Question on .380 Automatic

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Mr. Mosin

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For general reference; the handgun in question would be a Ruger LCP or equivalent. Buddy carries a Taurus knock-off of the LCP loaded with JFP's, a different buddy carries an LCP with Hornady's Critical Defense. I did a bit of research; and from what I can find (at least in something like the LCP) ammunition selection is absolutely critical. Would one be better off with a FMJ ball or a JFP than a premium hollow point that may or may not expand and perform as advertised ?
 
I suppose a person could argue that FMJ is superior to a non-expanding JHP because FMJ feeds more reliably. But it seems to me that what is better is to get JHPs that do expand (premium or not), by checking ammo reviews or asking around here. I suppose I am just stating the obvious, though.
 
In my LCP I carry either Critical Defense, or Ruger ARX. Both are accurate, function flawlessly, the ARX is barrier blind, if the Critical Defense fails to expand ( unlikely) it is like FMJ. Either are winners.
 
I can't remember the keywords to search on YouTube, but someone did a bunch of testing with a relatively short barreled .380acp. Testing as many types of ammo as he could get his hands on.

The results were pretty much that ammo using the Hornady XTP 90gr JHP were best. Something about that bullet just works.
 
I have one of those Taurus knock offs, and it likes the Hornady Critical Defense. As far as FMJ vs JHP vs JFP....I agree the first consideration is reliability. I had an LCP that didn't like Winchester fmj at all. Golden Sabers fed well, but wouldn't expand at all, so they were basically rather expensive FMJs.
I think the thing to remember with ammo selection, once reliability is sorted, is that everything is a trade off, there's no free lunch with physics. There's an upper limit on the amount of energy that can be injected into the system, so you can high mass/ low velocity or low mass/ high velocity...choose one. You can have expansion or penetration...choose one. When you get into higher energy cartridges you can get expansion and penetration, but with 380 you have to find the right balance. For me, the Critical Defense ticks the boxes best.
 
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Ammoquest by shootingthebull410 on YouTube has quite a few videos on 380 ammo in gel, he determined the XTP bullet worked well. I use ARX ammo in my LCP however, they did well in the reviews I have seen.
 
I don't carry my TCP out and about much, but it's loaded with a 95-grain JFP round.

My Bersa Thunder, which has a barrel almost a full inch longer than that on the Taurus, is loaded with a 95-grain JHP round from the same maker. Maybe that extra length will help with expansion without sacrificing too much in penetration.
 
I normally carry an LCR 38 special loaded with +P JHP.

When I do carry my LCPII, I use FMJ. I've had four of the micro 380's, and some were finicky about different kinds of ammo. Fiochi or S&B FMJ have worked well in all of them. I am fine with good penetration over iffy expansion.
 
I carry an LCP2 all the time in and out of the house. I used to do that with my 9mm handguns over the years, but I recently changed to 380 for several reasons which I will not go into to save space and time. I am a prudent person and make decisions based upon viewable evidence not opinions or conjecture. I have many free hours to do research and I used them on selecting a 380 ACP ammo.

It is well established that 380 JHP has unpredictable expansion in denim covered gel using FBI test specifications when decided from a short barrel like 3” or less, and that can be true even for longer barrels. It also generally exhibits poor penetration when it does expand because of the drag caused by the expansion. The main reason being that the round will not reach the velocity needed to develop the force required to cause the JHP to mushroom. It is also well established that 380 FMJ will not create a wound a desirable wound channel, and that it can over penetrate in some cases depending upon mass of the target.

I went looking for a solution of good penetration with good wound channel. I did not buy my 380 until I found the answer that satisfied me that 380 can be an effective SD round. I know that accuracy is the compensator for other ammo deficiencies, I fought with a hand gun in Nam and I know how hard it is to achieve the desired accuracy in a gun fight when the target is not paper, steel, etc, and when it shoots back at you. So while I think accuracy is a vital factor I know I wanted to have more advantage than that.

I read numerous testing reports and articles, and I looked for videos of 380 testing done by competent testers not by people who simply made meaningless tests. A meaningful test has to be a comparison. I found those tests on You Tube done by Military Arms Chanel, AP 2020 Outdoors, and Ammoquest. Ammoquest did extensive testing of many brands of 380 JHP over many months. It concluded that Precision One produced the best result with Federal HST second. Precious One was given first place and the test was closed. The many individual ammo tests are still on YT.

Then it reopened testing to try Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetrator ammo. It is a a monolithic copper bullet that relies on fluid transfer to create sound channel. It does not expand. It just uses fluid pressure to expand the wound channel. The ammo archived 13.5 to 16 inches of penetration consistently whether through gel or gel with denim. That met FBI specs. It also made sound channels that were twice the diameter of the HST, which failed to expand in some cases and failed to reach acceptable penetration in others.

But I needed more proof. That is when I searched for other tests of the same bullet in either Lehigh or Underwood ammo. Military Arms Channel and AP 2020 outdoors ran tests that confirmed the bullets effectiveness in 380. Some of those tests showed the bullet to be barrier blind achieving the same penetration. and wound channel through denim, simulated bone, wood, wallboard, auto glass, and sheet metal. Paul Harrel who generally does not like hyper ammo tested it an found it to be good.

As I type this I am wearing an OWB holster with my LCP2 with 7+1 holstered. My EDC is now the LCP with three 7 round magazines plus 1 in the tube. I feel secure with that.

The Ammoquest video I referred to above.

 
I have a Kel-Tec P3AT that I carry when I need something very small and light. I also have an older Llama IIIA baby 1911 in 380. I have no problem using either if ever needed. The 380 will do the job. I usually load them with Hornady Critical Defense ammo.
 
For general reference; the handgun in question would be a Ruger LCP or equivalent. Buddy carries a Taurus knock-off of the LCP loaded with JFP's, a different buddy carries an LCP with Hornady's Critical Defense. I did a bit of research; and from what I can find (at least in something like the LCP) ammunition selection is absolutely critical. Would one be better off with a FMJ ball or a JFP than a premium hollow point that may or may not expand and perform as advertised ?
I use Lehigh/Underwood Xreme DEFENDER....in my G42(380)..VERY good testing performance, particularly vs 9mm JHP out of a short barrel, which either doesn't expand well or gets clogged and acts a FMJ.

G9 ammo from BOTACH.com does the same thing... Untitled_-_2020-03-11T153930.706__00552.1583959180.jpg 65gr-380cal-xtreme-defender-lehigh-defense-sku-09380065S_1_of_1-500x500.jpg
That is when I searched for other tests of the same bullet in either Lehigh or Underwood ammo. Military Arms Channel and AP 2020 outdoors ran tests that confirmed the bullets effectiveness in 380. Some of those tests showed the bullet to be barrier blind achieving the same penetration. and wound channel through denim, simulated bone, wood, wallboard, auto glass, and sheet metal. Paul Harrel who generally does not like hyper ammo tested it an found it to be good.
 
I normally carry an LCR 38 special loaded with +P JHP.

When I do carry my LCPII, I use FMJ. I've had four of the micro 380's, and some were finicky about different kinds of ammo. Fiochi or S&B FMJ have worked well in all of them. I am fine with good penetration over iffy expansion.

I basically have an LCP in my pocket at all times. I like the Fiocchi FMJ as I believe it’s the best chance outside of expensive boutique ammo to see an honest 900+ FPS out of that little gun.

I also like the Hornady FTX load as far as hollowpoint bullets as I’m absolutely sure they would expand properly based on the testing I’ve done. The problem is that reliable expansion means the round is definitely going to penetrate shallowly compared to what is considered a good minimum.
 
For now I carry either Critical Defense or SIG V-Crown 90gr in my LCP. I've also carried Winchester 95 gr PDX1's. I tried Speer Gold Dot's, but my old LCP didn't like them and had several FTL's. Not sure about my new LCP. I know some believe that a fmj is more effective in a .380, I however do not share those believes.

The Lehigh and Underwood bullets have intrigued me. When I first saw them I wrote them off as being a gimmick, but it seems they are in fact effective. I may switch over to them next time I buy .380 defense ammo.
 

Thank you for posting this link.

When I had my Remington RM380, the only .380 I have ever owned, I tested most of the rounds in that Lucky Gunner spreadsheet for function and accuracy. I did not test them in gel blocks or media. Lucky Gunner did that for me. I also tested some Underwood ammo and a few others not on the list.

The most accurate SD ammo from my Remington RM380 was:
  • Hornady American Gunner XTP 90 grain
  • Remington Ultimate Defense 102 grain
All the ammo that expanded more than those two rounds or was more dramatic in its configuration, like that Underwood ammo all shot like crap for accuracy from my gun.

I don’t care if a round expands to twice the size of it’s diameter, if it’s not accurate it’s worthless to me.
 
I use Lehigh/Underwood Xreme DEFENDER....in my G42(380)..VERY good testing performance, particularly vs 9mm JHP out of a short barrel, which either doesn't expand well or gets clogged and acts a FMJ.

G9 ammo from BOTACH.com does the same thing... View attachment 916610 View attachment 916611
That is a rather unusual looking bullet right there... I wonder if some antigun DA in a highly antigun area could convince a jury in a self defense trial that this "Cop Killer" ammo that can go completely though front and back a vest wearing police officer...
 
That is a rather unusual looking bullet right there... I wonder if some antigun DA in a highly antigun area could convince a jury in a self defense trial that this "Cop Killer" ammo that can go completely though front and back a vest wearing police officer...

Oddly enough the Extreme Defender and Penetrator rounds are legal where Hollow points are not. A DA would have to prove the claim and. I have seen no evidence that it will pierce body armor through. So the the defendant’s lawyer would object the claim was merely conjecture mad to prejudice the defendant.
 
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