45 Colt - newbie question

Ru4real said:

A couple of points.

1. Virtually everyone is a random stranger on the internet. Even on THR there are not that many people that actually met / spent time with / know each other.

2. This is the 25th post in this thread, total. And there has not been one factual post yet. This thread is still a popular opinion poll, like the vast majority of posts on the interweb. “Fill line” happens to be the least popular opinion currently, but like your post, it is an opinion, none the less.

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3Crows said:

Is it possible that cannelures are simply decoration, an aesthetic addition?

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Cowhide Cliff said:

Are you guys serious or just making jokes?

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3Crows said:

No, I am not, as an engineer, often they add to product designs features that are purely aesthetic, then as often the accountants remove them today. But many products contain useless features that are purely art, like tail fins on a Cadillac or maybe cannelures on some cartridge casings, this after seeing the photos in this thread of random cannelures and my having noticed the same. I have seen a lot of conjecture, I do not see why my thought that they are decorative is any different. Sometimes features are evolutionary hold overs, having served some purpose at one time but no longer needed but yet still remain, I guess so people can have long threads over why something is what it is. Maybe they are just pretty.

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Cowhide Cliff said:

I guess it's possible it is put on strictly for aesthetic reasons but I have a hard time believing. It's pretty much common knowledge it was first started in thin wall cases early on with smokeless powder in order to keep the bullet from pushing into the case. Some still today in the thinner cases like 44-40 have a deep cannelure about the base of the bullet. Maybe since it's become an identifier or has something to do with how the case is gripped or supported during bullet seating in the factory but I don't think it pure decoration.

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Driftwood Johnson said:

Howdy Again

None of the current brass manufacturers are putting cannelures on 44-40 brass anymore. I have loaded 44-40 brass made by Starline, Winchester, Remington, and a few others. I have loaded hundreds, maybe a couple of thousand rounds of 44-40 using Starline and Winchester 44-40 brass. No one is putting cannelures on 44-40 or 38-40 brass any more.

The 38-40 round in the center of this photo is an old Remington-UMC round. I don't know how old it is, but it is pretty old. The 38-40 round on the right is a United States Cartridge Company round. USCCo has been out of business since shortly after WWII. This round is probably considerably older than that because it has one of the old small primers that have not been used on large caliber ammunition for many years. Those cannelures are deep enough that they could possibly prevent a bullet from setting back in the cartridge in the tubular magazine of a rifle, but like I say, no modern manufacturs of brass that I am aware of are putting cannelures on 44-40 or 38-40 brass any more. I have been loading those cartridges for about 20 years now.

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Hang on, I was just scrounging around in the basement. This is the first box of 44-40 ammo I ever bought. I bought it at the same time I bought my first 44-40 rifle, an antique Marlin Model 1894. Back around 1975 or so. There are only two rounds left in the box, I have been hanging on to them for sentimental reasons.

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Oh my goodness, look at that. There are cannelures on the brass. Let's get serious now. Those cannelures are just tiny dimples probably no deeper than the cannelures I showed on some 38 Special ammo a few posts ago. I'm not going to pull the bullets on this relatively old ammo, but I can gaurantee you that those skimpy little cannelures do not extend deep enough into the inside of the brass to prevent a bullet from setting back in the tubular magazine of a rifle. As a matter of fact, I don't recall any such problem with these rounds when I fired them over 40 years ago.

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I just scrolled through a bunch of modern manufacturer's photos of their 44-40 ammo. Black Hills, Mag-Tech, Winchester, Buffalo-Bore, Hornady, and the only one I have found that is putting a cannelure on their 44-40 ammo today is Mag-Tech.



Here is a batch of 44-40 ammo being loaded into brand-spanky new Starline cases on my Hornady Progressive press. Not a cannelure to be found anywhere.

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Once my Black Powder ammo has been fired once the cases get stained and they never get shiny again. Here is a batch of 200 rounds of my Black Powder 44-40 rounds that have been loaded a few times. Like I said, Starline does not put a cannelure on their 44-40 or 38-40 brass. I have not loaded any Winchester 44-40 brass in a few years, but back when I was, there were no cannelures on their 44-40 brass either.

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OK, I have said this until I am blue in the face. Cannelures on modern brass, particularly the skimpy cannelures on the 38 Special ammo I posted earlier, or the Remington High Velocity 44-40 ammo I posted in this thread, will do absolutely nothing to prevent a bullet from telescoping back into the case in the tubular magazine of a lever rifle, when the magazine follower slams the whole column back violently as each round gets stripped out of the magazine. Yes, all the 44-40 and 38-40 ammo I have been loading for years now is loaded with Black Powder. There is a 'solid plug' of powder preventing the bullet from telescoping backwards in the case in the magazine. Yes, the relatively weak crimp that the thin brass of 44-40 forms on a bullet will not hold it securely from setting back in the tubular magazine of a rifle. I don't know if I have said it here or not, but I make up dummy 44-40 rounds all the time, to run through my rifles. Rounds that have no powder and no primer, just a crimped bullet. Yes, after running through the action of a rifle a few times, many of the bullets set back in the case. Never the first time, which would simulate the action of a 44-40 loaded with Smokeless running through the action before being fired. Usually it takes 2 or 3 times through the action before telescoping happens with my dummy rounds. Back many years ago when I was loading 44-40 with Smokeless, with the exact same dies and set up I am using today, I never had bullets setting back the first time through the action. Only after dummies run through a couple of times do the bullets set back.

But I am going to say this one more time. Nobody (other than Mag-Tech) is putting cannelures on their 44-40 brass any more, and the skimpy cannelures they are putting on would have absolutely no effect preventing a bullet from telescoping back into the case.

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Cowhide Cliff said:

Wrong! CBC brass still has the cannelure. All of the Magtec 44-40 ammo still has it or at least it did as recent as a few months ago.

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Driftwood Johnson said:

If you read my previous post carefully you will see that I mentioned twice that Mag-Tech is putting a cannelure on their 44-40 brass. I have not personally reloaded any, but I'll bet it will not prevent a bullet from telescoping back into the case in the tubular magazine of a lever action rifle.

Tell you what. If I am ever able to find some Mag Tech 44-40 ammo after the panic buying of ammo is over I will try some out and report back.

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Cowhide Cliff said:

On a reload it probably wont without recrimping the cannelure after or during reloading. I always assumed it was done with a collet type crimp die after the bullet was seated but dunno

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Cowhide Cliff said:

No I didn't, I just read the first paragraph where you said twice that no one is doing it.

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Cowhide Cliff said:

There were several factual post. Plain and simple it is a crimp to keep the bullet from pushing into the case. If you've ever had that happen in a tube magazine rifle and have it lock up then you might believe them.

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Driftwood Johnson said:

No one has posted anything factual yet?

My experience with 44-40 bullets telescoping back into the case in a rifle with a tubular magazine is not factual?

My photos of cannelures on old 38-40 ammunition is not factual?

Here are a couple of more non-factual photos.





Wrong.

This is a photo of a round of modern manufactured Federal American Eagle 38 Special, 158 grain Lead Round Nosed ammo. Actually it is a photo of two rounds. I pulled the bullet from one round and placed it alongside the bullet with the empty shell. Notice the position of the cannelure. Notice how much space there is between the bottom of the bullet and the cannelure. A quick measurement shows there is approximately .100 or so between the bottom of the bullet and the cannelure. So much for cannelures preventing a bullet from being seated too deep in a cartridge. The cannelure is nowhere near the base of the bullet. Peeking down inside that 38 Sp. case, that cannelure barely makes any impression on the inside of the case at all, it most certainly would not prevent a bullet from being shoved past it by any sort of bullet seating equipment.


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Another non-factual photo. Various cannelures on old ammunition. The first two rounds were in an earlier photo I posted on this thread. A 38-40 round made by the United States Cartridge Company and another 38-40 made by Remington-UMC. Next is a 44-40 round made by Winchester Repeating Arms Company. (By the way, yes the headstamp is 44-40, not 44WCF for those who think Winchester never used that name.) Next is a 45 Colt made by Winchester Repeating Arms, and finally an unusual 45 Colt made by Frankford Arsenal. This is one of the rounds with an extra wide rim for the 45 caliber Colt double action revolvers.

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No, I am not going to pull any of these bullets, they are part of my cartridge collection. Are these cannelures deep enough to prevent a bullet from telescoping back into the case? Hard to know without pulling the bullets and measuring where the base of the bullets sit compared to the cannelures. I suspect that really deep cannelure on the 38-40 all the way on the left may be just for that purpose. It is really deep. The two 45s on the right? Those cannelures are not very deep. I suspect even if they are positioned at the bottom of the bullets, they are not deep enough to prevent a bullet from being pushed past them.

The leverage available on modern reloading presses or commercial loading equipment provides a great deal of force when seating a bullet. No matter how deep the cannelure is in a soft brass cartridge case, I submit that it would be useless in preventing a bullet from being shoved past it. I don't know about anybody else, but when I reload my ammunition, I set my dies very carefully. The setting of the dies is what governs how deep the bullet seats, nothing else. Certainly not a cannelure in the case.

I suspect the great majority of cannelures on modern ammunition are just there, as my good friend Bob Wright says, merely for quick identification of the ammunition. I don't buy a whole lot of commercial ammo these days, I had to scrounge around on my shelves to find some ammo with the modern 'really light' cannelures such as on that Federal 38 Special ammo. But I submit these shallow cannelures on modern ammo have nothing to do with preventing bullets from being seated too deep.

P.S. and they have nothing to do with how much Black Powder to dump into a cartridge. Oops, I have only been loading Black Powder in cartridges for 20 years, I guess that is another non-fact and I don't know what I'm talking about.

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Driftwood Johnson said:

Adding a ring like that around the case added a step to the manufacturing process, which would make the brass sightly more expensive.

It has nothing to do with fill lines, or keeping a bullet from seating too deep.

It would not have anything to do with quality of the brass either.

As has been mentioned several times, it was simply to identify different rounds at a glance.

Unlike most of my brass that I buy new from Starline these days, I have never bought any 38 Special brass.

Every round of 38 Special I have loaded has been with brass that I started saving some time back in the 1970s, because I know someday I would reload it.

Anyway, I just rummaged through my big bucket of old 38 Special brass, and look what I found.

Brass with cannelures in all different places. A variety of headstamps; Federal, Winchester Western, Winchester, and Remington Peters.

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Then I grabbed one of my boxes of 38 Special reloads, all using that old 38 Special brass. My goodness, look at that. Cannelures all over the place, with no relationship whatsoever to where the bottom of the bullets sit. You are going to have to trust me on that, I did not take a photo with one of my bullets alongside the loaded ammo.

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That's it folks. Cannelures all over the place, no relationship whatsoever to the bottom of bullets, not deep enough to prevent a bullet from being seated past them anyway. And certainly no relationship to the level of the top of a charge of Black Powder. (yes, originally 38 Special was loaded with Black Powder, that is why the case is so big and is so empty when loaded with Smokeless. I have never loaded 38 Special with Black Powder, if I was going to I would load it just like any other cartridge, just enough so that when the bullet was seated it compressed the powder by about 1/16")

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Driftwood Johnson said:

No one has posted anything factual yet?

My experience with 44-40 bullets telescoping back into the case in a rifle with a tubular magazine is not factual?

My photos of cannelures on old 38-40 ammunition is not factual?

Here are a couple of more non-factual photos.





Wrong.

This is a photo of a round of modern manufactured Federal American Eagle 38 Special, 158 grain Lead Round Nosed ammo. Actually it is a photo of two rounds. I pulled the bullet from one round and placed it alongside the bullet with the empty shell. Notice the position of the cannelure. Notice how much space there is between the bottom of the bullet and the cannelure. A quick measurement shows there is approximately .100 or so between the bottom of the bullet and the cannelure. So much for cannelures preventing a bullet from being seated too deep in a cartridge. The cannelure is nowhere near the base of the bullet. Peeking down inside that 38 Sp. case, that cannelure barely makes any impression on the inside of the case at all, it most certainly would not prevent a bullet from being shoved past it by any sort of bullet seating equipment.


View attachment 971291




Another non-factual photo. Various cannelures on old ammunition. The first two rounds were in an earlier photo I posted on this thread. A 38-40 round made by the United States Cartridge Company and another 38-40 made by Remington-UMC. Next is a 44-40 round made by Winchester Repeating Arms Company. (By the way, yes the headstamp is 44-40, not 44WCF for those who think Winchester never used that name.) Next is a 45 Colt made by Winchester Repeating Arms, and finally an unusual 45 Colt made by Frankford Arsenal. This is one of the rounds with an extra wide rim for the 45 caliber Colt double action revolvers.

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No, I am not going to pull any of these bullets, they are part of my cartridge collection. Are these cannelures deep enough to prevent a bullet from telescoping back into the case? Hard to know without pulling the bullets and measuring where the base of the bullets sit compared to the cannelures. I suspect that really deep cannelure on the 38-40 all the way on the left may be just for that purpose. It is really deep. The two 45s on the right? Those cannelures are not very deep. I suspect even if they are positioned at the bottom of the bullets, they are not deep enough to prevent a bullet from being pushed past them.

The leverage available on modern reloading presses or commercial loading equipment provides a great deal of force when seating a bullet. No matter how deep the cannelure is in a soft brass cartridge case, I submit that it would be useless in preventing a bullet from being shoved past it. I don't know about anybody else, but when I reload my ammunition, I set my dies very carefully. The setting of the dies is what governs how deep the bullet seats, nothing else. Certainly not a cannelure in the case.

I suspect the great majority of cannelures on modern ammunition are just there, as my good friend Bob Wright says, merely for quick identification of the ammunition. I don't buy a whole lot of commercial ammo these days, I had to scrounge around on my shelves to find some ammo with the modern 'really light' cannelures such as on that Federal 38 Special ammo. But I submit these shallow cannelures on modern ammo have nothing to do with preventing bullets from being seated too deep.

P.S. and they have nothing to do with how much Black Powder to dump into a cartridge. Oops, I have only been loading Black Powder in cartridges for 20 years, I guess that is another non-fact and I don't know what I'm talking about.

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NeroM said:

IMHO- splitting hairs about a name for the historic cartridge we now call 45 Colt is an adolescent activity.
It is my understanding, the cartridge for "Colt's revolver, 45 cal" - could in the latter 1800s be confused with S&W 45 and Schofield 45. Both of latter have a shorter case and may or may not fit into a Colt's revolver- depending upon the exact year of make. Ultimately the US Govt produced 45 Schofield that would work in a Colt's 45- shorter case however. So now there were (and still are) two cartridges that fit into Colt's 45 revolver.
Not really any different from today's 38Spl/357 or 44Spl/44 mag. So, the 45 Long Colt term slipped into common use to distinguish between 45 Colt (longer case) and 45 Schofield (shorter case).
45 Colt is still the official designation.
Call it 45 Long Colt if that makes you feel better or more nostalgic!

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Driftwood Johnson said:

That is incorrect.

The pressure gauge for the air brakes is in the locomotive cab. The compressor is mounted to the locomotive, so that is where the pressure gauge is.....

..... These days there is no longer a fireman in the cab of a diesel locomotive, usually the occupants of the locomotive are only the engineer and the conductor. Maybe a brakeman too. And by the way, the conductor is the boss of the train. The engineer is just a driver.

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Strainer said:

but looking at that photo, the pulled 38 Spl Federal 158gr LRN bullet looks just like the Hornady Frontier Lead 38 Cal .358” LRN item#10508. Just an observation. Maybe Federal sources their 158 gr LRN bullets from Hornady for their 38 Spl ammunition in that bullet weight/type.

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Hal said:

One day - things like a caboose, a dial telephone, tube radios & TVs will be like that I reckon....

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halfmoonclip said:

Nope, there is (and was) air pressure at the rear of the train to check as well. The line pressure was subject to traveling the length of the train, potentially thru' bad connections or bent lines. In theory, it should balance out, but there are too many variables. A decrease in line pressure could apply the brakes on the rear of the train. The current gizmo (the "FRED", the 'flashing rear end device'), reports line pressure to the cab crew via radio. Concur that the caboose was an office, bunkroom and observation point. It was also a rough place to ride, when the slack action came in or out. There was a reason for all the grab handles.

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Jim Watson said:

There have been rifle bullets with identifying cannelures, a fine line in addition to the knurled crimp groove. Something like .30 150 gr, no cannelure, .30 180 gr, cannelure.

I take my lead on .45 nomenclature from Elmer Keith:
"The old .45 Smith and Wesson cartridge with its short case has long been obsolete and also the short Remington cartridge for the .45 Colt. Today (1955) we often hear the .45 Colt Peacemaker cartridge referred to as the .45 Long Colt. Some newcomers to the game claim that there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during, and after WW I, they would say there is some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long."

Here is an article with one illustrated, albeit of WRA make.
https://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

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