How Much Capacity Is Needed?

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I carry what I shoot well enough to be comfortable with in the event I am ever forced to use it defensively. I am proficient with my Glock 17 and Springfield Range Officer 9mm and carry one or the other daily. I prefer the extra capacity of the Glock, but I shoot the Range Officer a little more accurately and have 10 rounders for it. Either pistol is carried with 2 spare mags as the magazine is the weakest link in the system and even if the mag fails it still carries extra ammo should it be needed.

With the mob violence, riots, and general stupidity going on the last few years, the chance of needing more than 3 rounds has increased a bit. Still the odds of you ever having to use a gun defensively are still so incredibly slim that the debate of how many rounds, what caliber, and reloads or not are about even in usefulness and pointlessness. Carry what you shoot well, in a capable caliber, with whatever amount of extra ammo you are comfortable with and have a nice day. Worry more about diet, exercise, stress relief.
 
From the desk of President Joe Biden:

It is necessary to keep handguns from the evil doers in our society. Selling even law abiding citizens handguns eventually creates a stock that may filter into the hands of criminals or rampagers through theft or unsupervised private sales. Join me in banning handguns in civilian use. As the experts on thehighroad.com say:

Still the odds of you ever having to use a gun defensively are still so incredibly slim.
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Given these odds why supply the instruments of thousands of suicides and the lethal tools of urban gun violence? We support the 2nd Amendment and the supporting use of bolt action rifles for hunting. As Senator Amy Klobuchar said as she ran against me, in evaluation gun laws: “Would this hurt my Uncle Dick in the deer stand?” As I said, a simple shotgun shot through the door or in the air will suffice. Semiautomatic weapons are too hard for the average citizen to master.

A handgun ban will not hurt Uncle Dick but will save lives!

Thank you.

President Joseph Biden.

------------

My point repeatedly is that you may carry what you want but to say that a 5 is enough gun is optimal is just foolish. It is a compromise due to circumstance or based on a misunderstanding of risk and statistics. The average doesn't always happen and one should think about a reasonable criterion in the more intense critical incidents. That level of significance is (from reasonable professionals) a semi and a reload.
 
Styx said:
I carry a 5 round revolver. From polls on other firearm forums where well over a hundred participated, most didn't carry a reload. I'd be all for threads like this being banned. I carry what's right for me based on my personal circumstances and based on probability, statistics, and real world data. I don't care what others carry nor do I care about their opinions on what I carry. I pose this question in everyone of these threads, and no one has been able to answer it yet. Where are all the stories, news articles, videos, and/or any documentation whatsoever of civilians running out of ammo in a gun fight, and being assaulted or murdered as a result? Listening to some members on here, you'd think it would be somewhat common. They can't seem to back up their assertions with any real world data, yet they speak as if they can. They also disregard all the data that doesn't support how they feel.

As you stated, I think I'm perfectly fine with what I've been carrying, and they are overly worried and over stating something that has a 1 in a quadrillion chances of happening. They think and are convinced that in a gun fight at self defense distances I'm going to either miss most of my shots, the few hits I do get will just tickle my attacker, and/or will need 30 rounds to take my attacker down. Anything less, I'm going to die. They aren't changing my mind and I'm not changing theirs. It's mostly the same members regurgitating the same arguments over and over again whenever these threads pop up once a month. Kinda pointless...
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I used to post on a bicycle enthusiast board, and their version of "capacity wars" was "helmet wars". The same types of people making the same types of arguments, but about whether one should or should not wear a helmet, and whether people who did or didn't were paranoid losers or begging to get killed in a bicycle accident. The moderators finally created one giant thread into which all helmet arguments were unceremoniously dumped, and it made the rest of the site noticeably more pleasant. I suggest the same sort of thing on THR. (With Kleanbore as moderator, just to help keep everyone calm. :D)
 
.38 Special said:
I used to post on a bicycle enthusiast board, and their version of "capacity wars" was "helmet wars". The same types of people making the same types of arguments, but about whether one should or should not wear a helmet, and whether people who did or didn't were paranoid losers or begging to get killed in a bicycle accident. The moderators finally created one giant thread into which all helmet arguments were unceremoniously dumped, and it made the rest of the site noticeably more pleasant. I suggest the same sort of thing on THR. (With Kleanbore as moderator, just to help keep everyone calm. :D)
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A bike helmet has saved my life two more times than all my handguns combined. :D:neener:
 
That is a good idea - one sticky capacity thread and all new questions or comments can go there! Using your gun is as rare as being hit by lightning! Or being in a plane crash. As I have said, I have been hit by lightning. A friend of mine survived a DC-8 running out of gas and crashing in the woods. In class, the teacher said: It is a rare as ...

We both waved at him!
 
Hartkopf said:
Do you have helmets stashed around the house?:D
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When I was in grad school and both bike commuting and racing it felt like it, I had several of them and left them laying around to the annoyance of my roommates. I knew a guy that left baseball hats around his house and you always new that if you picked up a hat there would be a loaded handgun under the hat. I should do that with bike helmets. Then they could save my life in two ways. :D
 
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being summer, I clip a NAA Mini revolver with 4 rounds of .22 Mag im my pocket, and figure that is better than nothing. might save me, might not, but again - I actually have it on me, not in my car, not in my desk, not in my safe, on me.
 
Kleanbore said:
Basis?
Source?
Unless they are attacking you or are about to do so, you have no business facing them with a firearm. Once they attack, they are not "standing for a fight".
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Surprised you don’t know this, or don’t want to, but Claide Werners over 5000 of civilian shooting incidents. You can do the work and GOOGLE the rest. But here is a video that explains it well.



I don’t know why you quoted the last part, but sure you thought it was witty.

Is it me, or does smart people that actually look and study these facts get dumbfounded when folks don’t believe them or want to live in a fantasy world and practice for the John Wick moment they dream about?

Lefty
 
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"How Much Capacity Is Needed?" While I'm sure there are numerous self defense shootings that have received little or no press coverage, of the self defense shootings I've seen reported, the answer in virtually every case has been, not much capacity at all.
 
Without weighing in on the overall discussion, I am curious if anyone knows of any incidents where the bad guys were so determined to win that they kept up the attack even after the good guy started shooting.

Outside of police-involved shootings, and things like organized crime hits and vengeance between drug dealers, it seems to me that in all the videos I've seen, once the shooting starts the bad guys scatter. I'm not sure that the need to shoot and stop multiple determined attackers actually exists in the real world of civilian CCW - though I would like to know if I am wrong.
 
.38 Special said:
Without weighing in on the overall discussion, I am curious if anyone knows of any incidents where the bad guys were so determined to win that they kept up the attack even after the good guy started shooting.

Outside of police-involved shootings, and things like organized crime hits and vengeance between drug dealers, it seems to me that in all the videos I've seen, once the shooting starts the bad guys scatter. I'm not sure that the need to shoot and stop multiple determined attackers actually exists in the real world of civilian CCW - though I would like to know if I am wrong.
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The following link is a news article covering the only incident I'm aware of where a civilian needed extra capacity to fend of multiple attackers. https://www.wistv.com/story/19236842/gun-shop-owner-shoots-kills-man-during-attempted-robbery/
 
Plan2Live said:
The following link is a news article covering the only incident I'm aware of where a civilian needed extra capacity to fend of multiple attackers. https://www.wistv.com/story/19236842/gun-shop-owner-shoots-kills-man-during-attempted-robbery/
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Thank you for that. I wonder if video will become available. I am aware of a number of similar situations in which multiple attackers were shot (or shot at), but not one in which those attackers were really "making a stand". All of the ones which I have seen were, at most, episodes of the bad guys shooting wildly behind them as they tried to escape.
 
GEM said:
That is a good idea - one sticky capacity thread and all new questions or comments can go there! Using your gun is as rare as being hit by lightning! Or being in a plane crash. As I have said, I have been hit by lightning. A friend of mine survived a DC-8 running out of gas and crashing in the woods. In class, the teacher said: It is a rare as ...

We both waved at him!
Click to expand...

Funny. Kind of on the same type of insane odds, my wife and I were going the other way on the interstate and saw, right across the median, an armed murderer get shot down by the cops right as we passed.

What are the chances of that in a lifetime? Unless things get a ton worse, pretty freaking low. Yet it happened.
 
I started my LE career with a S&W Model 65 and two speed loaders. 18 rounds was considered adequate for duty use in those days. This discussion goes round and round in circles. It's simply stupid to talk about capacity and how many rounds are enough. There is no way of knowing that in advance.

The discussion we should be having is; How will I respond if ____________ happens and I'm carrying my _____________ with ________ reloads. We had a saying in the Army that the next war will be A come as you are party. The same thing holds true for an armed encounter. You can't plan for it in advance unless you are planning offensive action which is beyond the scope of this forum. If you are unfortunate enough to get into a gun fight the person who attacked you has chosen the time, place and done his best to put the odds in his favor. If it comes while you are walking back to your car from the beach and the gun you have on you is a Beretta 21A in your pocket your response will be different then if it comes while you are walking into Walmart with your Glock 19 on your belt and two spare mags in your mag carrier.

Life isn't a western movie. Your reputation as a gun fighter isn't going to be hurt if you break contact and disengage. We tend to look at every self defense situation like a 1950s western movie script. You don't have to stand and fight. In fact there are a lot of scenarios where engaging in a gun fight is the wrong decision to make. Soldiers practice break contact battle drills. Police officers are taught that there is nothing wrong with disengaging and coming back later with sufficient help to make the arrest.

The key to solving the problem of how many is enough is training. If you are like most of people, your optimum load out will not fit into every situation our modern society can create. You probably aren't going to carry an AR with 12 magazines in pouches in your plate carrier and a Glock 18 with 4 mags at the beach. (or in most public venues) There are plenty of situations where acceptable dress is going to limit what you can reasonably carry. You may have to look at what you are carrying as not the gun you will use in a fight, but as a tool to allow you to break contact and escape.

Don't look at this problem as how many rounds is enough, look at it as, what can I reasonably do with this combination should things go sideways.
 
.38 Special said:
I used to post on a bicycle enthusiast board, and their version of "capacity wars" was "helmet wars". The same types of people making the same types of arguments, but about whether one should or should not wear a helmet, and whether people who did or didn't were paranoid losers or begging to get killed in a bicycle accident. The moderators finally created one giant thread into which all helmet arguments were unceremoniously dumped, and it made the rest of the site noticeably more pleasant. I suggest the same sort of thing on THR. (With Kleanbore as moderator, just to help keep everyone calm. :D)
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Agreed. Seems like capacity and caliber wars are a never ending battle that will never end with a solution.
 
Styx said:
Agreed. Seems like capacity and caliber wars are a never ending battle that will never end with a solution.
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They do end in solutions, or at least the data to come to a solution. That data is the good part of these wars it brings out lots of data to support the various sides of the argument and new people get to see this data and old people hopefully get to see any new data acquired since the last time we beat the dead horse. The unsatisfactory part to some is that there is no one answer that we can point to that is "correct" for everyone. Each person takes in all this good data (that is unfortunately not as complete or succinct as we would like) and has to balance that "fuzzy-data" against their varied needs and risk tolerance. The result is we get lots of different answers to these questions and that bothers some people. It should not. As long as you feel you feel you have sufficient data and sufficient training to contextualize the data so you can make a decision based on your needs then that should be all that maters.
 
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I have been in at least a hundred shooting engagements thanks to overseas Army field trips. In exactly zero of them I have said "I wish I brought less ammo." Carry as much as you are comfortable with, that you can reasonably conceal if necessary. For me that is one spare magazine, regardless of capacity in the firearm already.
 
.38 Special said:
Without weighing in on the overall discussion, I am curious if anyone knows of any incidents where the bad guys were so determined to win that they kept up the attack even after the good guy started shooting
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It isn't determination to win. It's the issue of survival.

Should a citizen stumble into an armed robbery in a store and shoot "the robber",would he not expect the 'tail gunner' to shoot, particularly if the citizen is between that person and the door?

How can the defender be sure that he is not between the other thug and the thug's car?

How about the other burglar, who steps into the room after hearing a shot?

If=t is important to not imagine that a use of force incident will take place as does shooting on the square range, where everting bad is down range,
 
LeftyRed said:
Surprised you don’t know this, or don’t want to, but Claide Werners over 5000 of civilian shooting incidents. You can do the work and GOOGLE the rest....
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That analysis has been discussed at length here.

First, all of the incidents that Claude studies involved successful defenses. Second, when one notes the number of incidents in which the defender were afforded the opportunity to retrieve a firearm from another location, one quickly realizes that those data are not representative of street or parking lot encounters, in which charging attackers necessitate fast shooting and multiple shots. third, the incidents covered are only this in which someone chose to publicize them.

Furhter, the most of the data remain unvalidated media reports

Those averages may be an average of something, but I would not characterize then as the average.

LeftyRed said:
I don’t know why you quoted the last part, but sure you thought it was witty.
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You had mentioned the idea of attackers "standing a fight".
 
This many:

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