A Kel-Tec engineer must have escaped to S&W, MP12

Looks like it should say Glock on it. It’s ugly, but they are functional guns. In a gun meant to be used defensively they are OK in that role, but are terrible outside of that role. Personally I prefer traditional shotguns, but I won’t knock it for being a bullpup, especially if it will take mini-shells without modification.

Be fun to shoot Skeet with.

Im not into the bullpup design either.

Didn't put much effort into it's appearance..........or is it supposed to be ugly?

12g is no joke. But it looks like another pump bull pup. Wake me up when there's a semi auto version. I really don't like seeing direct copies. They should have improved it somehow.

If you want to copy something, copy a Luago Arms Alien.

Wow that's ugly, but it does appear practical if you've got a boy to cary it for you.

I think comparing it to a KelTec is a tad harsh. . .

edwardware said:

I think comparing it to a KelTec is a tad harsh. . .

Click to expand...

Have you seen the KelTec KSG? It looks like S&W took the fire control off a KSG and slapped a S&W one on there and called it good. It looks as if they totally ripped off the design. Not surprising though, Ruger did the same with the LCP. KelTec is one of the only innovators out there, all the others refine.

I didn't think it was possible to design something with so many intersecting angles and lines.

It looks as if they totally ripped off the design.

Click to expand...

Kinda like every AR manufacturer after Armalite, right?

That thing almost makes the Hi Point Carbine look good.

And yes I own a Planet of the Apes looking Hi Point, it is one of the best functioning and accurate pistol caliber carbines I own.

One thing I did not see stated on the S&W website is how the M&P12 ejects. Is it truly ambidextrous?

these things are silly in how similar they look… not unlike the similarity between rem 870 and mossy 500 as well as all the other traditional pump guns. It’s clearly a ripoff… but it has a fore grip so it’s different enough…

kwb377 said:

Kinda like every AR manufacturer after Armalite, right?

Click to expand...

Yup. Except AR's were designed to be copied, with their modularity, ease of parts interchangeability, etc.

Not to mention the AR has been the military platform for 50+ years.

I just think it's comical that other US manufacturers fail to be innovative, and are so bold to be that close of a copy of another private companies development.

I own a few of Kellgren's designs but overall I feel they lack refinement and quality, but it is still pretty crazy with his budget he still out innovates these marketplace titans.

kwb377 said:

Kinda like every AR manufacturer after Armalite, right?

Click to expand...

I think more like the way the Glock handguns have been copied (improved?) by all but not a standard platform with interchangeability.

When I bought my Glock 17 Gen2 all my friends laughed and asked why I bought that plastic POS?

BreechFace said:

I just think it's comical that other US manufacturers fail to be innovative, and are so bold to be that close of a copy of another private companies development.

I own a few of Kellgren's designs but overall I feel they lack refinement and quality, but it is still pretty crazy with his budget he still out innovates these marketplace titans.

Click to expand...

I put George Kelgren on par with the great inventors and patent refiners of yesteryear. He’s not as good at the business side with production scaling and QC issues being well known, but the designs and innovations are impressive. If he had a better manufacturing engineering department he might be an even more serious player in the gun world. What is sad is that one man with a relatively small company is the primary innovator in the American arms world, and truthfully in the global arms world because nobody else is doing anything really new. There’s innovation in materials and in magazines, but that’s the big talk from the larger companies. It seems as if the companies with boards of directors like to play it safe to take in profits where Kellgren is still at the helm for his company and can throw money into R&D as he sees fit.

As for being unrefined… Kellgren started off with stuff like the Grendel P12. His new stuff is much more refined than that mess (though the p3at is clearly a descendant). The PMR 30 also is more refined than it’s original form.

That. Is. Hideous.

Video review: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/08/17/new-smith-wesson-shotgun-the-sw-mp-12/

A Kel-Tec engineer must have escaped to S&W

Click to expand...

Let's hope not...

I see in the pictures and description that it comes with removable chokes. That is quite interesting in itself as the KSG12 needs an adapter to accept chokes. I also like the AR style safety. The action release and tube selector look pretty awkward though.

BreechFace said:

Yup. Except AR's were designed to be copied, with their modularity, ease of parts interchangeability, etc.

Not to mention the AR has been the military platform for 50+ years.

I just think it's comical that other US manufacturers fail to be innovative, and are so bold to be that close of a copy of another private companies development.

I own a few of Kellgren's designs but overall I feel they lack refinement and quality, but it is still pretty crazy with his budget he still out innovates these marketplace titans.

Click to expand...

KelTec is also especially bad at the first run of whatever they are selling. Too few of them and too buggy

Is it even a S&W Gun? Is it imported from Turkey? (Not a bad thing, I love my Armscor VR80.)

So tacticle!!!



Kinda takes the same aesthetic cues from...

Hopefully the trigger is as bad as the M&P's is.