i drew on someone today. que obligatory critique. (pardon the detail please)

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Just one observation:

Bet that dude chills himself out in the future. It may drive home the point that when he might want to fight, he might run across somebody less law abiding and FAR more malevolent. He didn't know you weren't some kind of psycho or other nutjob; his family (if I read it right, his family was in the car) might have gotten the opportunity to see daddy die.
 
Hi Bobarino-

Sounds like you did fine in my book. Events like the one you experienced can unfold and escalate within a heartbeat. Whether the firearm was held underneath the doorsill in your lap or drawn within the tight confines behind your steering wheel, is of minimal difference. The irate guy took a bunch of irrational steps that would identify him as potentially very dangerous.

As an aside to Devonai, you drew a handgun on someone is Boston? That incident clearly must have occurred a LONG time ago. I would have to research the applicable laws to refresh my memory, but I believe possession of a handgun in that city carries a minimum mandatory five-year prison sentence.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
unfortunately i had no exists. his car was in front of me, a car had already stopped behind me, to my right was a curb and someone's house, and to my left was oncoming traffic. i had nowhere to go. and soon as he slammed on the brakes, i looked for ways out of there/around him, but there were none. check my original post. first thing i did was scan for exits.

i completely agree with GruntII about and intermediate solution. i might have to get some pepper spray.

i do appreciate all the input ladies and gents. all comments are welcome.

Bobby
 
I'd say you did well. Showing restraint without allowing yourself to become a victim is the essence of armed self defense in a civilized society.

Clearly displaying a firearm difused the situation and you didn't have to shoot this jerk so thats a win-win if you ask me (add in the positive police response and I'd say that makes it even better).


some people are just dumb. this guy had a wife and kid in a baby seat in the car and didn't stop or even look for traffic when he was supposed, nearly caused a wreck, tried to cause another wreck and then tried to start a fight over it. i'm sure darwin will visit him someday. i'm glad it wasn't today.
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Sad thing is this jerkoff will probably take out his frustrations over the situation on one/both of them :( He's clearly got some issues and when he discovered he couldn't take out his issues on you without major risk of harm I'm sure that rage will be redirected. $10 says he was already fighting with the "wife" and thats why he was driving like a schmuck.
 
I give you an A+ you did geat.

You didn't escalate the situation, you give good commands, you didn't just pull and start shooting without first trying (and thankfully suceeding) to descalate the situation so you didn't have to fire, you got out of dodge when you could saftly do so, and once in a safe location called the police to report it. In my opinion text book for dealing with road rage or any situation where another wants to possiby harm you.

Armed or not I don't care, the human body can easily be a dangerous weapon itself. I'm not willing to bet the guy who is irate and will possiby assult me isn't a better fighter then I am, and even if I know Im a better fighter I'm not willing to bet in the scuffel (i'm a grappler type not a boxer) he wont find out I have a gun and use it agianst me. I also don't know you aren't armed and just haven't pulled a weapon yet. So armed or not if you are a threat, coming at me, and I have no route of escape (step gets skipped if you have a gun displayed and could shoot as I try to escape), I would pull a gun since the human body can be a plenty dangerous weapon on its own.
 
Three years ago on a country road I had a guy behind pass me just as opposite direction traffic was also passing. I estimate there was four inches between us as he passed at about 30 mph. I was incredulous and gave a non-verbal response probably similar to what you described. To my amazement, after he passed me this jerk (when he saw my reaction in his mirror) slammed on his brakes, stopped in the middle of the road, got out of his car, and started waving his arms and screaming at me for not getting out of the way.

Oh, there is a slight difference between your story and mine, though... I was on a bicycle with my two year old sitting in a baby seat above the rear wheel.

I was not armed. Fortunately a garbage truck driver who saw what happened stopped and asked me if I was OK after the jerk got back in his car and tore off.

Sometimes people get amazingly hot-headed when surrounded by 4000+ pounds of steel. Glad you were able to defuse the situation.
 
I think you did what was right and justified. I probably wouldn't have pointed the firearm at him, but I wasn't there and you obviously had a certain amount of concern for your well being. Having had dealings with some law enforcement agencies on your side of the mountains, I am a little surprised that they sided with you so easily. Do you mind me asking what jurisdiction it was in?

I'm also agree with MillCreek, if this had occured in urban Pierce County, it may not have ended so well.

Parker
 
Another thought-

While you may have a duty to retreat (and if you could have should have reguardless of this thought) he had displayed actions already of trying to get into an accident by trying to get you to rear end him and obviousy by getting out of his car felt the need to escalate the situation. Had you retreated by going over the curb or something like that theres a though in my mind you just may have had yourself someone chasing you and/or trying to run you off the road.

Just a thought.
 
Most likely it wouldn't have mattered if you made any gestures at all, the guy's reaction would have been the same.

I wonder how many times this guy has done this in the past. A couple people have posted "this will make that guy mellow out"; well, I wouldn't be surprised if this little incident doesn't make that guy start carrying his own gun so he can be ready for the next show-down.

Some people are just jerks and will make up their own reasons to get their panties in a wad - pretty much what I'm trying to say is "Don't expect irrational people to make rational decisions."
 
Sounds fine to me, but it could have been sticky.

I like your response and admit that I did not expect as much from the LEOs as you got. But pointing the gun may have been the difference to the local DA types, but not usually a LEO. I don't imagine they get worked up until shots are fired. Apparently, in parts of Washington it could be a real pickle. And since I live in Oregon and reside only a few miles away from Washington, I would have to approach it differently.

I would have kept the pistol in my lap in my grip or placed it on the dash for him to think about. If he attempted to open the door or punched the window, I think that is when I'd show him the business end.

I had a person open my door once, a trucker who needed to back up from a light a little. He got all pissy, I backed up a bit, then he came and opened my door to confront me. Spooky big hotheaded guy at least 10 years my senior, he would have creamed me had I decided to join into the shouting match.

You are the most vulnerable in two instances. On the toilet while sitting down, and getting into and out of your car. A person could easily rush your car and break your legs when you get out or in. So, retreat was not an option for this one unless they consider jumping in the passenger seat "retreat"

Easy to keyboard commando this with lots of time to hash it over, but I can't say I'd do anything differently when presented with the same pressure and lack of time to think about it.
But I have to think about it critically because you have provided the opportunity.

Thank you, glad all was safe, that's the goal.

jeepmor
 
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As an aside to Devonai, you drew a handgun on someone is Boston? That incident clearly must have occurred a LONG time ago. I would have to research the applicable laws to refresh my memory, but I believe possession of a handgun in that city carries a minimum mandatory five-year prison sentence.
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This was in 2003, and a concealed pistol permit issued by any city in Massachusetts is perfectly valid in Boston.
 
Clearly this is a combo of 20/20 hindsight and armchair quarterbacking but ...

The only concern I would have about such incidents is that it is now on record that you have drawn your gun on a guy who was threatening you without a visible weapon.

Maybe you get 1 of those for free, I don't know.

But, if you ever do use deadly force to protect yourself or your family you can bet this little fact will be used about a thousand times in your trial to make you look like a gun toting aggressor.

I think I would have had my hand ON my gun, which probably would have had the same affect on the BG without having actually drawn it.

But, it's hard to predict what would have happened if you had done anything differently. I'm glad the end result was that both of you went home to your families.

Stay safe,
ChickenHawk
 
I'm glad it all worked out. The best thing about it is you have gained some experience in this situation and the next time you're in it, you'll do even better.
 
thank you all for the input. this happened in Puyallup WA. the lady cop that i spoke to was is the Chief's daughter. there may be a record of the other person calling but i called the non emergency number to speak to an officer. she said that making and taking statements was unnecessary as our stories matched very closely save for he made himself out to be the victim, whcih she didn't buy in the first place, i don't believe there is a permanent record of the situation. i don't know for sure though.

in WA we have no duty to retreat, but that was my first thought. if there was a way i could have u-turned, passed him, whatever, i would have, but i was trapped, which made the red even redder.

i sure hope this guy chills out. for his family's sake. he's either going to get them hurt or leave them dad-less one day.

again i appreaciate the input and insight. it is indeed a learning experience.

Bobby
 
I think that you could have kept your pistol hidden but I think you were justified in pointing it at the guy.

I don't understand why the aggressor being empty handed means anything. Even if you somehow knew for a fact he was totally unarmed- he could still break your window and beat you to death.

Is the 21 foot rule not applying due to car window glass?

Let me ask a hypothetical- Let's say the guy is unarmed for sure. He walks back to your car screaming and yelling, you draw but stay concealed. He starts pounding on the window. What then, display or fire?

Do you wait until the window breaks? How about until he breaks the window and is reaching in, now you may have to wrestle to keep posession...
 
Glad you made it through the incident unharmed.

I'll divide my response into what I personally feel and what I think the lageality of the situation was, IMO.

First, personally, good job. Send the ass back to his car. Who the heck knows what he was going to do. Kick the crap out of you or your car.

However, from a legal standpoint, I think you're very fortunate you were not charged with brandishing a firearm considering that he was unarmed and had not CLEARLY threatened your life.

Now, I was not there ... and if YOU felt your life was in danger then you acted appropriately. It's just that with the other person unarmed, you're a little more in gray territory than if he had a weapon of some sort. Ultimately, it's what the DA and the Judge think was appropriate that matters.

It's great that your local LEO's are reasonable people. Kudos to them.
 
bofe954 said:
I think that you could have kept your pistol hidden but I think you were justified in pointing it at the guy.

I don't understand why the aggressor being empty handed means anything. Even if you somehow knew for a fact he was totally unarmed- he could still break your window and beat you to death.

Is the 21 foot rule not applying due to car window glass?

Let me ask a hypothetical- Let's say the guy is unarmed for sure. He walks back to your car screaming and yelling, you draw but stay concealed. He starts pounding on the window. What then, display or fire?

Do you wait until the window breaks? How about until he breaks the window and is reaching in, now you may have to wrestle to keep posession...
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Tough call ... if he's yelling that he's going to kill you, then draw and fire. If he's just ranting, you're in that gray area of the law. Personally, anyone comes pounding on your car window I think you SHOULD be able to fire. But who the hell knows these days.
 
I think it's easy to say he shouldn't have shown the weapon afterwards because we know the aggressor was nonviolent and just went back to his car.

From the point of view of the poster this isn't clear when he draws. For all he knows the guy could have just robbed a liqour store and successfully evaded the police.

My understanding of self defense-
1. No option to escape- check
2. Fear for your life, someone else's- guy already almost killed you. Now he has stopped going where he was going, got out of his car and is approaching yours while yelling and flailing his arms. Poster has warned him to get back in his car and he is not- check

Where am I going wrong thinking this guy had every reason to do what he did?

Another hypothetical- what if you were in your car with your newborn in the back seat in a child seat?
 
Let me ask a hypothetical- Let's say the guy is unarmed for sure. He walks back to your car screaming and yelling, you draw but stay concealed. He starts pounding on the window. What then, display or fire?
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Shoot till he stops or the slide locks.

In my opinion by slamming on his breaks he had already attempted assulting you by trying to get you to rear end him. Thats enough for me to say he wouldn't have had a problem hurting you. Armed or not it isn't hard to kill someone with your bare hands if you desire to do so and are a half decent fighter.
 
Quote:
Let me ask a hypothetical- Let's say the guy is unarmed for sure. He walks back to your car screaming and yelling, you draw but stay concealed. He starts pounding on the window. What then, display or fire?

Shoot till he stops or the slide locks.
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Ri-iight, Lupinus ... and then enjoy the next twelve to twenty years of your life in the Big House ...
 
I give you a BIG thumbs-up for having sense enough to live in a place where you got the reaction you did from the cop on the phone. Isn't it nice to live in a civil state, where cops are reasonable?
 
bofe954 said:
I think it's easy to say he shouldn't have shown the weapon afterwards because we know the aggressor was nonviolent and just went back to his car.

From the point of view of the poster this isn't clear when he draws. For all he knows the guy could have just robbed a liqour store and successfully evaded the police.

My understanding of self defense-
1. No option to escape- check
2. Fear for your life, someone else's- guy already almost killed you. Now he has stopped going where he was going, got out of his car and is approaching yours while yelling and flailing his arms. Poster has warned him to get back in his car and he is not- check

Where am I going wrong thinking this guy had every reason to do what he did?

Another hypothetical- what if you were in your car with your newborn in the back seat in a child seat?
Click to expand...

I certainly do not personally disagree with your assessment. My only concern is if the LAW would agree. On a personal level, hell yes - I think he did right. Unfortunately, unless I am on his jury my personal feelings don't do him a darn bit of good. The law is probably a little hesitant to let people start shooting simply because they are yelling and screaming at you.

I think for me the difference would be if he tried to come through the window. At that point, any reasonable person could conclude that he means to do bodily harm unto you and your legal position is much more solid.
 
In Florida, you could have been hit with 2nd degree felony, Aggrivated Assalut....the law allows for a non fair fight(he was 6'4" and 350, and you are a 95 pound woman)...but Mano-a- Mano, it dont fly....unless he had a baseball bat, or other deadly weapon, and you were 100% positive he was going to use it on you, you cant pull your weapon on him..
 
If it's worth drawing, then it's worth shooting. If it's not worth shooting, then it's not worth drawing. Drawing as a deterrant is a very dangerous game.

That having been said -- you had good eyes and ears on this one. Everyone went home and you didn't have a lawyer bill. 'Bout as good as it could have ended.

Rich
 
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