why are the lee 350 legend dies steel instead of carbide?

Same reason there aren’t any 444 Marlin carbide dies. I’ve also not seen any 450 Bushmaster carbide dies which is a more appropriate comparison for your purposes.

I’m sure there is a reason I’m just not sure what it is.

greyling22 said:

350 legend is ostensibly a straight walled case (actually tapered like a 9mm and 30 carbine [boo]) Both Lee's 30 carbine and 9mm dies are carbide. Why are the 350 legend dies steel? Is there a good reason or is it a cost savings issue?

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I'm gonna bet it comes down to demand. A fairly new rifle cartridge with a limited application(states where straight walled cartridges, other than shotguns, only are legal for deer) that does not see the high amount of bullets sent downrange, just for ships and giggles, like 9mm and .30 carbine. When one only shoots a box or two downrange every year, and probably loads bottle neck cartridges where one has to lube already, non-carbide dies are not an issue. So if there is not enough demand to make it worth while for a manufacturer to produce a product, they ain't gonna.

greyling22 said:

*I think the 350 legend is doomed to failure since they went their own way instead of copying the 357ar max,

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Could and would you elaborate?

As to the dies, it’s easier to tool up and make steel dies, and as has been mentioned, there are several straightwall cartridges out there which haven’t had enough market volume to warrant carbide dies.

Lee doesn’t make carbide “rifle” dies.

Just handgun dies.

https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-carbide-or-steel-3-die-sets

FWIW a “carbide die” isn’t really a carbide die, rather a steel die with a carbide insert in it.

I agree, Lee dies not make Carbide rifle dies. The 30 Carbine dies are listed with carbide handgun dies on the Lee site

greyling22 said:

350 legend is ostensibly a straight walled case (actually tapered like a 9mm and 30 carbine [boo]) ..

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You answered. The Legend case tapers from .3792 to .3900. A carbide ring that resized the neck for proper bullet tension would squeeze the body of the case excessively. In theory, they could put the carbide ring higher in the die to only size the neck, but it wouldn't be adjustable for different length bullets and the steel body would still require lubrication which would negate the reason most people would be willing to pay more for the carbide.

I don't reload 9x19, but I suspect the carbide die undersizes the body and the expander die and taper crimp die "fix" the neck. The tapered section is so short. I imagine the long taper on 450 Bushmaster or 350 Legend is more of a challenge.

How does a .30 Carbine carbide die do it? How does it handle the tapered case?

greyling22 said:

Earthgoat, why aren't there carbide 444 dies?

walkalong, I get your point, but the carbide sizing ring doesn't seem to bother 9mm or 30 carbine, so I'm not sure that would be the reason.

jmorris, I get that they don't, I just wonder why not. I mean, it cannot be much more costly to make the carbide insert or else the handgun dies would cost a lot more than the rifle.

Varminterror, the 350 legend uses a proprietary case with a rebated rim. They also chose to use a .355 diameter bullet (9mm) which limits you to either speciallay designed bullets, or 9mm bullets constructed for handgun velocities. The cartridge is touted as a hunting round for straight wall only states, but the .355 diameter is too small to be legal in ohio, which requires a .357 or better diameter. And I'm out on any cartridge that is both new and proprietary. I refuse to have a novel caliber that has limited options for brass. Remember the short mags? have you tried to find brass for those? 41 magnum? nope.
The 357 ar max uses a 223 case as the parent, and uses a 357 diameter bullet. So it is hunting legal everywhere, you will never be orphaned as far as brass goes, and you have a much broader and better selection of bullets. You would have to give up just a little power, but you get a cartridge that is much friendlier to reloaders.

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The whole bullet diameter thing with 350 Legend is just stupid. Winchester needs to definitively state what the correct diameter is. At the NRA annual meeting a Winchester rep told me it was a 9mm cartridge even after I ask clarifying you mean .355 vs .357. But if you look at Winchester's website it says .357. Yet in the SAAMI spec 350 Legend, 9mm Luger and 357 Magnum all have the same nominal bore and groove diameter. Bore: .346, Grooves: .355. Now both 9mm Luger and 357 Magnum have +.004 tolerance on those dimension. The 350 Legend has only a +.002 on its nominal bore and groove.
Bullet diameters are list as:
9mm Luger: .3555
350 Legend: .3570
357 Magnum: .3580 (.3590 for lead)
All have a -.003 tolerance on the bullet diameter.

BUT if you look at minimal bore area in the SAAMI specs 350 Legend is the same as 9 Luger and both are smaller than 357 Mag.

Very few manufactures actual use SAAMI tolerances, they are almost always a tighter tolerance on their own internal prints/parts compared to SAAMI. Winchester needs to definitely settle this, especially for third parties that are trying to tool up for producing barrels/firearms or ammunition for this new cartridge. Us reloaders wouldn't mind either.

My personal opinion (yeah it ain't worth much) is that Winchester designed it as a 9mm (.355) cartridge and only near the release of the cartridge did they realized that it was going to run afoul of Ohio's and a few other state hunting regulation are attempting to ex post facto change it to be a .357 cartridge. Why yes I do look good in a tin-foil hat...

Finally I wrote an email to Ohio Division of Natural Resourse and was told that 350 Legend would be legal to hunt deer with in-spite of any .355 or .357 controversy.

-rambling

Certainly not an expert on the 350 Legend, but a logical thought; The carbide ring only uses a short "area" of the ring for sizing. And like the tapered 9mm cases, carbide sizing dies are designed for the largest part of a tapered case and only size a small portion of the case near the case head, might not even touch 90% of the case body. For a "perfect" sizing die for a tapered cast there would probably have to be three rings; one cut for the case diameter at the case head, one cut for the "mid body" diameter and one for the case mouth diameter, and the ID of the dies would probably need to be tapered so as to not leave a "step" in the case body...

Just thinking...

There are carbide dies for cartridges with more taper than the .350 L.

jmorris, I get that they don't, I just wonder why not. I mean, it cannot be much more costly to make the carbide insert or else the handgun dies would cost a lot more than the rifle.

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Dillon offers carbide rifle dies for a few calibers, a .223 carbide size die alone is over $170.

https://www.dillonprecision.com/dillon-carbide-rifle-dies-individual-three-die-sets_8_4_24498.html

Varminterror said:

There are carbide dies for cartridges with more taper than the .350 L.

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I think you're right. But I wonder how they work. I'm convinced they don't feature tapered carbide cylinders. So does the carbide ring resize the neck for bullet tension and smash the body down that far for the full length? Or does it just size the larger diameter and then steel is used to taper the neck? How would stuck cases be avoided?

Die companies would have to make carbide full length inserts to be able to resize full length tapered cases. The cost of those dies would be way over what anyone would buy.
9mm is really short compared to what a 350 Legend case would be.
Besides my RCBS resizing die apparently has a carbide sizing ring and something else above it because when I resize my 9mm cases with it there are two different surfaces on the case when I pull it back out of the die. The top 3/16" of the case has a really shiney look and the rest of the case is a different finish. That die is not a full length carbide insert. And look how short it is, .750".
The Legend case is 1.71" long. That's a long carbide insert and the price would be just as long. No one would buy it . Case lube is cheap. Now look at .444, 2.225" in length. That would cost even more. Those carbide full length inserts would cost more than the entire steel die set.

Has anyone asked Lee? They probably know the answer without speculating.
Just trying to be helpful.

greyling22 said:

yeah but everything Dillon makes is expensive

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To put it into perspective their regular .223 die is $46.30, the carbide one is $176.95.

$136.65 difference between the two.

And they are the same die except for the carbide insert.



FWIW, One of my Lee carbide 9mm dies has a .012” taper front to back, of the insert.

Why not email Lee & ask them?

If you do, and they answer, please post here.
Just my 2¢ worth.

Varminterror said:

There are carbide dies for cartridges with more taper than the .350 L.

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Don't leave us hanging! Which ones? Do the sizing dies use a carbide ring?

Walkalong said:

My Lee 9MM sizer does.

Yep.

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Lee uses a carbide ring, not a cylinder. A carbide sizing die that utilizes a carbide cylinder, like the ID of a steel sizing die can be made, but machining the long carbide insert for a sizing die would be very expensive and few would be sold. Redding makes a dual ring carbide sizing die that is a "fair" method of sizing to two different diameters. But with a cost of over $100.00 per die there are not all that popular...