizing Braces
I don't completely agree.
We saw ATF withdraw, and rework, language in the past couple of years. Did they resubmit? Yes. Had they made changes? Yes. Did they drop the effort? Sadly, NO. BUT, they adjusted for the cogent comments.
If the 90% of comments were no better than "What part of Shall Not Be Infringed don't you get.", as we sadly see, then they're throw away comments. If the comments are the more "polite" "I am opposed to this and any change further restricting the rights of citizens." then those won't have an effect. Sadly, I see that the vast majority of comments are those two sorts so I don't consider the idea that 90% of comments are ignored of any surprise.
You have to work hard with the organizations like SAF/CCRKBA, FPC, and the other pro-2A organizations when making comments if you expect them to have an impact.
dogtown tom
Member
Yet while seemingly laughable, those determinations are pretty accurate because of the way Congress wrote the law. We laugh at "shoestring", but if that can make a firearm fire more than one round per function of the trigger it meets the definition of MG in federal law.
Definition of machine gun
Machine gun.
Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. For purposes of this definition, the term “automatically” as it modifies “shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot,” means functioning as the result of a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism that allows the firing of multiple rounds through a single function of the trigger; and “single function of the trigger” means a single pull of the trigger and analogous motions. The term “machine gun” includes a bump-stock-type device, i.e., a device that allows a semi-automatic firearm to shoot more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger by harnessing the recoil energy of the semi-automatic firearm to which it is affixed so that the trigger resets and continues firing without additional physical manipulation of the trigger by the shooter.
ATF DID originally say the shoestring itself was a machine gun, but I think that was a poorly written determination letter. They revised that determination a few years later. Here's a link to both letters: SHOESTRING MACHINE GUN
While a "shoestring" isn't by itself a machine gun, using one (or a wire, Lego, rubber band, pantyhose or Double Bubble, etc) to allow a firearm to fire automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. .......makes the firearm a machine gun.
Riomouse911
Member
Zero effect on gun purchases here in Ca for legal gun sales. Any sale here has to go through a FFL; even a gun show purchase has to go through the FFL, have a background check and suffer the ten day wait before you pick it up. The media here still parrots the talking points they are fed about Ol’ Uncle Joe “cracking down” on gun show loopholes, etc.
Obviously, it will have zero effect on illegal transactions, like every one of the thousands of other gun laws out there.
Stay safe.
Obviously, it will have zero effect on illegal transactions, like every one of the thousands of other gun laws out there.
Stay safe.
Correct, they are talking about private sales, which they would love to stop
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