The Commie Gun Theory

For me, shooting the commie guns is like eating a cheap steak. Why bother?

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I think a slightly better analogy would be to substitute word "wine" or "beer" for the the word "steak".

Once you have had GOOD wine or beer, you tend to avoid the other stuff like the plague. Commie guns are the same way. Yeah, they go bang all the time, but so what?

I've played with high dollar ARs and FALs. Always return to my AK. Not everyone needs a mercedes Benz to be happy in life, some of us prefer a good pickup.

Fires a bigger round, with more than acceptable accuracy and will do it every single time I pull the trigger.

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I guess "acceptable accuracy" is the issue. Sure, the commie guns have acceptable accuracy for man-sized targets out to 4-500 yards.

Ever tried to shoot a prairie dog at 300+ yards with an AK?

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I know several folks who hunt varmits with AR's. None that hunt varmits with AKs.

Which makes me wonder why we send our boys to war with a really nive varmit rifle. But that's another thread.

Don't get me wrong. I like commie guns. But they're not "better" than other guns. They're just great, economical guns within their accuracy parameters.

I like both the AR and the AK, alot actually. I merely prefer the AK. Low cost, competitive performance. The AR, AK and whatever else are equal in my mind.

*snort* Cheap Steak???

Give me a break. I use my cheap steak in 3gun to kick the living crap out of many rifle shooters, shooters who I'm willing to bet would be able to kick the living crap out of about 95% of the rifle shooters on this board in any sort of timed accuracy test. I use a "commie" Vepr K in matches against all sorts of really good shooters, shooting really good American made guns, and my "cheap" gun manages to consistently keep me near the top of every rifle stage. And that is against other competition guys, against regular shooters who screw around at the range occasionally there is no comparison whatsoever.

So much for the cheap steak analogy. If my commie guns were as crappy as some people this board make them out to be, then no matter how skilled I was, I would never be able to compete. (now I must clarify that this is at a state level, and at the national level there are guys on this board like Zak Smith or Alex Wakal who would pummel me)

I own lots of different guns. I've owned a few ARs, and I've built my own ARs. I also love FALs. Now I'm a dealer and have access to all sorts of cool stuff. Russian guns are still some of my favorites. They tend to be ugly, blocky, rough, but very effective.

And all conjecture aside, the reason Russian guns cost so much less is that A. new production guns are made by skilled laborers who make a whole lot less than their American counterparts. B. Surplus guns are surplus guns and by their nature are cheap.

If an American company were to make a new production SKS it would either cost $800+ or it would have so many cost saving bits and parts on it that it would be a hunk of garbage.

Can't beat the bang for the buck you get out of these mil-surp communist block rifles. In my 5 shot groupings my M48 shoots quarter to dime sized groupings. The ammo is cheap, can get nearly a 1,000 rounds for just over $100. I'm looking right now at a 91/30 PU sniper, trying to find a semi tack driver K.98 that I can turn into a Sniper, and have a road trip planned to go to the CMP store in Ohio to take a look at the Springfields. 91/30 runs about $400, Springfield $400, and the K.98 that has shot the best for me so far is about $175. Compare that to some of the rifles out there now and for one of those you could get all 3 of the rifles I'm looking for

One of my greatest mistakes was selling my M48 to buy a K98, Jay. I am seriously considering selling the K98 to buy another M48, I loved it so much.

And a big +1 on the American companies making Commie guns, and on Correia's analysis of why they are cheap.

Anybody who thinks my rifle is junk is welcome to buy me a better one.

Anyone who doubts the accuracy of commie guns is welcome to place a valuble object a few hundred yards downrange and discover how accurate they are.

Betcha that 5.45x39 would make short work of an expensive laptop or LCD TV.

I'd be willing to put one of my 8mm rounds up against a lap top

And I don't think i'd sell my M48, thing shootsbetter then me lol

I guess I should put it this way:

I got my M1's and M1A back when I could afford them (before I got married). I got more value out of my money in them that I could have gotten from one of the communist bloc rifles. Everyone has their own perception of value.

Ty

For everyone who says commie surplus=bad/inacurrate/nearly useless/whatever stuff......okay, so you might own a tack-driving weapon--that's your perogative. I'd rather have something that I can have fun with, afford not to clean every day, and will be very useful in a SHTF scenario. I'd rather lug around my SKS than try to master the laws of physics for any american rifle. Not only are they easier on the pocketbook, they will suffice for those of us who aren't in shooting matches on a regular basis. Just my few cents worth, gotta put my flame suit on......

Another thing I thought about. I do have one real good reason for the American guns over the commie guns, and that is they simply fit me better. The Yugo SKS and M48 aren't too bad, but all the others (newer) just are too dang small.

The older ones aren't a problem, the Mosins, though.

I love combloc guns.

First I collected the comblocs:sks, M48, V24,sks,sks. Then I reallized .375 HH wasn't available in combloc surplus (did get a CZ). So I covered the long distance accuracy niche with a very expensive (combloc standards) Winchester. Got the lever bug for a .44 mag. Decided there was little room left to store more fine rifles, so I'd better disriminmate for unfilled abillities. Mosin snuck in through a little crack in the door I think .

And sure enough, came full circle to go for the VEPR group buy.

Admitted I was powerless over great rifles......

For me, shooting the commie guns is like eating a cheap steak. Why bother?

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Because cheap steak is way better than no steak at all...

In 2003, I wanted an EBR, really liked a friend's Bushmaster 16" XM-15, but priced them and couldn't afford one due to family medical bills (since they were pushing close to a grand in price). But I could, just barely, swing a $379 SAR-1. So my choice was, the eastern-bloc gun, or nothing. Guess what I chose...

and I really, really like it. AR's are neat (and I'd still like to have one someday) but a SAR-1 will give you about 90% of the capability at moderate ranges for a fraction of the price.

In Kali I can't get an AR so it's a moot point (like a cows opinions.) ha ha. anyway. I got the SU16 instead and called it good. But I really want an M1A. But the price is outrageous!!! $1400 is more than I want to pay for a rifle. So, I got an SKS. I like it, but I still want that M1A.

I know there's got to be a bunch of better shots than me, but I can put rnds through the same whole with my sks at 50 yds free standing. I can almost thread a needle with my Winchester 26" .44. Those commie guns are pretty good by anyone's standards. Most people I know shoot the thing like it was a "manual automatic". Aim and slow squeeze puts it on target for me. Got 2 Winchesters, a Rem '06 and 5 sks's. Wouldn't part with any.
kid

Cheap steak aint always bad steak There's a little diner around here that sells a great steak about 12oz for $5. Same thing goes for commie guns.

I'll jump in with Armoredman and others in that having a gun you can afford beats not having a better one. And no, not everyone can just save a little longer and buy the better gun.

Also, despite what's written in gun rags, not every gun is 1 MOA or better, sorry, just isn't true. In fact a lot of new Remchesters are real dogs. Not to mention most (yes most) gun owners can't shoot 1 MOA even if their rifle can. I'm all for having a gun that can outshoot you, but it's really not necessary.

Commie guns get a bad rap for accuracy. Not all commie guns are the same, plus a LOT of this reputation was gotten from people shooting Wolf ammo and questionable surplus ammo. No, you're not going to win any matches at Camp Perry with a 90 year old Mosin Nagant shooting surplus or Wolf ammo. But you won't win with an A2 or A3 20" standard AR shooting surplus ammo either. Customized, accuratized guns fall into the custom gun category (ok, maybe semi-custom production) and shouldn't be compared to mil-spec guns. A 24" varminter or Camp Perry competition gun will run circles around a standard AR.

Now, those milsurp guns with GOOD ammo (such as the Barnaul or Silver/Brown Bear or S&B ammo) can often shoot just as well as any other average battle rifle, or even new commercial bolt gun out there. There are some exceptions, like the various sniper rifles, Finn rifles and the Swiss surplus rifles which will outshoot most commercial production bolt guns.

So, why not get that $70 Mosin or $100 Mauser as a first (or in some cases only) gun? 7.62x54R is downright cheap, even for the Barnaul and "Bear" hunting ammo, and not bad for S&B hunting ammo. 8mm for the Mausers is darn near being given away in surplus ammo, so there's plenty to practice with, and hunting ammo isn't expensive.

I know a lot of people have the dream of repelling a SWAT assault and holding off a light infantry platoon, and I know I'm shooting a sacred cow here, but it's just not likely, no matter what weapon you own. An AK or even an SKS can handle any self-defense situation you're likely to have. Yeah they're accurate to about 300 meters and that's it (SKSs a little further). But do you really think you're going to get into 600 meter firefights on the way to Blockbuster?

If you can afford more expensive guns, go for it.

But guys who can't don't need to feel that they're doomed to never be able to fell a deer because they use a Mosin or Enfield rather than a Weatherby. They needn't feel they they are going to be slaughtered in their beds by alien paratroopers because they pack an SKS rather than an AR/FAL/M1A.

Commie (and other surplus guns) may not be better but they are better values.

Amen to that, Magnum !

I think it's incorrect to characterize the SKS and AK-47 as "better guns" than their U.S. counterparts. Better Value, certainly. I have Mosins, SKS's, an M48 as well as an M1 Garand and an '03 Springfield. The ComBloc stuff is sturdy and reliable to be sure, but then so are my U.S. rifles. The only failure I've experienced has been some shortstroking with the SKS. The U.S. milsurps surpass the Commie firearms when it comes to fit and finish, no contest. And, in my experience, my U.S. rifles are consistently more accurate than their ComBloc counterparts. YMMV.

im going to propose a theory (im not sayin that i agree with it either)that probably wont be too popular but ill do it anyways

for the price and quality you get, old commie guns are better then american guns
example: Ar-15 great gun for 900$ Ak-47 better gun 350$
M-1 Garand great gun for 400$ SKS better gun (cheaper ammo) for 150$

i wanna talk about all combloc guns from makarovs to ROMAK-3s
remember this is just a theory not a fact so agree with it or disagree with it just put why
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LOL
AK better than an AR15 Thats funny. AK's are very reliable bullet hoses they are not rifles. They shoot minute of basket ball at 100 yards. Most AR15's are between .5 and 1.5 moa depending on barrel configuration. The AR15 is much easier to shoot well with far better sights and controls (safety, bolt stop mag release ext)

Now for the SKS being compared to an M1 garand bull crap. The SKS is like the AK on ok reliable but not too accurate carbine. The M1 is a battle rifle with far greater range and accuracy with equal reliability.
Pat

know a lot of people have the dream of repelling a SWAT assault and holding off a light infantry platoon, and I know I'm shooting a sacred cow here, but it's just not likely, no matter what weapon you own. An AK or even an SKS can handle any self-defense situation you're likely to have. Yeah they're accurate to about 300 meters and that's it (SKSs a little further). But do you really think you're going to get into 600 meter firefights on the way to Blockbuster?

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Try 150 to 200 yards in average hands for the AK unless its configured with better sights. SKS maybe 250.

As for the guns shooting better than you. The rifle is an extension of you not an independant part. The better it shoots the better you will shoot and vice versa. And most shooters should be able to group 1 moa at 100 yards from a prone position.
Pat

One must consider economics in the Price

When looking at the cost of the cheap commie guns versus the expensive American guns one must still consider the economics of the country of origin in their price.

The surplus commie guns were mostly built by eastern European peasants who were getting paid $30.00 a week and didn't have much in the way of possesions, or niceties.

The 900 dollar AR was assembled in an American Shop, Machines by American Machinists and designed by American engineers each making $20-$30 per hour. This is really the reason the western stuff is so much more expensive. Americans earn much more, and live a more luxurious life. You can't have that and a $200 quality AR.

I mean come on, this is why all the manufacturing jobs are leaving America. Americans have grown accustomed to a more luxurious lifestyle, which costs money. Chinese and Indians are just happy to have a job so they can keep their families fed. They will work 2X for 1/3 the cost. This allows the products they produce to totally undercut the American produced items.

It is a problem that we (Americans) feed ourselves when we go out and buy the lowest cost item out there. We created the market for the low cost items that is costing us all our manufacturing jobs.

So when the guy assembling the cheap AK/SKS was pedaling home on his 30 year bicycle to his small little apartment that his entire family is living in just happy to taking dinner home. The American that assembles the expensive M1A, AR-15 is driving his brand new Camaro home to his brand new 2000 square foot house and parks next to his brand new bass boat.

Pretty soon we will be buying the cheap Camaros and bass boats that are built in China and shipped over here and touting how much better they are for the money. The houses, heck, they already are foriegn manufactured, I dare any you to find someone on a modern housing construction site swinging a hammer that speaks english.

Who knows, maybe in 100-200 years we will providing India and China with extra cheap labor just so we can keep our families fed. Kind of a tuff situation when you think about it. When you buy the cheap stuff, you really kind of support putting an American out of work. But the cheap stuff is just so good for the money we do it anyway. Which is why Wal-mart et al. have pretty much decimated the old mom and pop shop way of life.