18 rounds: would you clean it?

If I shoot any amount, I clean it.

I would use a q tip under the star and nothing more.

If I shoot it I clean it.

trackskippy said:

So you do actually clean them on occasion. Whats every now and then?

Ive had 22's that gave trouble after a couple of hundred rounds, and some that will go a number of bricks. I clean them after and dont let things build into trouble.

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As I've said before, I clean them when they need it. Never the bore.

There's a good 30,000rds through this Single Six. It's the most used handgun that I own and has been in my truck for the last year. It gets the occasional wipedown and when cartridges don't fall completely into the chambers, I swab them. It has never seen a patch.




I've got more rounds through this 10/22 than probably anything else I own. Don't even remember the last time I cleaned it.

I got this gun earlier this week, shoot it for the third time today. I had cleaned and closely inspected it after the first range visit but not cleaned it since then. The next range trip is coming up in a few days and eventually there will be a need to clean the gun - like 500 rounds and a couple of weeks down the road. Since the ammo crisis I am shooting much less.

CraigC said:

As I've said before, I clean them when they need it. Never the bore.

There's a good 30,000rds through this Single Six. It's the most used handgun that I own and has been in my truck for the last year. It gets the occasional wipedown and when cartridges don't fall completely into the chambers, I swab them. It has never seen a patch.

View attachment 1026258


I've got more rounds through this 10/22 than probably anything else I own. Don't even remember the last time I cleaned it.

View attachment 1026259

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If you dont want to clean them, knock yourself out. Youre never going to convince me its the proper way to treat the guns though. To me, its abuse. But thats fine, they are your guns, and Ive got nothing in it.

Ive got and have had a number of guns that have five times plus the round counts that your Ruger has on it (they arent/weren't 22's either), and every one was cleaned every time it was shot, a couple of rounds or two or three cases. Doesnt matter. Its simply part of shooting. A couple of those guns on inspection while cleaning, did have broken parts that could have turned into a major problem if they hadnt been discovered while cleaning them. Those would have been missed with just a wipedown.

Your wipe downs are like washing a car that looks dirty, and thats all you do for it maintenance wise.

trackskippy said:

If you dont want to clean them, knock yourself out. Youre never going to convince me its the proper way to treat the guns though. To me, its abuse. But thats fine, they are your guns, and Ive got nothing in it.

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The difference here is that you 'think' it's abuse, while I 'know' it is not. I've done it both ways, you have not.

How is it abuse? If you think it's abuse, you should be able to elaborate on exactly what you think is happening. What do you think is happening to my guns that I am not aware of? Am I going to wake up one morning to find them rusted into oblivion?

trackskippy said:

Your wipe downs are like washing a car that looks dirty, and thats all you do for it maintenance wise.

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Wrong. Again, you're assuming that I do not clean them at all and that is not true. I view your incessant cleaning like washing a vehicle and changing its oil every time you drive it to town. Which is fine, it's your guns. I'm not trying to convince anyone but I'm also not going to sit and see folks tell others that it's necessary when I know it isn't. You can present your side, I'll present mine and the person reading can decide for themselves.

CraigC said:

The difference here is that you 'think' it's abuse, while I 'know' it is not. I've done it both ways, you have not.

How is it abuse? If you think it's abuse, you should be able to elaborate on exactly what you think is happening. What do you think is happening to my guns that I am not aware of? Am I going to wake up one morning to find them rusted into oblivion?



Wrong. Again, you're assuming that I do not clean them at all and that is not true. I view your incessant cleaning like washing a vehicle and changing its oil every time you drive it to town. Which is fine, it's your guns. I'm not trying to convince anyone but I'm also not going to sit and see folks tell others that it's necessary when I know it isn't. You can present your side, I'll present mine and the person reading can decide for themselves.

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I put 100 rounds through two.45 autos yesterday trying out a new load. I wiped them with a cloth at the range before they went back into my shooting bag. I’ll clean them tonight after dinner. In the meantime they’re fine. Smokeless powders are non-corrosive and so are modern primers. At the very worst they may brush graphite dust into my bag.

CraigC said:

The difference here is that you 'think' it's abuse, while I 'know' it is not. I've done it both ways, you have not.

How is it abuse? If you think it's abuse, you should be able to elaborate on exactly what you think is happening. What do you think is happening to my guns that I am not aware of? Am I going to wake up one morning to find them rusted into oblivion?

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Ive shot quite a few guns to the point they were dirty enough that it affected function, so dont tell me I havent. Guns that are clean from the start, will run and work longer, than those that are put away dirty, or not maintained.

The only difference between us is, I clean them after every outing, shot little, or shot a lot. I prefer to know the gun will work should I need it, every time I pick it up. You seem to have other priorities.

As far as rusting overnight, youve obviously never had the pleasure of finding out that some of the ammo you had shot the day before was, in fact, corrosive, and because you got home late, and didnt feel like doing what you should have, waited until the next day to clean, and come to find a nice, bright orange coating of rust from the muzzle back through the whole insides of the action. If I had followed your lead, I could have wiped it down the night before, called it good, and put it away and forgot about it. All would have been good, right?

And it is abuse, and Ive been bitten by people who abused their guns and didnt clean and maintain them, and then I ended up buying it, and the bores were trashed. Doom on me for not making them patch the dirty bore before I bought it, and I wont buy another that that hasnt been done, if the bore was dirty when I looked down it, just because of that.

Who knows, maybe they were one of your old guns. They looked great on the outside and looked to be wiped down regularly. Too bad they seemed to had been (pretty sure they were) shot with corrosive ammo and put away dirty. $800-$1000 guns at the time, and the bores were trash.

CraigC said:

Wrong. Again, you're assuming that I do not clean them at all and that is not true. I view your incessant cleaning like washing a vehicle and changing its oil every time you drive it to town. Which is fine, it's your guns. I'm not trying to convince anyone but I'm also not going to sit and see folks tell others that it's necessary when I know it isn't. You can present your side, I'll present mine and the person reading can decide for themselves.

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So how often exactly do you clean them? Every other time? Every 10 times? What? What tells you you need to clean it "now"? How do you know it will work the next time you need it, and continue to do so?

Convince me a dirty and not maintained gun will work every time you might need to pick it up and count on it. As I said above, I know a clean and maintained gun will work for a good long time from the start, and any mechanical problems that could be a problem will likely have been caught during cleaning, so that I can address it. You have no idea how long that dirty gun will work, and it only gets worse, the more you dont clean it and keep pushing that down the road.

GeoDudeFlorida said:

I put 100 rounds through two.45 autos yesterday trying out a new load. I wiped them with a cloth at the range before they went back into my shooting bag. I’ll clean them tonight after dinner. In the meantime they’re fine. Smokeless powders are non-corrosive and so are modern primers. At the very worst they may brush graphite dust into my bag.

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The difference here is, you are going to clean it and not put it up dirty.

It's your gun......do whatever floats your boat.

trackskippy said:

Ive shot quite a few guns to the point they were dirty enough that it affected function, so dont tell me I havent. Guns that are clean from the start, will run and work longer, than those that are put away dirty, or not maintained.

The only difference between us is, I clean them after every outing, shot little, or shot a lot. I prefer to know the gun will work should I need it, every time I pick it up. You seem to have other priorities.

As far as rusting overnight, youve obviously never had the pleasure of finding out that some of the ammo you had shot the day before was, in fact, corrosive, and because you got home late, and didnt feel like doing what you should have, waited until the next day to clean, and come to find a nice, bright orange coating of rust from the muzzle back through the whole insides of the action. If I had followed your lead, I could have wiped it down the night before, called it good, and put it away and forgot about it. All would have been good, right?

And it is abuse, and Ive been bitten by people who abused their guns and didnt clean and maintain them, and then I ended up buying it, and the bores were trashed. Doom on me for not making them patch the dirty bore before I bought it, and I wont buy another that that hasnt been done, if the bore was dirty when I looked down it, just because of that.

Who knows, maybe they were one of your old guns. They looked great on the outside and looked to be wiped down regularly. Too bad they seemed to had been (pretty sure they were) shot with corrosive ammo and put away dirty. $800-$1000 guns at the time, and the bores were trash.



So how often exactly do you clean them? Every other time? Every 10 times? What? What tells you you need to clean it "now"? How do you know it will work the next time you need it, and continue to do so?

Convince me a dirty and not maintained gun will work every time you might need to pick it up and count on it. As I said above, I know a clean and maintained gun will work for a good long time from the start, and any mechanical problems that could be a problem will likely have been caught during cleaning, so that I can address it. You have no idea how long that dirty gun will work, and it only gets worse, the more you dont clean it and keep pushing that down the road.


The difference here is, you are going to clean it and not put it up dirty.

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I don't speak for @CraigC, but I will offer a few points from my perspective.

First, the idea that folks who don't clean as often as you simply don't care about the reliability or lifespan is false and inflammatory and is one of the reasons you've got a few folks' dander up. It is not that we don't care, but rather that through experimentation we have determined what our guns need in order to remain functional, accurate, and free from damage.

Secondly, I - like quite a few folks - simply do not shoot corrosive ammo, and there is essentially no chance of "accidentally" doing so.

Third, it is a fine idea to look down the bore of a gun before buying it.

Finally, I know how my guns perform without cleaning because I have tried it. My tightly fitted semi-auto target .22 gets grumpy after about 400 rounds, so the action gets cleaned every 250 or so. The same gun loses accuracy if the bore is cleaned, though, so I never do it. On the other hand, my old competition revolver saw tens of thousands of rounds of light .38 Special without the slightest bit of cleaning and still demonstrated perfect reliability and sterling accuracy. I eventually cleaned it simply because it was so filthy you couldn't touch it without immediately needing a bath.

So as always, folks are welcome to pursue the hobby however they like. I have proven to my own satisfaction "all guns need to be cleaned after every use or bad things will happen" is simply not true.

.38 Special said:

I don't speak for @CraigC, but I will offer a few points from my perspective.

First, the idea that folks who don't clean as often as you simply don't care about the reliability or lifespan is false and inflammatory and is one of the reasons you've got a few folks' dander up. It is not that we don't care, but rather that through experimentation we have determined what our guns need in order to remain functional, accurate, and free from damage.

Secondly, I - like quite a few folks - simply do not shoot corrosive ammo, and there is essentially no chance of "accidentally" doing so.

Third, it is a fine idea to look down the bore of a gun before buying it.

Finally, I know how my guns perform without cleaning because I have tried it. My tightly fitted semi-auto target .22 gets grumpy after about 400 rounds, so the action gets cleaned every 250 or so. The same gun loses accuracy if the bore is cleaned, though, so I never do it. On the other hand, my old competition revolver saw tens of thousands of rounds of light .38 Special without the slightest bit of cleaning and still demonstrated perfect reliability and sterling accuracy. I eventually cleaned it simply because it was so filthy you couldn't touch it without immediately needing a bath.

So as always, folks are welcome to pursue the hobby however they like. I have proven to my own satisfaction "all guns need to be cleaned after every use or bad things will happen" is simply not true.

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First.... we'll just have to continue to disagree, as obviously we have different expectations from things, and different experiences. The "dander" thing works both ways.

Second.... although youre seeing it less and less these days, corrosive is still around, and still not always marked as such. I still have about half a case of that Egyptian 9mm SMG ammo that lit up my MAC sitting in the basement. It ended up in my truck when I went home, and the guy who brought it, didnt want it back. Want it?

Third.... if you dont check the bores, especially on any of the older guns, military or commercial, youre on your own. Dont take anyones word for it, patch it and then see what it looks like. Overcleaning is nothing compared to not cleaning with the wrong ammo, and/or in some environs with anything.

Finally....Many of my 22's in the past, and a couple I now have, seem to fall into the same numbers you have noticed problems. For me, I usually shoot a brick or two when I do shoot, so they get cleaned within your numbers anyway. Ive always cleaned the bores, never noticed accuracy degrading to the point I could notice, but I shoot from field positions with everything, and Im not shooting from a rest trying to get bugholes on the target. It would be nice, sometimes I might get close, but generally, aint happening.

My 22 revolvers (all have been S&W's) seem to be worse than the autos, and Ive always got more misfires from them once they start getting dirty. Usually a couple of hundred rounds or so. If you arent paying attention when you load, and make sure the rounds arent seated fully, even if they might "look" like they are, then the "clicks" begin, and more regularly.

As to the last part, my personal experience has been, clean guns work better, dont seem to shoot any worse, bring more money when sold/traded, and you pay less when youre buying, at least I lowball them anyway. If your experience is different, it is what it is. I guess neither of us is wrong then until we are, and if youre happy, who cares. .

trackskippy said:

The difference here is, you are going to clean it and not put it up dirty.

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Maybe. Been a busy day. Might run a brush through them and be done with it.

.38 Special said:

I don't speak for @CraigC, but I will offer a few points from my perspective.

First, the idea that folks who don't clean as often as you simply don't care about the reliability or lifespan is false and inflammatory and is one of the reasons you've got a few folks' dander up. It is not that we don't care, but rather that through experimentation we have determined what our guns need in order to remain functional, accurate, and free from damage.

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Exactly. It is inflammatory but I'm used to it. In these discussions, those that clean religiously whether they fire 1 round or 1000 seem to have this impression that anyone who doesn't do it their way is a dirty knuckledragger who doesn't bathe, lives in a ratty trailer with trashed piled waste high inside and abuses his wife, kids and his dog just like he "abuses" his guns. In reality, I probably have more money invested in guns than anyone whoever argued with me about it.

trackskippy said:

Ive shot quite a few guns to the point they were dirty enough that it affected function, so dont tell me I havent. Guns that are clean from the start, will run and work longer, than those that are put away dirty, or not maintained.

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I can't say that I've ever gotten halfway through a range session and said damn, I should've cleaned this one before I left home. Nope. I do carry patches and a pistol rod so I can swab a revolver's chambers if necessary. That's less of a big deal than having to take a leak.

trackskippy said:

The only difference between us is, I clean them after every outing, shot little, or shot a lot. I prefer to know the gun will work should I need it, every time I pick it up. You seem to have other priorities.

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Ok, if it worked when I finished shooting, why wouldn't it work the next time I picked it up? That makes no sense. I don't have other priorities, I just prefer not to waste time doing unnecessary things. I've got 200 guns and I shoot all the time. I also value my time. I even take the value of my time into consideration when I decide whether or not to handload a particular cartridge.

trackskippy said:

As far as rusting overnight, youve obviously never had the pleasure of finding out that some of the ammo you had shot the day before was, in fact, corrosive, and because you got home late, and didnt feel like doing what you should have, waited until the next day to clean, and come to find a nice, bright orange coating of rust from the muzzle back through the whole insides of the action. If I had followed your lead, I could have wiped it down the night before, called it good, and put it away and forgot about it. All would have been good, right?

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No, I can't say that I've ever shot ammo of an unknown origin before. I don't know how that happens but it doesn't happen here. I do shoot quite a bit of blackpowder and those guns get cleaned within a day or two.

trackskippy said:

And it is abuse, and Ive been bitten by people who abused their guns and didnt clean and maintain them, and then I ended up buying it, and the bores were trashed. Doom on me for not making them patch the dirty bore before I bought it, and I wont buy another that that hasnt been done, if the bore was dirty when I looked down it, just because of that.

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It's not abuse. I know you have yourself convinced that it is but it is not. I don't have a single firearm with a trashed bore. Unless you're shooting corrosive ammo or leaving your guns in a humid area, it's not gonna happen.

trackskippy said:

So how often exactly do you clean them? Every other time? Every 10 times? What? What tells you you need to clean it "now"? How do you know it will work the next time you need it, and continue to do so?

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I know when it starts to affect function that it's going to need cleaning. Guns don't just "stop" without warning. The difference is that I know and you don't. As I said, if it worked after the last shot was fired, it will work the next time. Do you really think that a firearm you've taken apart and put back together is more guaranteed to work???

trackskippy said:

Convince me a dirty and not maintained gun will work every time you might need to pick it up and count on it. As I said above, I know a clean and maintained gun will work for a good long time from the start, and any mechanical problems that could be a problem will likely have been caught during cleaning, so that I can address it. You have no idea how long that dirty gun will work, and it only gets worse, the more you dont clean it and keep pushing that down the road.

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And how often are these inspections yielding fruit? Seriously. We're not talking about race cars here. 99% of firearms are going to outlast their owners without the need for replacement parts. If I take the cylinder out of a revolver and clean it, what exactly am I going to find that I wouldn't otherwise? Same for the OP's model 65?

thunderbyrd said:

pretty simple question: i just fired 18 rounds through my SW model 65. i am probably going to fire it again on wednesday or thursday. when i got it home, i ran a bore brush through the barrel and each cylinder a few times. i put a touch of oil on the extractor rod.

so: would you wait and clean it later?

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Me? With 18 rounds through it I may do what you did. I ran 100 rounds through my 1911 .45 ACP on Friday and it had several previous outings. It was time for a through and good cleaning. However, in your case, with plans to shoot it again soon I would not worry about a full and complete cleaning.

Just My Take...
Ron

JTQ said:

By my standards you did clean it.

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This right here.

CraigC said:

Exactly. It is inflammatory but I'm used to it. In these discussions, those that clean religiously whether they fire 1 round or 1000 seem to have this impression that anyone who doesn't do it their way is a dirty knuckledragger who doesn't bathe, lives in a ratty trailer with trashed piled waste high inside and abuses his wife, kids and his dog just like he "abuses" his guns.

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Not me
I clean after every range session, but I don't overdo it. It doesn't need to be polished shiny, just the crud knocked off. Brush, brush. Wipe, wipe. Lube. Done.

That's me.

If you don't, I don't care. Doesn't bother me and I don't think you're doing anything wrong.

Since we went down the oil change road: it's kinda like modern cars don't need to have the oil changed every 3000 miles either, but they do still need to have it checked.

bdickens said:

Since we went down the oil change road: it's kinda like modern cars don't need to have the oil changed every 3000 miles either, but they do still need to have it checked.

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There was an underlying point with the oil change analogy. Nothing about engines has changed with regards to oil changes. What has changed is doctrine. While there is probably a little less carbon these days, it's not modern cars that changed, it's modern thinking. The eco-fascists have actually accomplished something positive and reversed the logic once pushed by automakers and the oil industry, this crap about changing oil every 3000miles. The need to routinely check oil levels is unrelated.

Same applies to cleaning guns. It was once necessary every range trip because of blackpowder and corrosive primers. Most folks these days are using neither. I just suggest people think about it.

As far as the military and their stringent cleaning practices, @edwardware summed it up nicely with this post:

edwardware said:

The are good reasons, both doctrinal and strategic, for the high-n-tight hair, bounce-a-dime rack, and white-glove-clean rifle in boot camp. That said I'm pretty sure the practice is a net loss for the useful life and function of firearms so cleaned.

They don't do it for the rifles, they do it to shape the people. Now that that's over. . . no need to return!

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CraigC said:

There was an underlying point with the oil change analogy. Nothing about engines has changed with regards to oil changes. What has changed is doctrine. While there is probably a little less carbon these days, it's not modern cars that changed, it's modern thinking. The eco-fascists have actually accomplished something positive and reversed the logic once pushed by automakers and the oil industry, this crap about changing oil every 3000miles. The need to routinely check oil levels is unrelated.

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That is absolutely not true. The technology has advanced dramatically. Today's engines not only burn a lot cleaner and are way more efficient, the oil itself is a lot better too.

It is actually the automakers and oil companies themselves who have been the major catalysts in extending oil change intervals, not "eco-fascists."

bdickens said:

That is absolutely not true. The technology has advanced dramatically. Today's engines not only burn a lot cleaner and are way more efficient, the oil itself is a lot better too.

It is actually the automakers and oil companies themselves who have been the major catalysts in extending oil change intervals, not "eco-fascists."

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It is true and I'm not talking about compared to the 1960's but 20yrs ago. They are cleaner but they're not that much cleaner and oil is not that much better.

bdickens said:

Since we went down the oil change road: it's kinda like modern cars don't need to have the oil changed every 3000 miles either, but they do still need to have it checked.

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I still change it. Even with today's better oil I still change it about every 3,000 miles. Same with my bike.

Ron

CraigC said:

It is true and I'm not talking about compared to the 1960's but 20yrs ago. They are cleaner but they're not that much cleaner and oil is not that much better.

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Whatever.

The information is out there for anyone who wants it. I'm not doing this Monkey Dance with you.

Over-maintainig any machine -car or gun- is wasteful, provides no real advantage and can in fact be damaging. I think we both agree on that.

Depends on whether it was "dirty" ammo or "dirty" powder.

So maybe someone could enlighten me. Motor oil aside. My outdoor range I have membership in is Kelbly's Range located in North Lawrence, Ohio. The range is home to the annual "Super Shoot" for the bench rest community. While I am not a bench rest type I always see several of them on my range outings. Now keeping in mind these guys are shooting tiny bug hole groups at 100 and 200 yards consistently and winners are separated by group sizes down to 0.01". When practicing these guys fire 3 to 5 shots and run a wet patch followed by a bore brush followed by more clean patches on a jag. Most are shooting a 6 PPC cartridge in some of the best barrel names out there. The rifles are far from inexpensive. So the question begs why do these people clean a barrel every 3 to 5 rounds on the bench? The accuracy they get speaks for itself and none I have watched ever figure skipping cleaning will somehow improve group size. Another observation is these people never weigh a powder charge but just run with a powder throw using VMD and a Harrell's powder throw. Here nor there but if cleaning is unimportant why is it that all of these people, as many as 400 entries, all are religiously constantly cleaning a high end barrel so frequently? I am not looking for an argument, just wanting to know why some of the best top names are so religious about cleaning a barrel. I already voiced my opinion on the original question so that is done. When I say religiously I mean down to inspecting the patches pushed from start to muzzle. I never thought to ask any of them but they all do it. Anyone here shooting bench rest competition in the 100 to 200 yard range?

Below is an image of practice day before competition from a few years ago. COVID squashed the last two years.


They also like to see what the wind is doing.


Ron