Presently a number of states have legislation "in the mill" to require serial numbering of ammunition, so the police can trace back a murderous bullet to the person who bought it. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that would do to the increasing price of ammunition. We can complain, write to our legislators, etc. That do any good? Not likely. I would suggest that manufacturers protect themselves by a very simple action: Just don't sell any ammunition in states with such laws. Not to anyone! Including police, sheriffs, etc. The manufacturers would lose a small amount of business, but nowhere nearly as costly as trying to put numbers on the bullets! When the politicians in those "numbering states" discovered their police (and their own bodyguards) had been disarmed hopefull they would get the message! And, if any government agencies "sneaked" across the state line for ammo from an "unnumbered state," prosecute them! Forget about writing to your legislator---write to your ammunition makers!!!
Serial numbers on ammunition?
- Thread starter polekitty
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FieroCDSP
Member
The problem is that the police agencies are always exempt from the gun/ammo laws as written. They will always be exempt, as the writers of the laws do not see police as a worry. It's only the people at large. Ammo makers have the Federal government as the #1 consumer of ammo, with the combined state and local agencies as #2. They cannot survive without those contracts, nor without the permits to build and do business.
No....the answer lies in the voting booth. Get in pro-2A persons and the ammo/gun ban legislations go away, as they have no traction.
No....the answer lies in the voting booth. Get in pro-2A persons and the ammo/gun ban legislations go away, as they have no traction.
Jorg Nysgerrig
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That works great until you realize that you are playing into exactly what they would like to happen: the removal of ammo from the streets. It just takes one company to fill that nice government contract which is easy to do, as most of those laws exempt police forces from the requirement.
armedandsafe
Member
They will exclude LEO agencies and politicians from prosecution. Legislators KNOW that such people are above the law.
Pops
Pops
M1911Owner
Member
If you fire a serial-numbered round at a range, and leave the brass on the floor of the range, somebody could pick it up, reload it, kill somebody with it, and the trail would lead back to you rather than them, right? 
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
They don't even have to reload it. Just grab a handful of assorted casings and drop them on the ground at the scene. Have the police chasing false leads and dead ends for weeks.
highlander 5
Member
Does anyone here remember back in the 70s or 80s a push to put tagents in the various powders for reloading with the same arguments as the serial number dim bulbs are using? After a long drawn out song and dance routine the idea was put on the back shelf.
30 cal slob
Member
once all the facts are laid out, most politicians (to their credit) see ammo serialization as a waste of time. cops generally don't support it, and when you have companies like Winchester saying they won't ship ammo to your state if this passes, well ... 
it seems microstamping :banghead: has better shot at passing.
it seems microstamping :banghead: has better shot at passing.
SCKimberFan
Member
....the answer lies in the voting booth. Get in pro-2A persons and the ammo/gun ban legislations go away, as they have no traction.
+1. This is the most effective way to combat any legislation. It starts at the local level and continues through the state level to the federal level. You must register and VOTE.
+1. This is the most effective way to combat any legislation. It starts at the local level and continues through the state level to the federal level. You must register and VOTE.
Back in February I did research on this and posted the results on THR along with some possible suggestions on how to approach legislators.
OK,
Little digging and poking and I think we have the culprits.
The core legislation document was written a person called Briahna Taylor for the law firm Gordon Thomas Honeywell.
As if by magic one of their clients is called Ammunition Coding System.
www.ammocoding.com
This appears to be a shell for a company called Ravensforge LLC
Ravensforge inventors or record are Mr Steve Mace of Seattle, Washington and Mr Russel H Ford also of Seattle
As if by magic they have a patent pending for this magical system
It is very interesting to see that as part of their "About Us" mission statement they boldly state that the implementation requires legislation.
Interestingly enough they also intend to charge a licencing fee for EVERY bullet sold as well.....
I would suggest that the folks in each of the legislations where this is being pushed pass this info onto the relevant political persons with questions such as.
This legislation is only being pushed by a single vendor as a commercial enterprise. In effect using the legislation as their sales force (without paying them......
This system is proprietary and with patent pending will lock out any other provider
The system has not had any validation, peer review etc
The system will act an inherent restraint on interstate trade
The information provided via the system will contain data that is generally regarded as PII (Personally Identifiable Information) and as such has legislative protection
Due to it's nature the system may broach 5th amendment self incrimination protection.
Play nicely now......
OK,
Little digging and poking and I think we have the culprits.
The core legislation document was written a person called Briahna Taylor for the law firm Gordon Thomas Honeywell.
As if by magic one of their clients is called Ammunition Coding System.
www.ammocoding.com
This appears to be a shell for a company called Ravensforge LLC
Ravensforge inventors or record are Mr Steve Mace of Seattle, Washington and Mr Russel H Ford also of Seattle
As if by magic they have a patent pending for this magical system
It is very interesting to see that as part of their "About Us" mission statement they boldly state that the implementation requires legislation.
Interestingly enough they also intend to charge a licencing fee for EVERY bullet sold as well.....
I would suggest that the folks in each of the legislations where this is being pushed pass this info onto the relevant political persons with questions such as.
This legislation is only being pushed by a single vendor as a commercial enterprise. In effect using the legislation as their sales force (without paying them......
This system is proprietary and with patent pending will lock out any other provider
The system has not had any validation, peer review etc
The system will act an inherent restraint on interstate trade
The information provided via the system will contain data that is generally regarded as PII (Personally Identifiable Information) and as such has legislative protection
Due to it's nature the system may broach 5th amendment self incrimination protection.
Play nicely now......
They had an interview on Cam & Company a while back talking to one of the inventors of bullet serialization. He basically sounded like an idiot, since Cam was punching holes through his argument left and right.
It can be found on the NRA archives at nra.org
I don't think that this type of nonsense will pass in most of the states but I feel like it may pass in states like California and New Jersey. I guess criminals will have to go back to using revolvers.
It can be found on the NRA archives at nra.org
I don't think that this type of nonsense will pass in most of the states but I feel like it may pass in states like California and New Jersey. I guess criminals will have to go back to using revolvers.
I live in NJ and when I passed this info to the relatively few sensible state senators as a pre-emptive move I got positive feedback on this as a non flyer.
Being NJ, the idea that some out of state company would be expecting politicians to do lobby work for free with no give back might have had something to do with it.....
Being NJ, the idea that some out of state company would be expecting politicians to do lobby work for free with no give back might have had something to do with it.....
freakshow10mm
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Yup, BigSlick posted the same exact stuff on GT and GP.
TCB in TN
Member
Any major law like this passes and really drives up the cost of ammo then we have a great 2nd Ammendment case. Just like the taxes on ink that were revoked because of the 1st. Any punitive tax/lisc. fee like that will likely be easily defeated in court.
M1911Owner
Member
I didn't know about that. Kewl!
The_Sheriff
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As how effective that would be it's never going to happen, they bring in to much money for the manufracturers. Also luckily I live in AZ where that bill was thrown away months ago, but when it costs ammo makers more anywhere I will have to pay a bit of the tab also. I say write your legislators and vote Republican or if you want to throw away your vote but still want someone 2A friendly go Libertarian. Just my .02 cents.
The_Sheriff
The_Sheriff
learn2shoot
Member
Not necessarity- there was a race in VA where the R. (Jeannemarie Devolites Davis) was a die-hard anti-gunner and the D (Chap Peterson)was a solid pro-gun guy. She tried to make the race about guns - by sending flies (edit she sent out fliers kinda funny typo since gun control is BS) out relentlessly.
Anyways she lost.
dont forget, the states that have tried to have bullets with serial numbers wanted to make it illegal to sell anyy amunition in those states unless the bullet had a serial number.
That would also have applied to foreign made ammunition, as well as all that nice shiny SURPLUS ammo for your surplus rifles.
And if microstamping passed nationally, your mil surp rifles would be illegal, as well how many companies would spend a million or two dollars on machines to make microstamping firing pins for rifles that havent been made in 40 some years? Actually it would be retroactive and well how do you get a 20,000 double rifle to microstamp?
That would also have applied to foreign made ammunition, as well as all that nice shiny SURPLUS ammo for your surplus rifles.
And if microstamping passed nationally, your mil surp rifles would be illegal, as well how many companies would spend a million or two dollars on machines to make microstamping firing pins for rifles that havent been made in 40 some years? Actually it would be retroactive and well how do you get a 20,000 double rifle to microstamp?
Sam Adams
Member
.
Of course, one could always go to a range where a lot of police forces practice and pick up a bunch of the brass....
This works better with the micro-stamping of the cases via the firing pin (i.e. specific to the gun, not the ammo), but if there are 50 cases that provide false leads vs. 1 solid piece of evidence, the police are going to spend a lot of time and effort for no particularly good reason. Better yet (if you're a criminal) is to use a 9mm revolver-which drops no cases) and drop a bunch of 9mm cases that you picked up at the range.MD_Willington
Member
Turns out the people pushing the serialization tech are tied in with the person that patented the way it will be done, very dirty politics.
http://dustinsgunblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/unbelievable-attempt-at-ammunition-ban.html
from Dustins blog
This was from back in Feb IIRC, these states want or have something regarding this on the books.
http://dustinsgunblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/unbelievable-attempt-at-ammunition-ban.html
from Dustins blog
This was from back in Feb IIRC, these states want or have something regarding this on the books.
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