A Kel-Tec engineer must have escaped to S&W, MP12

[GEM]

Can I say: Muh Truck Gun!
Oh, wait, I don't have a truck.
I'm reading some shotgun instructors' reviews who aren't that impressed. Watching the video, it certainly pushes you around. The length and reach of the rack wouldn't work for me - I have screwed up right shoulder and I'm a left. That extension would murder me. Pistol grip shotguns are known to hammer your wrist a bit.

I'm all for innovation but this one doesn't do it. For me.

 

[nipprdog]

Have you seen the KelTec KSG? It looks like S&W took the fire control off a KSG and slapped a S&W one on there and called it good. It looks as if they totally ripped off the design. .

the differences are explained here;

 

[kje54]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, you either like or dislike bullpups, doesn't seem to be any middle ground. That said, ya don't like the way it looks? Don't buy one........ I love the bullpup design, think they're cool looking and (for me) quite functional plus already own a KS7, heading out in a little while to pick up my new SDS m12 PT semi-auto bullpup.

 

[The Glockodile]

I like bullpups.

But that is an ugly bullpup...

 

[kje54]

I like bullpups.

But that is an ugly bullpup...

I like it but probably won't buy one, right now I have three 12 gauges and if I buy another it's gonna be a sxs.

 

[TTv2]

KelTec is also especially bad at the first run of whatever they are selling. Too few of them and too buggy

That's nothing new, lots of new guns had early issues that got corrected over time. I suspect that with this being S&W's first shotgun in many years it too will have issues.

 

[TTv2]

I put George Kelgren on par with the great inventors and patent refiners of yesteryear. He’s not as good at the business side with production scaling and QC issues being well known, but the designs and innovations are impressive. If he had a better manufacturing engineering department he might be an even more serious player in the gun world. What is sad is that one man with a relatively small company is the primary innovator in the American arms world, and truthfully in the global arms world because nobody else is doing anything really new. There’s innovation in materials and in magazines, but that’s the big talk from the larger companies. It seems as if the companies with boards of directors like to play it safe to take in profits where Kellgren is still at the helm for his company and can throw money into R&D as he sees fit.

As for being unrefined… Kellgren started off with stuff like the Grendel P12. His new stuff is much more refined than that mess (though the p3at is clearly a descendant). The PMR 30 also is more refined than it’s original form.

I think people forget that Kel Tec is small company, they don't have the same number of machines, employees, or budgets that Ruger and S&W have, heck they probably don't even have the space for any more machines. I have no doubt that George could use more metal parts where plastic is used, but that requires more time which when you're limited with the machine tools you have you're going to struggle even more to meet demand.

Then there's the issue of how many people are going to pay $400 for an enhanced PF9 or $700 for a really nice Sub 2000 from a company called... Kel Tec? I mean, they're trying to improve their reputation of being the cheap garbage gun company because they tried to make the PF9 work like a Glock, but priced like a Jennings or Jimenez. I'm fine with what they make now, I stay away from their problem pistols like the P3AT and PF9 and the apparently flawed KS7, but if there's one thing they make I wish they would make a better version of it would be the SU16 rifles. IDK what I'd pay for that better SU16 tho.

The larger corporate structured companies like Ruger, S&W, etc. do play things safe because if you don't get results with your new project and meet a quarterly estimate then the stock price drops and that upsets people; Kel Tec doesn't have to deal with that problem, to them a stock is the part of the rifle that you press against your shoulder.

Kel Tec has come a long way in the 25 years they've been around and since they've made the KSG for 10 years now I'd rather buy that than S&W's MP12. That said I do like the MP12's safety and they seem to have had the minishells in mind when they decided to produce this shotgun, so it should have zero issues running them.

 

[lemaymiami]

Don’t see any particular pressing need for a bullpup design on a shotgun but that’s just my opinion… That said I can see one serious drawback in that design - it places the muzzle much closer to the shooter. At night or in near dark conditions I’m pretty sure one shot would seriously compromise a shooter’s night vision…
On the street I always had my shotgun in hand on hot calls and anything that might compromise your ability to fire, maneuver, and be able to see down range would not be welcome at all…

 

[giggitygiggity]

With a street price north of $1000 ($1099 if pre-ordered from Brownells), I’m not sure how well these will sell. I think they would sell decently if they were around $600-800, but for over $1000, you could get the semi-auto IWI TS-12 or Beretta 1301. That said, SW guns seem to do very well out of the gate in terms of reliability and performance so it’ll be interesting to see how this does both from a sales and functional standpoint.

 

[SquidBubble]

Meh. I was hoping it'd be semi-auto. Now that would be innovative.

 

[Antihero]

That's nothing new, lots of new guns had early issues that got corrected over time. I suspect that with this being S&W's first shotgun in many years it too will have issues.

KelTec seems worse since they are a small company.

I own a few, I like them but I don't buy anything they release for the first year they are out

 

[Rule3]

So how many regular folks need a shotgun that can hold 12 round. Plus bust your shoulder?

I mean really how tactical and macho does a person need? Range Toy for big boys

Well Detective, this drugged out guy broke into my home and I need 6 rounds of 00 and 6 slugs to stop him.

Watch the video when the young lady is shooting it. Put it in slow motion.

 

[Antihero]

So how many regular folks need a shotgun that can hold 12 round. Plus bust your shoulder?

I mean really how tactical and macho does a person need? Range Toy for big boys

Well Detective, this drugged out guy broke into my home and I need 6 rounds of 00 and 6 slugs to stop him.

Watch the video when the young lady is shooting it. Put it in slow motion.

The longer barreled ksg25 holds 41 minishells lol

 

[TTv2]

KelTec seems worse since they are a small company.

I own a few, I like them but I don't buy anything they release for the first year they are out

I honestly can't think of one company that when releasing a new gun I would buy within the first year, they all seem to have problems.

 

[TTv2]

So how many regular folks need a shotgun that can hold 12 round. Plus bust your shoulder?

I mean really how tactical and macho does a person need? Range Toy for big boys

Well Detective, this drugged out guy broke into my home and I need 6 rounds of 00 and 6 slugs to stop him.

Watch the video when the young lady is shooting it. Put it in slow motion.

Who says it's for home defense? I can think of plenty of uses for these shotguns for competition shooting events, the fact they're bullpups with a 26 inch OAL is what makes them superior for defense inside the home.

 

[The Glockodile]

What's the ergonomics like, I wonder?

I couldn't bring myself to like the overall "feel" of the KSG. I can get myself to rack it properly to prevent short - stroking, but the feel was all wrong.

Pump guns seem best when following a more conservative, archaic design.

 

[mcb]

Who says it's for home defense? I can think of plenty of uses for these shotguns for competition shooting events, the fact they're bullpups with a 26 inch OAL is what makes them superior for defense inside the home.

Given most shotgun stages at practical shooting competition turn into who can reload their shotgun the fastest I think this shotgun is going to see very little practical competition use. From the review posted on the first page it looks like a real pain to reload compared to more conventional shotguns.

 

[kje54]

Given most shotgun stages at practical shooting competition turn into who can reload their shotgun the fastest I think this shotgun is going to see very little practical competition use. From the review posted on the first page it looks like a real pain to reload compared to more conventional shotguns.

They are definitely slower to reload than conventional configurations and really weren't designed for competition shooting.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I'll stick with my Beretta 1301 Tactical.

 

[armoredman]

View attachment 1018822

https://www.smith-wesson.com/mp12

Yark .

I really hate bull pup anything so that is not a good start but I struggle to see a viable use for his gun that a non-bull-pup shotgun or AR would not do better. Clearly some people find (or think they have found) a good use these since we now have at least two manufactures of these duel magazine bull-pup pump shotguns.

No accounting for tastes or perceived usefulness...

That is REALLY ugly, like Chauchat ugly...expect to see it featured in a couple sci-fi movies soon.

 

[LoonWulf]

I like the KS7.....enough that I'm probably going to buy one. Dont have any desire to have the second tube, S&W branding dosent do anything for me, and I really dont like the lower grip position.

 

[Rule3]

Who says it's for home defense? I can think of plenty of uses for these shotguns for competition shooting events, the fact they're bullpups with a 26 inch OAL is what makes them superior for defense inside the home.

OK then, be the first on you block to buy one. Compete and protect your home.

 

[herrwalther]

I won't own anything Kel-tec again. So if I see this M&P12 at a gun store I will at least check it out. Price will have to come down to around $800 before I would be interested enough to buy one.

 

[mgmorden]

I don't like the integrated forward vertical grip. A) You can't take it off if you don't care for it, and B) If it were to break off or something it's not as simple as just buying and attaching another pic-rail compatible grip.

Also a little off-putting as the amount of light showing through the receiver. Attaching a pic with the "see through" spots highlighted in green. I had to check other pictures and angles to make sure that I was seeing that right. Bleh.

I have no problem saying I'd rather the Keltec over this.

 

[Sistema1927]

Just like the KSG, it is too bulky. I do have a KS7, and find it to very handy, even if it holds less shells. I ditched the carry handle and mounted a KSG rail in order to install a red dot and BUIS.