Milwaukee PD to replace P320s with Glocks

The_Quartermaster said:

I have a P320 6390RDS and a Glock 17 6360RDS in my possession. They are both pretty equal in terms of trigger access with the SIG being somewhat easier due to the slimmer trigger guard. I can get my finger between the holster and gun to the trigger on both; but the P320 is much easier to discharge as it doesn't require you to deactivate the trigger safety and has a shorter trigger pull. It goes without saying it is the user's responsibility to ensure there is no loose gear or clothing around the holster. Safariland duty holsters should also have the hood guard installed but I know many officers remove them.

So here is my take based on of the tomfoolery being mentioned here:

We are missing something… someone is not telling the truth, omitted some data point, the pistol had multiple failure points or the trigger was pressed. So which is it then? My thing is, if this is a problem why is the internet not blowing up with people reproducing the issue. If you know anything about the internet it is ruthless and the internet would not hesitate to expose something this huge.

Now go on OP, back to the Sig 320 bashing.

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Took 30 years for anyone to stop saying the walker trigger was safe and everyone that had an nd was just lying. I knew for a fact that the 700 that went off on me had no input from the trigger. We flipped the safety on and off a hundred times and it wouldn't do it again. I'm sure some still think "dumb kid had his finger on the trigger". I didn't. But since the gun was on the target when the safety was flipped it done nothing but give us smart comments to rib each other at get togethers. But today is widely accepted that the walker trigger could in fact fire when the safety was released.

I love the 700. I have many with walker triggers. I like the 320. I have 3. 2 without the recall done yet. And the one that was made long after. I wasn't bashing the sig. Its the only non p210/220/226/229 I have any interest in and the only reason I bought any of the three is because they were cheap...and likely dumped by agencies (2 were for sure). The gun grew on me. Its a very comfortable grip and accuracy is great. The "modular" part is gimmicky imo but I like the gun.

But to deny that issues could exist is foolish. We still have people arguing 50 years later whether or not the Pinto would blow up.

I only point out one thing. Let's assume for a moment that all the accidental discarges were all cops' fault and not pistol mulfunctions. But in many of the latter cases a certain specific pistol is involved. Strange, isn't it?

crestoncowboy said:

Took 30 years for anyone to stop saying the walker trigger was safe and everyone that had an nd was just lying. I knew for a fact that the 700 that went off on me had no input from the trigger. We flipped the safety on and off a hundred times and it wouldn't do it again. I'm sure some still think "dumb kid had his finger on the trigger". I didn't. But since the gun was on the target when the safety was flipped it done nothing but give us smart comments to rib each other at get togethers. But today is widely accepted that the walker trigger could in fact fire when the safety was released.

I love the 700. I have many with walker triggers. I like the 320. I have 3. 2 without the recall done yet. And the one that was made long after. I wasn't bashing the sig. Its the only non p210/220/226/229 I have any interest in and the only reason I bought any of the three is because they were cheap...and likely dumped by agencies (2 were for sure). The gun grew on me. Its a very comfortable grip and accuracy is great. The "modular" part is gimmicky imo but I like the gun.

But to deny that issues could exist is foolish. We still have people arguing 50 years later whether or not the Pinto would blow up.

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To say that only certain guns are capable of being being infallible is also foolish. The 320 has a shorter travel. It won't take much to get inside and hit it with the duty holster I had mentioned, and both are very popular.

This argument is brand or model bashing at it's finest of ignorance, insert 1911 here and we are off to the races again.

WrongHanded said:

You really took that comment out of context didn't you!

And now apparently you want me to go buy a P320 and do a bunch of testing on it in my house until I can prove it will discharge without something contacting the trigger? Sure. I'll get right on that.

Before I do that for you though, watch this video (good stuff starts at 1:15). You'll see that the trigger does not move noticably within the trigger guard, which means it's not a case of trigger mass carrying the trigger through it's full motion to fire. Something else is going on.



Now you prove to me that the "voluntary upgrade" completely eliminated that possibility.

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No, just proving that when it's time to prove things, you didn't want to back them up or admit defeat either.

But you wanted me to do the same and have that potentially happen? A hypocrite even!

I don't need to watch crap. I was there with Chuck Rogers of Rogers Precision taking a mallet to a live 320 gen 1 pointed in a very safe direction, nothing. We were not babying it all. Not even a primer strike of any sort.

No, YOU prove to me that it isn't safe, you make the claim, you need to prove it yourself complete with video. You do not tell others to disprove when you refuse to do the same yourself.

I do find it funny though, that you don't own one yet do indeed have a dog in this fight with Sig. lol, we are done and this is an integrity check. Good day.

9mmepiphany said:

In other words, there are no proven cases of SIG 320s discharging by themselves after the factory upgrade

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Proof is an interesting word. I'm just saying that if evidence exists which might be construed as proof, Sig Sauer will settle with the plaintiff and an NDA will prevent that evidence from becoming proof. How long did Remington continue to sell the 700 after such evidence emerged? They knew back in 1947 that the firearm needed a redesign. There are 130,000 pages of documents that conform that they hid the truth until they finally settled in 2014. And when they settled with Richard Barber whose son was killed by one of their defective rifles, he was gagged by a NDA. but the truth came out anyways. Here's a little memory refresher on that drama.

And now we have Thomas Ahern, a SWAT team Lt who asserts that his firearm discharged in the holster in front of 6 witnesses while inside an armored vehicle. I'm not saying that there's a zero percent chance that these 7 law enforcement officers are somehow colluding with one another, but I'd like to think that it's pretty close to 0%. Ahern seems like a standup guy.


Cambridge police Lt. Thomas Ahern filed a civil suit in federal court in Boston against gun maker Sig Sauer and the city of Cambridge after his department-issued P320 fired on its own in May 2019 while he was in the department's SWAT team van with six other officers.
Miraculously, no one was hit by the bullet, which ricocheted around inside the vehicle.

So, I know Sig makes great guns and I'd be happy to have a P229 or P226 but there's no way I'd buy a P320 with all of this evidence (but not necessarily proof) piling up. I haven't had any problems with my 19x and so I certainly wouldn't opt to start carrying a 320 now instead of that gun. It has been so perfectly flawless that I really can't even justify buying the P229. I'd probably buy a second 19x first. As the evidence mounts, I think it's going to become clear that the government erred in choosing the P320 over the 19x even if there truly were compelling reasons to do so.

crestoncowboy said:

A p series ruger can take more abuse than the most "tested" (frozen, sunk in salt water, fired underwater, chemically degreased, thrown from choppers etc etc etc) gun in modern history?

And breaks down more?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I'll never sell or trade my department approved p97 that I carried for many years..or any other p series I own.. but I wouldn't compare it to a Glock for durability or ease of maintenance (ive replaced worn barrel/locking links). Ruger even ships an adapter for some of their guns to use the far superior despite being far cheaper Glock mags. Lol. Several companies do. Nobody ever shipped an adapter for "ruger mags" in their own gun.

Just the added lining up of the barrel link to reassemble and the lower the ejector to remove the slide (or break it) make the Glock the easier choice for non gun people.

I'll add that I was a Glock resister myself. I went from the p97DC to a Beretta (96 vertec then 96), then the Sig 226. Eventually Glock became mandated and a buddy carried a 20. I liked the 10mm and bought one. Still didn't get another glock until 2010 or so but now its my first choice for any serious use. For fun I still prefer the 226/220 or Beretta 92/96 though.

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People been trying to Kill the Ruger P series since 1987. You can research the tortures that have been done to the design.. pretty legendary stuff that would kill most Glocks. I dont get caught up in silly tests like helo drops and arctic temperatures useing dry ice and what not. Thats youtube garbage to get clicks. People fall for all sorts of this type of thing for many, many years and will continue to do so be it firearms or anything else. Its the modern infomercials showing cheap kitchen knives cutting through aluminum cans because... I guess there are people eating cans? Been into firearms since the early 80s and I have never felt the need to freeze a pistol in a solid block of ice, drag/run over it with a tank, throw it from an airplane etc. etc. It was a gimmick then and is a gimmick now. People can rag on the Ruger P 9mms but they dont have parts breakage or need replacement due to wear. They just run forever for the most part.

P97 doesnt have a barrel link so I dont know what your are refering to there. P series had three iterations of barel links throught the years before they went linkless.

Not sure why you think the disasembly/reasambly is so difficult as my 10 year old can do it just fine but whatever.

Glock magazines are popular because they are cheap and common (same for Glocks). There is nothing magical about them. The magazine catches get chewed up and the steel feedlips seperate from the polymer cover... Meanwhile a Good Mecgar Ruger P mag lasts practically forever. But hey... whatever again.

You have "Glock brain" pretty bad IMO but its pretty common with a lot of people these days. Marketing tactics are designed to have that effect.

Personally I like the Glock design fine. I am also not a Sig hater by any means. Making excuses for lousy bandaid approaches to designs and people sticking their heads in the sand pretending there is not a problem is kinda dumb though. As is accusing anyone who has a ND of being a lier participating in a grand conspiracy. I guess everyone who says something someone doesnt like is a Lier in this modern culture.

No need for people to get in a hissy fit over this stuff. In the end Sig will fix the design once they get sick of settling lawsuits and people stop buying their new offerings. Right now the P320 has a pretty big black cloud over it so I expect we will see a recall pretty soon.

I dont recommend the P320s but I dont recommend Glocks either. Most people these days practice more caution with their phones than they do a firearm and neither one of them have enough safety built into the design IMO. They are not "slob" proof enough. For your uber "tactical Operator" wannabe types they can work (the glock anyways) but for the majority of gun owners carrying them with a round in the chamber is pretty shakey. If LE is having NDs then civilian NDs are a probability as well.

Being a fan of a design is great and all but people need to be responsible about advocating things. I am a huge fan of the Tokarev and even use one in my carry rotation. However... I practically never advocate people carry them unless they truely understand the design and the safety issues involved. There is no "one gun" for everyone. What works for LE does not equate to what works for Military. Same goes for civilian carry. Then experience with firearms comes into play as well as how much they "train". Your average CCW holder is not going to base their entire life around "Training" and never will. People have busy lives ... work.. Kids..hobbies etc..etc. Just telling them to "train" more doesnt solve anything. Far to many variables to consider.

starling said:

Not sure why you think the disasembly/reasambly is so difficult as my 10 year old can do it just fine but whatever.

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I don't find it difficult. I build things for a living. But ive seen struggles with them. And ive seen struggles with remembering to push the extractor down and the slide hangs up. I didn't say it was all that difficult, just extra steps for officers who really don't care. For anyone who likes guns is no big deal. Just look at the fuss about the mk 1 and 2 and 22/45. Lol. Great guns too

Our county never had the 9mm p series approved. Only the 40 and 45 were approved.



There is a simple days shooting and cleaning.....for my "Glock brain". I believe I'd be fine carrying the 320 as well. But I still don't say that there isnt an issue. And if I did feel the gun was a death trap I wouldn't want to be forced to carry one.


To say the p series is tougher than a Glock is pretty tough. 100k+ round glocks are out there and easy to find. Not even rare. Even in high pressure 10mm and 357 sig.

I was reading about and following guns in the 80s as well. Wasn't shooting until the 90s though. I believe seeing die hard 2 actually led to my Glock hate. Lol

rust collector said:

Assume the worst and keep muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

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A good idea, but not always possible, particularly if we include while it's in the holster.

I didn't read the 60+ post going back and forth about the P320 issues.
If Sig was a truly stand up and make it right company, they would replace all of the 320s that are out there!
They are cheap to produce polymer pistols.

I can't blame Milwaukee PD for replacing them with Glocks. Three discharges are 3 to many.

Well I don't have a Sig and I don't have a Glock so I'll just sit back and watch the forum food fight..........

I really like Quartermaster’s passion!

I owned a p320 and didn’t like it and I really didn’t like the over complicated engineering. Less parts can do the same job and has proven reliable in other designs.

I’ve learned over the years not to passionately defend anyone or anything unless you know the entire story. We don’t know everything about every p320 such as tolerance stacking, dirt, too much lube, repeated impacts from different angles in a specific order, etc. There’s lots of guns being put through thousands of different conditions daily.

Seem to recall outrage over the 'pull the trigger to fieldstrip' issue with Glocks, and beaucoup unintended discharges.
Soooooo, fieldstrip without first pulling the trigger became a selling/safety issue.
I'm not sure what else SIG changed internally, but the post recall triggers are a hollow U, while the older ones were solid. Have to suspect at least some of the issue was the mass of the trigger was great enough, when struck just wrong from the rear, to move the trigger due to inertia. BTW, the flippy-do thing in Glock triggers is there for the same reason.
It would seem to me, that, if there really is an issue, it ought to be repeatable and provable. At this point, that does not seem to be the case.
In any case, no hurry to part with any of my SIGs or Glocks.
Moon

halfmoonclip said:

Seem to recall outrage over the 'pull the trigger to fieldstrip' issue with Glocks, and beaucoup unintended discharges.
Soooooo, fieldstrip without first pulling the trigger became a selling/safety issue.
I'm not sure what else SIG changed internally, but the post recall triggers are a hollow U, while the older ones were solid. Have to suspect at least some of the issue was the mass of the trigger was great enough, when struck just wrong from the rear, to move the trigger due to inertia. BTW, the flippy-do thing in Glock triggers is there for the same reason.
It would seem to me, that, if there really is an issue, it ought to be repeatable and provable. At this point, that does not seem to be the case.
In any case, no hurry to part with any of my SIGs or Glocks.
Moon

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Its most likely a quality control issue of some type. Could be tolerances or bad parts batch and the steel is soft...or a spring. Just test your firearm. Maybe put it in a holster unchambered with a loaded magazine (for weight) and do some jumpropes. I dont wish bad things to happen to anyone. NDs are a nightmare event.

Like the other poster said, I would be happy to pick one up dirt cheap as a police turn-in if they start flooding the market.

That's how I got a Ruger P series, GLock 22, and Sig P series.

9mmepiphany said:

That's really the bottom line

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But again, the walker trigger wasn't repeatable. And it took over 50 years for Remington to admit issues. Even though . The gun that went off on me is still in use. Re- barreled twice. Never went off again when the safety was flipped. Still has the same trigger. Great trigger. Lol

The designer of the trigger himself said it was unsafe in the 40s. And suggested a change that was rejected due to cost. Remington buried that for 60 years. Despite litigation several times (and a couple deaths) and ambulance chasers trying to find one rifle that was "repeatable". It just wasn't repeatable.

So sometimes "repeatable and provable" just isn't the bottom line.

And sig isn't the only one. I have a few guns that are recalled. A Beretta neos, several 700s. Two 320s. All of which I like just fine. I'm a 20 year employee at a nearly billion dollar revenue manufacturing facility. Things happen. We deny them being our fault, then we make changes. In today's world that's how it works. What's shocking to me is that Remington, after the first death, didn't change things. We have shut down entire factories because of one alleged problem. Sometimes for days. And then implemented changes (or said "they are full of it" and then said we implemented changes and the problems went away. Lol. Then call it "quality control" or "upgraded"

The things we manufacture don't really have the ability to kill people though, so the financial hit isn't as big. But having to eat millions of dollars of product and admit you screwed it up is tough too

Regarding SIG quality control, I have swapped barrels, slides, FCG, with utter impunity. Everything has fit and functioned without a problem. The only personal experience with small parts has been adding a safety to several 365s, and those fit and functioned perfectly.
Do some bad ones get out the door? When you make a gigaton of anything, of course, stuff will happen.

Over the years, there have been reported cases of detonation using Bullseye powder in too small a quantity. A friend's M60 lost its topstrap and half cylinder to such an event with Bullseye reloads; Smith said a double charge wouldn't blow up the gun, and a triple wouldn't fit. My own suspicion was too light a charge. In any case, the event has never been duplicated in a lab. I still have 3lbs of Bullseye in the shop, and a bunch of Bullseye reloads.
So yeah, stuff happens. I remain skeptical that it happens very much, in the case of the P320. Pilot error and mendacity are more likely culprits.
Moon

WrongHanded said:

And I suspect that becoming chief in some big city departments is more about playing politics than understanding equipment.

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I suspect you are right of they would be destroying 2000 pistols instead of trading them to allow them to continue to fire themselves without human intervention…

kje54 said:

Well I don't have a Sig and I don't have a Glock so I'll just sit back and watch the forum food fight..........

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I own both. so I can sling and catch I suppose.


it’s strange that I have zero problems finding video evidence of Glocks going off in holsters. I have not seen a single video of a Sig doing same though.

WrongHanded said:

Thinking about it, that would be pretty good press for Glock. Destroying thousands of guns made by a competitor and traded to them by a police department because they're "faulty". On camera and in the interest of "public safety". Pretty provocative stuff.

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Glock was quite instrumental in the passing of the Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) as they proved that previous government owned guns were used in crimes. All because of their trade in practices.