How vital is it to get defense ammo?

Yeah...only reason the US military uses FMJ is due to concerns about treaty conditions and the potential for being charged with war crimes. Well, that and cost.

As pointed out, the military is looking into issuing HP ammo, primarily for stateside use, security forces, and other cases where the enemy isn't state-sponsored uniformed military personnel.

I don't know why they bothered with ball ammo the whole time; the US Congress never ratified the Hague Accords anyway (necessary for our 'legal' inclusion in it) , and it's not like almost every other country we've fought since then. has stuck to either it or the Geneva Convention anyway.

Our endearing sense of fair play? Lol

In WWI, the Germans protested the French use of 'dum dums'. There was a series of propaganda medals produced during the war that protested that. http://karlgoetz.com/ImageDetail.aspx?idImage=72

[Edited by mod to remove off topic content]



A little more on expanding bullets. Shows they were in use as far back as the 1870s and I bet even earlier. But maybe not since earlier BP rounds were already of large diameter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet

Probably a good idea to carry a hollowpoint of some variety, from the standpoint of effectiveness and lack of overpenetration in the service calibers. I certainly would, and do.

That said...

FMJ will be a darn sight better than harsh words, in realistic self-defense scenarios. The odds you’ll have to draw a gun are very low. The odds that you’ll have to draw it in a crowd with a backstop of innocent women and children hostages are very low outside of Hollywood. Yes, FMJ will potentially “overpenetrate.” However, any bullet which misses its target (not unlikely) will do the same thing, effectively. There is no substitute for being able to hit your target and knowing what lies behind your target. There have been a lot of men killed with FMJ pistol bullets. There have also been a lot of cases where someone dumps a Glock mag-full into someone and fails to stop them. For that reason alone I’d strongly encourage anyone to carry a quality JHP.

When I moved to CO, I called the local PD and asked them what ammo they issued to LEOs. I was told that they used Federal Hydra-Shock (HSTs). I check every couple of years and they still buy and issue it. They now require all officers to carry either a Glock G22 or G19...I will acquire a G19 or G26. In 52 years of carrying a handgun, I have never drawn one and pray that I never will.

For my 9mms, I use Federal 124gr HSTs, for my .45s, I use 230gr Federal HSTs, and for my .40s, I use Federal HSTs with 180gr bullets. If this ammo is appropriate for protecting our LEOs and citizens, it's certainly good enough for me. I use cheaper FMJ practice ammo in those weights at the range.

I think if cost is a factor, you have to ask what your life is worth. YMMV, but I wonder if it should.

Harry

Prior to the Wuhan virus, you could get "LE Only" 50 round box of Federal HST's, or Speer Gold Dots for around $25-35 ( depending on caliber ) from multiple vendors. I know Hornady had previously cracked down on vendors selling "LE Only" ammo.
I simply fail to understand trying to save the equivalent of a latte or two, and not go with a round which is proven to meet the FBI criteria, and has a strong track record.

Well, my opinion is that good "self defense" ammunition is fine for going to the store but, my guns at home are loaded to deal with armored attackers. Even the rioters wear armor now days.

entropy said:

I don't know why they bothered with ball ammo the whole time; the US Congress never ratified the Hague Accords anyway (necessary for our 'legal' inclusion in it) , and it's not like almost every other country we've fought since then. has stuck to either it or the Geneva Convention anyway.

Click to expand...

I was always under the impression that the military used ball ammo mostly for feeding reliably in both semi-auto and automatic weapons.

DR505 said:

I was always under the impression that the military used ball ammo mostly for feeding reliably in both semi-auto and automatic weapons.

Click to expand...

and most likely cost.

I carry ball or cast ammo in my carry guns. Currently I do have WWB 230gr. HPs in my G36 however.

All early bullets were "expanding" bullets.
Nothing expands like pure lead... .

dickydalton said:

Well, my opinion is that good "self defense" ammunition is fine for going to the store but, my guns at home are loaded to deal with armored attackers. Even the rioters wear armor now days.

Click to expand...

What handgun ammunition are you using that defeats body armor?

If armored rioters are at my door, I’ll greet them with my long guns. My pistols stay loaded with hollow points.

I think it's important and prudent to get quality duty ammo if you can. My preference is for Federal HST. It has a good reputation and all of my guns like it (it's extremely accurate and functions reliably). Handguns are marginal to begin with so I want any edge I can get. In better/normal times SGAmmo sold boxes of 50 for $25-$30, and to make it worth shipping I would usually get four or five x 50 round boxes at a time. Generally that means I have between 300-500 rounds on hand at any given time. Yeah, this isn't my first rodeo, been through the shortages several times before.

That said, if I couldn't get my regular 147gr +p HST stuff I would carry 147gr FN-FMJ. On occasion I've bought the super cheap 115gr ball but the price difference between WWB 115 and the 147gr Federal American Eagle or 147gr Blazer really isn't that huge, and the practice-grade 147 hits reasonably close to my carry ammo. The theory with the FN-FMJ is that a flat meplat crushes and tears tissue instead of slipping through like RN. Is that myth or fact? I can't prove it either way but it seems to hammer small game pretty well. No one wants to get shot with anything and 9mm NATO ball has killed lots of folks over the years. I'd definitely prefer to load whatever I can find to not having anything at all. But as the say, PPPPPP, so I keep enough of the good stuff on hand to keep me going a while.

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We are going off the rails. Armored rioters and political movements will shut this thread down. We have gone over many of the same points. If you don't have any new insights, let this thread end.

I carry the same ammo I did before I retired from law enforcement. I figure if I get into a shooting as a civilian it would be pretty easy to explain my choice of defensive ammo if I have to go to court.

In terms of 9mm self defense ammo....

FMJ is better than no bullets
Good defensive hollow points are better than FMJ’s
Judicious marksmanship is critical in either