How vital is it to get defense ammo?

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So basically the question is are HPs worth wile. After literally thousands of tests and effective use by police agencies for decades, I think it would be insane not to carry a good HP bullet, unless you just can't afford them.

But personally, if I empty my VP9 at someone trying to kill me, and it's a dollar per shot, I kind of think my life is worth $15.

When you ignore the cost, and think in those terms, the choice is clear. If you think HPs are less effective than other bullet types, that's a different question. If you can't afford a good HP, then I wish you better financial fortune going forward. Seriously, I hope for better for anyone in that position.
 
Can anyone come up with an incident where someone who practices with generic ammo like WWB, came to ill in an encounter because their SD ammo was so different in ballistics that they missed the target or had ineffective hits.

Having shot loads of both, I find the conjecture with things like 9mm or 45 hard to believe, if you are skilled. I can understand moving between low power and high power revolver rounds. A wadcutter 38 and full power 357 is significant and you would be foolish to shoot the latter without experience with it.

The advantage of modern HP rounds is really not arguable anymore. But this is the Internet.
 
I'm more concerned with the round feeding reliably than any point of impact issues at what I feel will be self defense distances in my home: 7 yards or less.
 
I carry what our local LEO's use, and practice with reloads for the most part. I'm a believer in what Mas Ayoob has written over the years, to whit: don't CC with your personal reloads as the practice may hinder your defense following a defensive shoot. YMMv, Rod
 
Hollow points do more damage to the attacker. You are already hindered by the fact that you are fighting with a handgun, don't make it harder by using less effective ammunition.
 
This question could also be read as, "If I can't get premium defensive ammo, is it still worth carrying a gun if all I have is hardball?"

Emphatically, YES. If not having a gun is 0, and having the ultimate super-blaster is 100, hardball and hollow-points would be about 2 or 3 points different on that scale. Most handgun calibers would be 10 points difference, tops.

Larry
 
This question could also be read as, "If I can't get premium defensive ammo, is it still worth carrying a gun if all I have is hardball?"

Emphatically, YES. If not having a gun is 0, and having the ultimate super-blaster is 100, hardball and hollow-points would be about 2 or 3 points different on that scale. Most handgun calibers would be 10 points difference, tops.

Larry

Definitely. If I didn't have hollow points I'd be carrying ball ammo for sure. It still works. In fact I advocate carrying ball ammo in weaker cartridges like 380 and 32 to ensure adequate penetration.
 
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Definitely. If I didn't have hollow points I'd be carrying ball ammo for sure. It still works. In fact I advocate carrying ball ammo in weaker cartridges like 380 and 32 to ensure adequate penetration.
I actually carry Buffalo Bore solid copper hollow-points in my .380; hoping to get both some expansion and deep penetration. All the expansion in the world doesn't help if you don't reach something important.

Larry
 
feel free to post any information that says carrying ammo you don't regularly practice with makes you a better shot

I would argue that even say practicing with a .22 when you carry a .357 would make you a better shot.
(not to say that practicing with the .22 eliminates the need to practice with the .357)


I shoot USPSA matches, While I can't say shooting them would help in a SD encounter, I find it likely the practice would help.
I shoot 1000s of rounds of practice ammo, most of which is lighter than my carry ammo, but 1000s of rounds of practice with lighter ammo can't hurt.
(I do load some to SD ammo vels for practice but most is lighter, and I always buy a couple boxes of my SD ammo from the same lot and shoot one just to make sure my pistol likes it)
Aiming is the same, trigger is the same, POI vs POA is not that different, recoil is not that different.
I was burning up a couple of old boxes of factory ammo and for fun I loaded a couple in the middle of a mag for the last match on a few stages.
Never felt the difference in the middle of the stage between to two. (I did it just to see if I could feel the difference, heart rate up running, some Adrenaline in the blood stream, nope no difference )


Now on the range shooting static targets I can feel the difference in the ammo every time.

If you can hit with FMJ in practice, you should be able to hit with your carry ammo in practice, no bullet will work if you can't hit the target, practice helps you hit targets, more practice is a good thing.

I don't believe the Hype of Superduper Zombie Killer SD ammo but I feel good quality SD JHP ammo is worth the money.
 
As the saying goes, all's any of 'em shoot is bullets. The bullets do all of the killing, your gun is just there to carry them around and accelerate them in the right direction.

Other members have pointed out: hunting laws mandate expanding bullets and military agreements ban them because HPs are just that much more lethal than FMJ. If you have a choice, why wouldn't you load them? Dollar for dollar, there's nothing that will make your carry piece more effective than defensive bullets.

I can understand not shooting them up for high-volume range practice, but what does it take, an extra $10 to load a carry magazine with a 20rd box of Gold Dots vs WWB? I spent more than that on lunch at Carl's Jr today.
 
I carry Sig VCrown HP ammo for self defense so long as we are still living in a lawful society.

However, as someone else on this board said not so long ago when presented with the question "How much of your ammo is SD ammo?", they replied "All of it if need be."

I tend to follow that logic as I only keep a couple boxes of HP on hand but have thousands of ball in stock.
 
As the saying goes, all's any of 'em shoot is bullets. The bullets do all of the killing, your gun is just there to carry them around and accelerate them in the right direction.

Other members have pointed out: hunting laws mandate expanding bullets and military agreements ban them because HPs are just that much more lethal than FMJ. If you have a choice, why wouldn't you load them? Dollar for dollar, there's nothing that will make your carry piece more effective than defensive bullets.

I can understand not shooting them up for high-volume range practice, but what does it take, an extra $10 to load a carry magazine with a 20rd box of Gold Dots vs WWB? I spent more than that on lunch at Carl's Jr today.

Your mindset matches mine. ''Sure, a quality JHP is a little more expensive, but I'm worth it.'' ;)
 
I this hydroshok dollar a round stuff. Is this all just marketing to sell me a more expensive bullet or am I actually getting something worthwhile for buying some ultra expensive round

Pretty much asked and answered. Of course I try to use the least expensive ball ammo I can find for range fun-ness. I buy about 50R of 'defensive' ammo for carry..every once in a while, I go shoot some of it to make sure it's loading and firing OK in my EDC guns but 'maybe' an extra $40 per year or so.

Just bought a Glock 48..checked that the G9 stuff worked ok(it did)...15 rounds or so. When I get the 15R magazine for it(Shield Arms back ordered), I'll make sure it works again..with the carry stuff. Fun to watch what those do to a watermelon or pumpkin...;)
 
I do apologize if I'm re-hashing previous points, as i reached the TL;DR point about the end of page 2, but wanted to drop my .02...

1. All common pistol rounds suck for stopping a fight. None of them consistently exceed the "rule of thumb" 1800fps that is (or was, if I'm out of date) considered to be the bare minimum to cause "hydraulic shock," defined as the energy transfer being enough to cause shearing damage to tissue beyond the permanent wound cavity, as most rifle bullets will do. That said, pistols are easier to carry, easier to conceal, and are therefore much more likely to be available to you if you have to face an assailant as a civilian, and they're definitely better than being unarmed, or armed with only a knife or similar non-ranged weapon.

2. Since pistol bullets don't induce hydraulic shock, that means they only damage tissue that they actually pass through, i.e. the permanent wound cavity. Expanding bullets make the frontal area of the bullet larger, which means incrementally increasing the odds of hitting something vital as it passes through tissue. Good expanding bullets increase the diameter of the projectile by 50-100%. They also slow the bullet down more as they pass through the body, meaning any round that exits is less likely to strike someone other than the target with potentially lethal energy.

3. The bullet has to be able to consistently penetrate to hit vital organs if it is to have a chance of stopping an assailant. It may have to pass through an outstreched arm, or through the body at an oblique angle. The FBI studied a LOT of actual gunfights involving both police and civilians, and came to the conclusion that ideally, a round should penetrate 12-18" in calibrated 10% ballistics gelatin to ensure adequate penetration.

4. Train to be able to score consistent hits to the center of mass rapidly and repeatedly. Accurate is better than fast, but with practice, speed will come on it's own. Remember the old saying, "you can't miss fast enough to win." Practice until you can draw and fire consistently into a 4-6" circle between 7-10yds as a minimum, IMO. Also remember, your marksmanship will likely deteriorate by half or more under adrenaline and fear for your life. Your sight picture and trigger pull should be instinctive, because you likely won't have time to think about them if you need them. Don't just practice double taps, either. Practice firing from singles to whole mags. If your life is ever on the line, you will need to fire until the threat stops.


The link to the Luckygunner test series is really handy for finding ammo. Their test is consistent across all calibers and rounds, and while their gel isn't EXACTLY the same as the FBI's organic 10% gel standard, it is similar enough to give a good, consistent comparison across the board. I recommend trying to find a round that expands as big as possible while still falling within that 12-18" average penetration range. Pick a couple options, hit the stores or the internet and try to getsamples of each. Test fire them to see which gets closest to your point of aim while feeding reliably. Different weights and loads may produce vastly different groups and point of impact. For example, my wife's Sig .40 shoots 3-4" low at 10yds with most 165's but to point of aim with 180's.

And some examples from me:
Winchester .45 ACP 230 Ranger-T +P
1103201316_HDR.jpg
Remington Golden Saber 185 +P
1103201334_HDR.jpg

Same gun, same day, 10rds at 10yds. Obviously the Winchester is the better choice for my particular application.
 
I agree with everything in the above post...

BUT:
  • I think it likely that before one were able to fire, an attacker will likely be much closer than 10 yards away--more like 10 feet
  • I would define "rapidly"--maybe 5 shots in a second and a half, as a goal
Good post!
 
I agree with everything in the above post...

BUT:
  • I think it likely that before one were able to fire, an attacker will likely be much closer than 10 yards away--more like 10 feet
  • I would define "rapidly"--maybe 5 shots in a second and a half, as a goal
Good post!

Valid points, but the reason i put the distance goals a little further out and don't define the "rapid" part, come down to the inherent increase in speed and reduction of accuracy that tends to result from a "for real" scenario. Stress will make you fire faster and less accurately if the adrenaline is really pumping, so IMO, the emphasis in training should be on developing your muscle memory to be more accurate than you need to be, at longer ranges than are common in the real world.
Too much emphasis on speed reduces precision. There's an old mantra i learned from road racing that also seems to bear out in practical shooting: "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, so slow is fast," also stated as "Slow hands make fast times." It basically means, don't concentrate too hard on going FAST, concentrate on making control inputs precise and efficient. In racing, that means clean lines and avoiding abrupt inputs that FEEL fast, but unsettle the chassis. In shooting, it means concentrating on drawing smoothly, aligning the sights before pressing the trigger, and making sure you get your sight picture back before your follow-up shots. As the muscle memory develops, the speed will come on it's own.
 
"hydraulic shock," defined as the energy transfer being enough to cause shearing damage to tissue beyond the permanent wound cavity,

That's hydrostatic shock.

hydraulic shock

Bullets moving at less than 1800 feet can create a mitigated temporary cavity that might indeed be better described as 'hydraulic' shock. Indeed, the best pistol bullet designs rely on this, hence the name of Federal's premier SD/Duty round of days past, the "Hydrashock". Still a good bullet, I have some 230 Hyrdashocks in my CCW mags for both my .45's.

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, so slow is fast,"

I learned two thirds of your saying from training received from the SF community; it means learn it slow first, then gradually increase speed without decreasing accuracy and smoothness; if accuracy drops off or you start getting jerky, back off until you've recovered it. The last part was implied, never heard it spoken.

Not everybody has the time or ammo to train the way you did. I learned what and the way you did with Uncle Sugar footing a lot of the ammo bill. Maynard Q. Paycheck would be better served at first with a 'down and dirty' quick training course of 3 and 7 yards, no more than 1 second before the first shot, first follow up no more than .25 seconds, with splits after that no more than .5 sec. Won't win a 3 gun match, but it's enough to keep one alive.
 
That's hydrostatic shock

Correct. I concede your technicality. Though most folks won't recognize the distinction.

Still, the point is, pistols are a severe compromise, ballistically speaking, and so every advantage one can gain from better bullet design is generally worth it.

Shot placement trumps all the other factors, though.
 
Well, the effect isn't dependent on flow, it's a propagating wave in a static hydraulic system, namely the water inside the cells of tissue.

Technically, from an engineering standpoint, hydraulic shock refers to the phenomenon commonly referred to as "water hammer," where abrupt changes in flow rate induce the pressure wave that causes potential damage.

So, yeah, pedantically speaking, it's hydrostatic, but realistically, to the lay person the terms are interchangable and anyone who is a firearms enthusiast will understand the point being made with either term.
 
I wonder if the firearms community will ever get this hydrostatic vs hydraulic business nailed down.

Hydraulic means fluid movement. So when tissue is fluidized under pressure and displaced with enough force into other adjacent tissue, the shock of this displacement causes damaged. Like water from a water jet table cuts through metal (or anything else in its way).

Hydrostatic, means fluid at rest. When a wave pulses through that fluid (just as a sound waves travels through the air), the fluid doesn't flow anywhere. With a strong enough pulse, tissue and organ cells can be damage by the shock of this wave. Hence Hydrostatic Shock.

But hey, I'm not a scientist.
 
Probably more accurate to say train with something that closely matches the performance of what you carry.
I found that 9mm American Eagle ball shoots to the exact POA as Federal Hydrashoks. I had bought 600 rounds of them. Now I don't have to spend the exorbitant fees of premium ammo just for practice. At least on 9mm. Pity I can't find the same thing for .45ACP.
 
Definitely. If I didn't have hollow points I'd be carrying ball ammo for sure. It still works. In fact I advocate carrying ball ammo in weaker cartridges like 380 and 32 to ensure adequate penetration.

Agreed, ball ammo is good enough for the US Army.
 
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