Driftwood Johnson
Member
Here is how brass is turned into finished brass.
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halfmoonclip
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- Feb 4, 2011
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First, the caboose was for watching the train (from the little cupola thing on top), and to monitor train air pressure (air controls the brakes).
Now that is out of the way, how old is the brass we're discussing, with the various cannelures?
Moon
Now that is out of the way, how old is the brass we're discussing, with the various cannelures?
Moon
ontarget
Member
Very cool Driftwood. Thanks.
I removed all of my initial post.
I reread it & it sounded snotty..
That wasn't my intention.
The folks over at IAA have concluded that the cannelure was put on smokeless revolver cartridges - when there were also black powder cartridges available in the same round, so people could tell them apart.
They have a lot of evidence to support that idea & I tend to agree that it makes sense.
Anyhow - if anyone has an issue with that, I suggest joining their forum & taking it up with them.
I myself don't have any explanation for modern revolver brass that has a cannelure. It seems pointless to me.
Anyhow - fun topic.
I did manage to learn that the .45 Long Colt was called the .45 Colt's for a long, long, long time - in both black powder & smokless.
I reread it & it sounded snotty..
That wasn't my intention.
The folks over at IAA have concluded that the cannelure was put on smokeless revolver cartridges - when there were also black powder cartridges available in the same round, so people could tell them apart.
They have a lot of evidence to support that idea & I tend to agree that it makes sense.
Anyhow - if anyone has an issue with that, I suggest joining their forum & taking it up with them.
I myself don't have any explanation for modern revolver brass that has a cannelure. It seems pointless to me.
Anyhow - fun topic.
I did manage to learn that the .45 Long Colt was called the .45 Colt's for a long, long, long time - in both black powder & smokless.
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BobWright
Member
The folks over at IAA have concluded that the cannelure was put on smokeless revolver cartridges - when there were also black powder cartridges available in the same round, so people could tell them apart.
That doesn't hold water .........The differentiation at the time was in the primers: Copper primers denoted black powder, brass primers denoted semi-smokeless powder, and nickel primers denoted smokeless powder.
Bob Wright
That doesn't hold water .........The differentiation at the time was in the primers: Copper primers denoted black powder, brass primers denoted semi-smokeless powder, and nickel primers denoted smokeless powder.
Bob Wright
Let me/us know how they respond to that over on the IAA forum. Like I said above - I have neither the resources nor the inclination to support their conclusion..
Driftwood Johnson
Member
That is incorrect.
The pressure gauge for the air brakes is in the locomotive cab. The compressor is mounted to the locomotive, so that is where the pressure gauge is.
Yes, trains have had air brakes for over 100 years since George Westinghouse invented the modern railroad air brake system in 1869. Prior to that time, the only way to stop a train was for the brakemen to climb to the top of the cars and manually turn the brake wheels on top of every car to apply the brakes on the cars. They had to run along the tops of the cars and jump from one car to the next in order to turn all the brake wheels. One of the most dangerous jobs in the world at the time. Early air brakes used pressure in the continuous air line that ran from the locomotive to the caboose to apply the brakes on the train. The problem with that system was if a coupler failed, and the train broke in half, all the pressure would run out of the air line and the train would have no brakes. Westinghouse's system has an air pressure reservoir mounted under the frame of every car. Normally, air pressure in the train brake line keeps the brakes of every car off, so the train can roll. If a coupler fails, and the train parts, the loss of air pressure in the line releases the air in each reservoir to apply the brakes on each car.
The purpose of the caboose was to serve as an office for the conductor. Yes, freight trains had/still have conductors. The conductor on a freight train keeps track of all the paperwork for all the cars on the train. There is a lot of paperwork, bills of lading for everything in each car, where it originated and where it is going. Cabooses often had bunks and a cook stove inside for long distance trains. Yes, the cupola of a caboose was so the rest of the train crew, mostly one or two brakemen, could keep watch on the train. In the old days, the bearings for railroad car wheels were packed with rags and grease. Sometimes the rags or grease would dry out and overheat, and cause a fire. This was known as a hot box. If the fire in the bearing went undetected, the axle could turn red hot and eventually fail, causing a derailment. The brakemen in the cupola were watching the train for signs of smoke, that would signal a hot box. Some railroads had cabooses with bay windows on the side instead of a cupola to watch the train. I remember once my Dad's commuter train was late getting him home from New York City. The train had to stop because of a hot box. Today, all railroad cars have roller bearings and hot boxes are pretty much a thing of the past. Federal laws required cabooses on the end of freight trains until the 1980s. At that time the laws were relaxed because End of Train Devices and track side Defect Detectors became common. The railroads were only too happy to abandon their cabooses, they were expensive to maintain. These days there is no longer a fireman in the cab of a diesel locomotive, usually the occupants of the locomotive are only the engineer and the conductor. Maybe a brakeman too. And by the way, the conductor is the boss of the train. The engineer is just a driver.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
It has always been 45 Colt. For a time, when the 45 Schofield round was being used by the Army, sometimes 45 Colt was referred to as 45 Long Colt, because it was longer than the Schofield round. But the official name has always simply been 45 Colt.
Yes, some ammunition companies today will print 45 Long Colt on the box, but that is not the official name of the cartridge.
I have not bought any 45 Colt ammunition in a long time. Been loading my own for a long time. I do recall on occasion when I went into a gun store and asked for a box of 45 Colt, the clerk would sometimes ask me if I meant 45 Long Colt. He knew nothing about the history of the 45 Colt or 45 Schofield cartridges, he just wanted to make sure I did not want those stubby, little 45 ACP cartridges.
Nope - price lists and catalogs from before the 1920's say otherwise.
Don't believe me?
Look them up over at IAA.
https://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs
It's Colt's - not Colt - not until into the 1920s does it change to Colt.
They drop the "apostrophe S".
Hmm- curious - the Peter's catalogs also list primers - and all of them, smokeless or black powder, are all copper.
Can you offer support for your claim?
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Driftwood Johnson
Member
deadeye dick
Member
Driftwood,
Fireman were on all trains ( don't quote me ) till the 80's because of the unions. Firemen were on the train to stoke the boilers on the steam loco's
Fireman were on all trains ( don't quote me ) till the 80's because of the unions. Firemen were on the train to stoke the boilers on the steam loco's
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Vern Humphrey
Member
Railways and Union Settle 35‐Year. Fireman Dispute - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
WASHINGTON, July 20, 1972 —The nation's railroads and the United Transportation Union announced jointly today an agreement that will eventually eliminate the job of fireman on diesel freight, locomotives.
The agreement brings to an end what is believed to be the longest labor‐management dispute in. American history.
The new contract, while establishing rules requiring the railroads to maintain firemen on train crews and to rehire firemen laid off by previous Government rulings, permits a long‐term attrition in the number of firemen employed by the railroads.
Today's agreement covers only firemen on freight trains. Management has never challenged union contentions that firemen should be kept on passenger trains for the sake of passenger safety. However, railroad officials hinted today that they would seek to eliminate firemen on passenger trains at some future time.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
I cannot quote the date, but you are correct, firemen were still in the cabs of diesel locomotives during much of the early diesel years. There was a union rule that any locomotive that weighed at least 45 tons had to have a fireman in the cab. The railroad unions were very strong in those days. The unions stated that 2 men were required in the cab for safety purposes. General Electric built a 44 ton switching locomotive to get around that rule. They were known as the GE 44 Tonners.
Here is a photo of an HO scale GE 44 Tonner on my HO layout. Yes, I am a train nerd.
No - no - and no - from 1873 through 1919 - 46 years - that's a long time - the price lists and ammunition catalogs call it Colt's.
Don't take my word for it - go to the IAA website and look at the ammunition catalogs.
Well - I wasn't asking you for your sources - but - since you mention not relying on one website, did YOU bother to go to that website and download the prices lists and catalogs - to see for yourself - that it's "Colt's"?
I provided you a link & if you choose not to look - then I can't do anything more.
I will tell you this though. I have enjoyed your posts for a lot of years.
I always felt you knew what you were talking about.
I no longer think that.
Good day sir.
They are PDF files - otherwise I would copy and paste them here.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Yes I looked.
Sorry I no longer meet up with your expectations.
Sorry I no longer meet up with your expectations.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
OK
My problem with your line of reasoning is that just because the name Long Colt is printed on a box of ammunition, that does not mean that was the official designation of the cartridge.
There are manufacturers today who are printing 45 Long Colt on the box. Does that make it correct? Does that change the official designation of the cartridge?
Here is an antique box of 45 Colt ammunition made by Winchester. The box says FOR Colt's New Breech Loading Army Revolver.
This is a box of 45 Colt ammo from my own collection. As it says on the box, this box left the Frankford Arsenal in 1874. Again, the box says FOR Colt's Revolver, Cal; .45
I can tell you the official Army designation of that cartridge back in 1873 was Colt's Revolver Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1873.
So I will give you that much.
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) had its beginnings in 1913.
Some time since then, SAAMI published their cartridge and chamber specifications. This is the official SAAMI drawing for the cartridge dimensions and chamber dimensions of the 45 Colt cartridge. Notice what it says at the top right. 45 Colt. Period.
So I submit to you that ever since SAAMI designated the cartridge name as 45 Colt, that has been the official name of the cartridge, no matter what is printed on the boxes.
I will admit that prior to SAAMI standardizing the name it may have gone under a few different names.
My problem with your line of reasoning is that just because the name Long Colt is printed on a box of ammunition, that does not mean that was the official designation of the cartridge.
There are manufacturers today who are printing 45 Long Colt on the box. Does that make it correct? Does that change the official designation of the cartridge?
Here is an antique box of 45 Colt ammunition made by Winchester. The box says FOR Colt's New Breech Loading Army Revolver.
This is a box of 45 Colt ammo from my own collection. As it says on the box, this box left the Frankford Arsenal in 1874. Again, the box says FOR Colt's Revolver, Cal; .45
I can tell you the official Army designation of that cartridge back in 1873 was Colt's Revolver Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1873.
So I will give you that much.
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) had its beginnings in 1913.
Some time since then, SAAMI published their cartridge and chamber specifications. This is the official SAAMI drawing for the cartridge dimensions and chamber dimensions of the 45 Colt cartridge. Notice what it says at the top right. 45 Colt. Period.
So I submit to you that ever since SAAMI designated the cartridge name as 45 Colt, that has been the official name of the cartridge, no matter what is printed on the boxes.
I will admit that prior to SAAMI standardizing the name it may have gone under a few different names.
Jim Watson
Member
We frequently read of .45 Colt being loaded down by the Army.Not everybody did. 1887 UMC catalog page showing full charge 40 grains.
NeroM
Member
IMHO- splitting hairs about a name for the historic cartridge we now call 45 Colt is an adolescent activity.
It is my understanding, the cartridge for "Colt's revolver, 45 cal" - could in the latter 1800s be confused with S&W 45 and Schofield 45. Both of latter have a shorter case and may or may not fit into a Colt's revolver- depending upon the exact year of make. Ultimately the US Govt produced 45 Schofield that would work in a Colt's 45- shorter case however. So now there were (and still are) two cartridges that fit into Colt's 45 revolver.
Not really any different from today's 38Spl/357 or 44Spl/44 mag. So, the 45 Long Colt term slipped into common use to distinguish between 45 Colt (longer case) and 45 Schofield (shorter case).
45 Colt is still the official designation.
Call it 45 Long Colt if that makes you feel better or more nostalgic!
It is my understanding, the cartridge for "Colt's revolver, 45 cal" - could in the latter 1800s be confused with S&W 45 and Schofield 45. Both of latter have a shorter case and may or may not fit into a Colt's revolver- depending upon the exact year of make. Ultimately the US Govt produced 45 Schofield that would work in a Colt's 45- shorter case however. So now there were (and still are) two cartridges that fit into Colt's 45 revolver.
Not really any different from today's 38Spl/357 or 44Spl/44 mag. So, the 45 Long Colt term slipped into common use to distinguish between 45 Colt (longer case) and 45 Schofield (shorter case).
45 Colt is still the official designation.
Call it 45 Long Colt if that makes you feel better or more nostalgic!
The must be lot of really dumb, slow minded folks in the handgun world. They get the 45 Colt cartridge confused with the 45 Schofield, so the name of the original cartridge had to be changed to 45 Long Colt. Yet the Schofield round, which was also known as the 45 S&W, was never called the 45 Short Schofield, or 45 Short S&W. Curious!
Dave
Dave
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Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Vern Humphrey
Member
You think that's dumb? How about a .40 caliber cartridge that holds 38 grains of powder being called the .38-40 instead of the .40-38?
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
Since we seem to be getting way off the original topic, let me give some history on the 45 Schofield cartridge.
Colt obtained their first contract with the government to supply the Single Action Army revolver to the Army in 1873.
By 1875 Smith and Wesson decided they did not want to be left out of what could potentially turn into lucrative contracts with the Army, so they entered into discussions with the government about supplying revolvers to the Army. Previously, about 1869, S&W had sold 1000 of their first large frame Top Break revolver, which later became known as the American Model to the government. This was the first cartridge revolver the Army bought. The cartridge it fired was a 44 caliber cartridge that used a heeled bullet. This round became known as the 44 S&W American round. At the time Smith and Wesson was busy building revolvers for the Russian, Turkish, and Japanese governments which eventually numbered around 150,000 revolvers produced. Their standard length cylinder was 1 7/16" long, which fit the 44 American round perfectly. When S&W entered into their discussions with the Army, it became known that the Army only wanted cartridge revolvers chambered for 45 caliber cartridges. The 1 7/16" cylinder S&W was using at the time was not long enough to accommodate the 45 Colt round. Because they were in the middle of the Russian model production, S&W did not want to change the tooling for a longer cylinder and frame to house it, particularly since there was no guarantee a government contract would materialize.
A compromise was reached where the bore of the new S&W revolvers was opened up to .45 caliber, but a shorter cartridge was created that would fit into a 1 7/16" cylinder. The first official name for this cartridge that the government used was Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1875. This was simply a shorter version of the 1873 Colt cartridge, except the rim was a larger diameter in order to engage the extractor star of the Schofield revolver. The Colt SAA cartridge did not need a large diameter rim because empties were poked out of the cylinder by an ejector rod that poked them out from the inside. All the rim of the 1873 cartridge had to do was keep the round from sinking into the chamber when struck from behind by the firing pin. Just like the first 45 Colt cartridge, the new 'schofield' cartridge had a copper, not brass case, and used the Benet style of inside priming.
The original 'Schofield' cartridge carried a 230 grain bullet, as opposed to the 250 grain bullet of the Colt cartridge, and a charge of 28 grains of Black Powder vs the original Colt loading of 40 grains. (Yes, later the 45 Colt charge was cut back to about 30 grains, as is written on the box I posted a while ago).
The Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1882, and 1890, was an update to the original 'schofield' cartridge, using Boxer priming and it was reloadable. A slightly shorter version, 1.42" long as opposed to the earlier 1.438" long version of the 'schofield' cartridge was called the Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1896.
Photos:
The two cartridges on the left in this photo are both 45 Colts. The two on the right are both 45 Schofields. The two in the center are the original copper cased versions with Benet interior priming. The cannelures (oh no, there's that word again) at the bottom of the copper cased rounds hold the Anvil Plate of the interior priming in place. The two rounds on the outside are my reloads in modern brass, a 45 Colt on the far left, a 45 Schofield on the far right.
Take a good look at how tiny the rim is on the copper cased 45 Colt round. That is all that was required to keep it from being shoved into the cylinder when struck by a firing pin. That rim is only .503 in diameter. The rim on the Schofield round is .517 in diameter so the Schofield extractor could get a good grip on it.
Current SAAMI standard rim diameter for 45 Colt is .512, for 45 Schofield it is .520.
This photo shows a cutaway of the Benet inside priming. There is an Anvil Plate held in place at the bottom of the cartridge. The priming compound is sandwiched between the rear of the cartridge and the anvil plate. From the rear they look like rimfire cartridges, because there is no primer pressed in from the rear. These cartridges had to be made from soft copper because when the firing pin struck the center of the cartridge, it compressed the priming charge between the bottom of the case and the anvil plate, igniting the charge. The resultant flame passed through the two flash holes to ignite the main powder charge. Because of their construction, Benet primed cartridges were not reloadable.
At the top of this photo is a 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army, chambered for 45 Colt. At the bottom is a Smith and Wesson 1st Model Schofield that left the factory in 1875, the year S&W procured their contract with the government. The government bought 3,035 First Model Schofields, and then in 1876-1877 they bought an additional 5,934 Second Model Schofields. That is all that were ever made until the year 2000 when Smith and Wesson made some more. No I do not know exactly how many, but that version was only made from 2000 to 2002, and unlike the Italian replicas they were only chambered for the 45 Schofield cartridge.
This photo shows the rear of the Schofield cylinder. The extractor is clearly visible.
Five modern 45 Schofield fired cartridges in the cylinder of the Schofield, ready to be extracted.
Two original Benet primed, copper cased 45 Schofield rounds as well as four of my modern 45 Schofield reloads with a 2nd Gen Colt cylinder.
Here is a photo of them loaded into the 2nd Gen Colt cylinder. As can be seen, they all fit.
Just for the fun of it, here are the same cartridges in a Ruger New Vaquero cylinder.
Since we seem to be getting way off the original topic, let me give some history on the 45 Schofield cartridge.
Colt obtained their first contract with the government to supply the Single Action Army revolver to the Army in 1873.
By 1875 Smith and Wesson decided they did not want to be left out of what could potentially turn into lucrative contracts with the Army, so they entered into discussions with the government about supplying revolvers to the Army. Previously, about 1869, S&W had sold 1000 of their first large frame Top Break revolver, which later became known as the American Model to the government. This was the first cartridge revolver the Army bought. The cartridge it fired was a 44 caliber cartridge that used a heeled bullet. This round became known as the 44 S&W American round. At the time Smith and Wesson was busy building revolvers for the Russian, Turkish, and Japanese governments which eventually numbered around 150,000 revolvers produced. Their standard length cylinder was 1 7/16" long, which fit the 44 American round perfectly. When S&W entered into their discussions with the Army, it became known that the Army only wanted cartridge revolvers chambered for 45 caliber cartridges. The 1 7/16" cylinder S&W was using at the time was not long enough to accommodate the 45 Colt round. Because they were in the middle of the Russian model production, S&W did not want to change the tooling for a longer cylinder and frame to house it, particularly since there was no guarantee a government contract would materialize.
A compromise was reached where the bore of the new S&W revolvers was opened up to .45 caliber, but a shorter cartridge was created that would fit into a 1 7/16" cylinder. The first official name for this cartridge that the government used was Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1875. This was simply a shorter version of the 1873 Colt cartridge, except the rim was a larger diameter in order to engage the extractor star of the Schofield revolver. The Colt SAA cartridge did not need a large diameter rim because empties were poked out of the cylinder by an ejector rod that poked them out from the inside. All the rim of the 1873 cartridge had to do was keep the round from sinking into the chamber when struck from behind by the firing pin. Just like the first 45 Colt cartridge, the new 'schofield' cartridge had a copper, not brass case, and used the Benet style of inside priming.
The original 'Schofield' cartridge carried a 230 grain bullet, as opposed to the 250 grain bullet of the Colt cartridge, and a charge of 28 grains of Black Powder vs the original Colt loading of 40 grains. (Yes, later the 45 Colt charge was cut back to about 30 grains, as is written on the box I posted a while ago).
The Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1882, and 1890, was an update to the original 'schofield' cartridge, using Boxer priming and it was reloadable. A slightly shorter version, 1.42" long as opposed to the earlier 1.438" long version of the 'schofield' cartridge was called the Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1896.
Photos:
The two cartridges on the left in this photo are both 45 Colts. The two on the right are both 45 Schofields. The two in the center are the original copper cased versions with Benet interior priming. The cannelures (oh no, there's that word again) at the bottom of the copper cased rounds hold the Anvil Plate of the interior priming in place. The two rounds on the outside are my reloads in modern brass, a 45 Colt on the far left, a 45 Schofield on the far right.
Take a good look at how tiny the rim is on the copper cased 45 Colt round. That is all that was required to keep it from being shoved into the cylinder when struck by a firing pin. That rim is only .503 in diameter. The rim on the Schofield round is .517 in diameter so the Schofield extractor could get a good grip on it.
Current SAAMI standard rim diameter for 45 Colt is .512, for 45 Schofield it is .520.
This photo shows a cutaway of the Benet inside priming. There is an Anvil Plate held in place at the bottom of the cartridge. The priming compound is sandwiched between the rear of the cartridge and the anvil plate. From the rear they look like rimfire cartridges, because there is no primer pressed in from the rear. These cartridges had to be made from soft copper because when the firing pin struck the center of the cartridge, it compressed the priming charge between the bottom of the case and the anvil plate, igniting the charge. The resultant flame passed through the two flash holes to ignite the main powder charge. Because of their construction, Benet primed cartridges were not reloadable.
At the top of this photo is a 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army, chambered for 45 Colt. At the bottom is a Smith and Wesson 1st Model Schofield that left the factory in 1875, the year S&W procured their contract with the government. The government bought 3,035 First Model Schofields, and then in 1876-1877 they bought an additional 5,934 Second Model Schofields. That is all that were ever made until the year 2000 when Smith and Wesson made some more. No I do not know exactly how many, but that version was only made from 2000 to 2002, and unlike the Italian replicas they were only chambered for the 45 Schofield cartridge.
This photo shows the rear of the Schofield cylinder. The extractor is clearly visible.
Five modern 45 Schofield fired cartridges in the cylinder of the Schofield, ready to be extracted.
Two original Benet primed, copper cased 45 Schofield rounds as well as four of my modern 45 Schofield reloads with a 2nd Gen Colt cylinder.
Here is a photo of them loaded into the 2nd Gen Colt cylinder. As can be seen, they all fit.
Just for the fun of it, here are the same cartridges in a Ruger New Vaquero cylinder.
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Driftwood Johnson
Member
Let's not even get into that right now.
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