i drew on someone today. que obligatory critique. (pardon the detail please)

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Bobarino

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one hour ago: driving to work, someone takes a right from a side street right in front of me. and i mean RIGHT in front of me. he didn't stop at his sign and dang near creamed me. i slammed on the brakes and avoided the accident, tires screeching and all. i throw up my hands in a "why me?!" fashion out of frustration. (nearly getting creamed seems to be my new hobby) i put my hand on my forehead and shake my head, and slap myself on the head in a "stupid stupid stupid" fashion.* that was apparently enough. (mind you i made no gestures at or to this guy) the guy slams on his brakes again and stops dead in the middle of the street. he brakes hard like he's trying to get me to hit him, but i keep plenty of distance like a good kid is supposed to and stop in plenty of time. his car is now eight feet in front of mine and i have no exits. cars behind me and curbs to both sides.

i saw his backup lights flash. he's put his car in park and the door opened. yellow fades to red. one more scan for exits. none. he gets out arms a flyin', voice a cursin', loud. he's still by his door though. i thought, ok, he just needs a good yell. fine. i don't react at all. just sit there. then he started to approach on the quickstep. arms still flying and cursing. i leaned forward, drew and pointed my pistol at him. he continued to approach still yelling, all the way to my window. i yell, "get back, get back in your vehicle!" he didn't. he wanted to yell some more. fine. i kept the pistol pointed at him. he must have seen it at this point. he must not have before because he changed from cursing and yelling to apologizing, still very angry though, telling me that he didn't see me. one last "i'm sorry, damn." from him. i crack the window and say, "fine, just watch. you could hurt someone.* go back to your vehicle." he walks away saying to himself "you pull a gun? whats your license plate?". he drives off, i take the first right and take a different route than he does.

after a few blocks and i calm down, i call the police to report the incident.** i begin to tell them the story and they ask if i'm driving XX vehicle. i say yes. they say oh yeah, he already called. i'm going to connect you to the officer they spoke to. i told her*** what heppened and she said, yep, thats exactly what he said only he left out the slamming on the brakes in the middle of the street part. and the approaching the vehicle cursing part (he claimed to have been coming to appologize. the officer didn't buy it). and the he didn't stop at his sign and almost ran into me part. she confirmed that he also said i didn't roll down my window until he "apologized" and he quoted verbatim what i said. he also had my license plate incorrect.

the officer said i was in the right. i didn't get out and confront him, i kept my windows up and attempted to get him to leave, didn't escalate the situation. she had already told him that she felt he was in wrong and i had a right to defend myself, and i have nothing to worry about. she said she was glad i called to tell what happened and report him and since our stories were the same, there was no need to make/take statements and i have nothing to worry about.

some things i'm reflecting on. when the time comes that you feel you have to, drawing from concealment even while seated in a car is no problem. you'll just do it. quicker than you think. either time slows, or your thoughts and reactions speed up. don't know which, maybe both.

i called the police to report the situation based on others' advice that i read here on the THR. 'tis better to call right away and tell your side than to get a visit from the police later and explain a "man with a gun" report.

some people are just dumb. this guy had a wife and kid in a baby seat in the car and didn't stop or even look for traffic when he was supposed, nearly caused a wreck, tried to cause another wreck and then tried to start a fight over it. i'm sure darwin will visit him someday. i'm glad it wasn't today.

i didn't think about it at the time, but i kept my finger off the trigger the whole time. i really couldn't aim. my pistol was held in front of my chest, on the target as near as i could tell.

i often wondered, as did/do many people here on THR, when you'll know its time to draw. well, you'll know and you won't think twice about it.

my main thoughts were, "oh please don't let him escalate this any further. please don't make me have to defend myself. how can i get out of this?"

i feel a bit like a failure. i never wanted to draw on anyone. it was like a goal. i failed, but that's why i carry a gun, just in case.

* = things i probably did wrong. even though i made no gestures at/towards this guy ( i know carrying a gun means i don't get to flip people off on the road etc), he interpretted my gestures as being directed towards him and that was enough to set him off. while i know not to piss people off intentionally, you never know what will piss someone off. but i also think i should not have to be a slave to paranoia in my car and not do anything but breathe. driving is frustrating sometimes and rolling your eyes, slapping your forehead etc, is bound to happen. i probably should have left well enough alone and not gave him the mini-lecture about possibly hurting someone. a simple "get away" probably would have sufficed.

** = things i probably did right. again. advice read here on THR paid off. if you have an incident, call and report it. it worked out exactly like many people said it would. he reported someone pulled a gun on him for no reason. :rolleyes: but even the police didn't buy it. be truthful and honest and more important, be righteous. make DANG sure its time to draw. but like i said, you'll know.

*** = the same officer that came to my house and took the report when my car got stolen a few months ago. she remembered me. she knows i'm just an average guy, not a trouble maker or anything. when my story matched his, she knew i wasn't lying. i think that helps establish me as one of the good guys and an honest guy with the police, or at least this officer.

ok, thanks for reading this far and fire away. what could i have done better or worse?

Bobby
 
Well, I don't think I would have pointed my gun at the guy as long as he appeared unarmed and I was in the relative safety of my car with the windows up. But I would have definitely had it out in my lap or something.

I guess all's well that ends well.
 
A+

I give you an 'A+'
Everyone went home healthy.
No legal repercussions.
Your actions may not have been perfect, but the final result was.
Good going, and thanks for sharing so others can learn.
 
It is indeed fortunate that all turned out well. Some other LE agencies in western Washington would have arrested you for second degree assault. I am glad this was not the case in Pierce County. Given that he was approaching your vehicle not visibly armed and with both hands clearly visible from your account, I am not sure that I would have considered this a 'deadly force' situation sufficient to warrant drawing down on the person. I very likely would have been holding my handgun in my lap below the level of the windows ready for deployment if the situation suddenly changed to one of deadly force.

Something to ponder is that when you were pointing your handgun at him, had you escalated the situation and become the aggressor threatening deadly force, and would he have been justified in drawing himself and shooting you? Some very reasonable arguments on that could be made, and noting that you were alone in the car, and he had a witness in his car, from a legal standpoint, things could have gone quite badly for you.

But I was not there, and it is easy to Monday morning quarterback these situations. Everyone drove away in one piece and you are not inside of a jail cell. A win-win, in my book.
 
I wasn't gonna respond to this one, Bobby ... I too live in Western Washington, and we had a case similar to yours in our community within the past few weeks. The last I heard, the individual who drew his handgun is still being charged.

As MillCreek noted, if his hands were in plain sight ... you (relatively) secure in your vehicle ... and he had a wife and young child in his car -- did you notice this right off? ... with other cars around and plenty of witnesses presumably available ...

While I concede that a visibly out-of-control road rager rapidly approaching your car is cause for immediate and extreme concern, I'm thinking that drawing, and keeping your hand on your pistol -- at your side or in your lap out of his view -- may have been all you needed to do until he demonstrated intent to get physical or you attempted to calm him down a bit. Often these maniacal knuckleheads just need to vent their misplaced anger for a couple minutes and will go on their way -- in which case, you still should call the police and report the incident.

I think you were lucky that you weren't charged. You were also lucky that he was apparently not packing, because your display of a firearm might have given an angry man cause to produce his own weapon, with bad results.

I know of at least two situations similar to this one your describe that occurred in W. WA and the guys who drew handguns lost their CPLs for good (and in one of the incidents, the other participant in a road rage incident also drew a pistol -- so both involved lost their CPLs).
 
Praise the Lord it Worked Out--No one Dead or Injured!

Every time I strap on my guns to go out, I literally pray that I will NEVER have to draw them.

I can not sit here and second-guess what you did right or could have done better. I wasn't there. For certain, you did it sufficiently well that the LE was satisfied. I think we ALL benefit from reading about issues like this. Thank-you for sharing.

PLT it all worked out in the end!

Doc2005
 
Although it turned out all right (this time) I don't think I would have drawn on him just because he's yelling, cursing, and waving his arms around. I probably would have just sat there without giving any response whatsoever unless and until he actually did something that required my use of lethal force-something like trying to break my window with a rock, tireiron, etc. As long as he's unarmed it doesn't matter what he does as long as he can't get to me or lay a hand on me. Until then, my firearm remains concealed.

Just an opinion, yours may vary. :)
 
I just took my CHL class 2 weeks ago and don't have my liscense yet, so I feel I don't have a real say so here (at least not from any firsthand experience), but, it was drilled into us by the firearms instructor that unless the aggressor showed an immediate threat of physical or lethal force to myself or another citizen I could not draw on him. Also, he pointed out that in public you have the responsibility to leave the area, unless you're cornered with no means of escape. I can agree it may seem like an immediate threat with someone approaching your car in a fit of road rage, however, I think I would not have drawn unless he had some sort of weapon in his hand or was swinging or trying to get in my car at me, etc... But, I may not really know untill i find myself in a similar situation, so I'm not trying to preach here. Glad it all ended well. -Nathan
 
i believe were i in your situation i would haver refrained from the gestures(i know the weren't vulgar etc but they do inflame. i also know that sometimes those things just happen before you can stop them.)

next i think i would have drawn two weapons on this dude. the first, my pistol but kept out of sight and ready. the other i would have shown him in full view, the cell phone, thumb dialing 911. this way you would have been the first to report the incident and in lethal force were next on the agenda you would have been in a legally better position as you were on the phone to emergency services pleading for help. sometimes just seeing you dialing 911 will discourage the person.

but i am glad everything turned out well, at least so far. sometimes these things can take a tailspin a week later. suppose this guy goes to the DA's office? or maybe has some political pull. hope everything stays OK.
 
in retrospect, it may have been wiser to have gun at the ready but not point it at the aggressor. hindsight is always 20/20. my thinking at the time was, why wait until he gets the drop on me? let him know that attacks on my person will be met with force and hopefully he will realize that and turn around and leave. it looked to me like he had every intention of starting of a fight. when he got out, i figured he just wanted to yell at me and thats fine. no harm. it was when he aggressively began approaching still cursing and making aggresive gestures that i drew. if the guy was dumb enough to disregard the safety of his family in his own car, i'm have my doubts that he cared much about mine. yes he was unarmed, but there quite the disparity of force. i'm 6'2" and 155lbs. he was about 6" and 220 or so i would guess. yes i was in the relative safety of my car and it was going to stay that way.

i don't think i escalated the situation. (mind you this is my perspective) i stayed calm and said get back, get back in your car. no provocation, no threats of firing, just get away from me.

as far as the police are concerned, the guy dug his own grave. he called and reported himself as being the aggressor which more or less justifeid me before i even called. the officer i spoke to even said she didn't buy the guy's random pulling of a gun on him.

i didn't notice the wife and kid until they drove away. i don't think that would have changed things though if i had seen them before. i really don't know for sure though.

i appreciate the input. especially from Old Dog. believe me, if i thought it was at all against the law to draw, or feared i would be arrested and charged and lose my permit, i would not have drawn but i did feel threatened and justified. honestly those things didn't cross my mind at the very moment. if they did, there probably wouldn't have been justification to draw. all that was on my mind was, "there is an aggressor that looks to have designs on atttacking you. prepare for an attack."

man, situations like this are horribly complicated. i have a headache from clinching my jaw all morning.

Bobby
 
From The Book of Two Guns by Tiger McKee (excellent read):

"You must assume that everyone is armed. If they are near you then they have opportunity. If you assume they are armed then they have the ability. If they display intent then you should be ready to respond with aggressive action."

Most people, when pissed off at someone else on the road, honk their horns or flip the bird. Some may use foul language. A very small but dangerous minority decide to get out of their vehicles.

At this point, who knows? He cared enough about the conflict to try to get you to rear-end his car, and enough about it to stop in the middle of the road, and enough about it to approach your car. He could have a pistol in his waistband, for all you knew. And then it would have been a contest as to who could draw faster.

I agree with Old Dog, then. A smarter move in the future would be a partial draw to a concealed area. If he steps it up even further (physical violence), then you have an advantage. If he doesn't, everyone just drives away.
 
Worked out good.

And that's another lesson for everyone to remember that the cell phone and the carry weapon are never to be apart.

It could very well have been a harder story if the guy had sounded more convincing.

First one on the phone gets to set the tone for the story.

Glad your guy sounded like the goof he was.
 
Would have had my weapon out in my lap, would have been dialing weak handed the cell phone. You never ,never point your weapon"at" someone unless you have made the decision to shoot. A gun is not a magic wand, and doesn't ward evil spirits away. This one 75% right, 25% wrong.
 
You did the right thing

You didn't (and still don't ) know if HE had a gun in a pocket or under his shirt :eek: !

Folks like this tend to prove Darwin's theory.

Not gun related but last year some idiot drove through by backyard ( My yard borders town property. ) four times in one week on a snowmobile doing about sixty miles per hour. Two weeks later there was a story in the paper about this guy who just moved to the area and was killed when his snowmobile crashed at over one hundred miles per hour. Haven't had any more snowmobiles come through the backyard since then.

Darwin's theory in action: Proved.
 
You didn't (and still don't ) know if HE had a gun in a pocket or under his shirt
Click to expand...

this is precisely why i drew. when you don't know, you're left with little choice but to assume the worst. its hard to convince yourself to take a chance on him just wanting to come and shake your hand. the worst things possible immediately come to mind. i felt i should prepare for the worst. still can't claim with 100% certainty it was the right thing to do though.

Bobby
 
FWIW, I think you did right by drawing. I don't know WA laws, but the fact that he appeared to be unarmed is irrelevant. His behavior-stopping in the middle of the street, running a sign, getting out of his car and advancing while cursing-was threatening, and could easily be construed as the actions of a drug user or mentally unstable man. And a car side window isn't exactly cover-he could have driven his fist right through it. By showing him the gun you de-escalated the situation; maybe he realized how far he had pushed things (unlikely), or, being a bully, he found out he wasn't running the show. Makes you wonder how he treats the wife and kid. :mad:

Good job.
 
Alternate suggestion (after having the luxury of thinking about it for a while): roll down the window 2 or 3 inches and say: "I'd like a double cheeseburger deluxe, an order of fries, and a large chocolate milkshake, please."

:D
 
Alternate suggestion (after having the luxury of thinking about it for a while): roll down the window 2 or 3 inches and say: "I'd like a double cheeseburger deluxe, an order of fries, and a large chocolate milkshake, please."
Click to expand...
No no no. Wrong situation. You say that when the nice officer has pulled you over and walks up to your window with the ticket pad. I actually tried it once, in my long ago misspent youth. :p
 
I don't know WA laws, but the fact that he appeared to be unarmed is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Knowing Washington cops as I do, and having witnessed these situations here before, the fact that the man appeared unarmed is highly relevant. All the man was doing was yelling and cursing -- although his body language may have appeared threatening, he'd not yet made any physical threats ... waving one's arms and yelling may not in the eyes of the court constitute a threat requiring a warning that one is prepared to use lethal force.

Personally, were I faced with an out of control individual such as Bobby was, although I may not have drawn at the point he did, I am sure I would have at least had my hand on my pistol ...

Here's the applicable RCW, by the way. Unfortunately, it's the responding police officer/deputy/trooper who first puts his/her spin on the actions of the person who draws, and the report he/she makes (plus any witness statements) will probably determine the prosecutor's decision whether to charge ...
(Subsection 3(c) is why one has to be able to adequately articulate just how threatened one felt in the situation. Evidently, Bobby was able to do this well, and things turned out for him -- and that's another reason to call the police immediately after drawing your weapon.)

RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.

[1994 sp.s. c 7 § 426; 1969 c 8 § 1.]

Notes:
Finding -- Intent -- Severability -- 1994 sp.s. c 7: See notes following RCW 43.70.540.

Effective date -- 1994 sp.s. c 7 §§ 401-410, 413-416, 418-437, and 439-460: See note following RCW 9.41.010.
 
yup, i remember the laws pertaining to displaying weapons. the hard part is that the person protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another has to make the call whether it was a threat or not. i interpreted it as a threat when he began to aggressivley approach, still yelling obscenities. only when he saw i had drawn did he stop. he came all the way right up to my window. i made the call that it was a threat. at this point, i still believe i was justified and the police do too. so while he may not have had a weapon, he can be and in my view was, a threat of unlawful force. in this case, i think i was right. i know i didn't act perfectly, but no one was hurt or arrested, the authorities were notified and found me just, so i guess i can say i acted correctly.

Bobby
 
I had a pedestrian on the street in the Chinatown district of Boston try to open my car door, screaming profanities as he did so. When I wouldn't open the door he hit my window as hard as he could with a closed fist. I showed him the business end of my pistol and he took off.

I filed a report with the state police, two of whom happened to be nearby. They hardly reacted at all when I told them I drew my weapon, except to ask, "you didn't fire your weapon, did you?" No hassle, just a few questions. I wonder if the Boston munies would have been so easy-going.

Bob, in your case I think you just barely made the minimum requirement for displaying your weapon. Other than that I wouldn't have made any gestures. I am glad things didn't go further downhill and it's fortunate you had a good reputation with the munies.
 
Bobarino,
I'll toss in my two cents....

The fact you both went home indicates you made the correct decision. The question is, were there other alternatives?

If you were not blocked into a situation where you could back up your car and get away, then you had that option rather than drawing a gun. Given that option, I believe I would have taken it instead. Drawing a gun increases the chances exponentially that you will have to use it. If he had continued his advance, and reached under his shirt, were you prepared to kill him? If you cannot give a definite affirmative, your best option was to back up and escape as well.

I'm glad everything worked out this time. The next guy might not back down though.
 
This episode is a good example of why an intermediate force tool is needed by citizens who ccw. I reccommend Fox OC spray. (Just a little will do ya) it's not 100% answer but it is a good idea for those instances where shooting would be too much under the circumstances and harsh words aren't enough.
 
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