Requirements Set For Ultimate Survival Rifle

35whelen try this link http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm

I think this will do it. Check out his whole site, Its all good.

And I like to cast also. I do it when it starts to cool off. I cast enough to last the year, It might take 2-3 days but heck anything to do with guns and shooting beats the hell outta watching TV.

Hmmm.....

after reading ALL this

i think a .22 magnum bolt action
and a .22 magnum revolver
would be the optimum in efficiency.

one brick of magnum ammo for hunting
and sniping the BGs
and 2 bricks of regular .22 for small game.

....there was another thread that asked why there
is no carbine in 7.62 x 25??
Or even a bolt action.

(IMHO that would be a good survival round)

For you wilderness BOL guys, I would design a mag fed (detachable)(20rds) pump action rifle in 7.62 w\solar reflex sighting!For the Urban Bug-in guys,there are plenty different ones that fill the bill.

I think I will stick with my original choice of a .30-30 in a lever action.
I am going to try some reverse thinking here. The choice of a rifle should be second to ammo availabilty.
.30-06, .308, .30-30, .223, .22LR are found almost every where.
The platform, semi, bolt , lever or what ever don't do well with nothing to shoot out of them.
Shotguns are versatile, but heavy and the ammo bulky
Rifles with pistol calibers are limited in range and power compared to true rifle rounds.
Just my thoughts, as you may be limited by what you can carry and the need to scrounge ammo if you need to keep moving, assuming you CAN move and have what you need with you.
Somebody mentioned aboutthe limited amount of time for living out of a back back, that is the 'correct' statement. The firearm my be pretty low on the list after you pack any medications, and other kits.
That said, I find these threads a lot of fun and enjoy everybody's take on their choices.

You know...assuming survival is not about zombie...which it shouldn't be...It would be hard to beat my 22mag/20ga Savage. That may not be the best ammo combo....223 over 12ga maybe...but the config is hard to beat in the woods or the desert or wherever.

HoosierQ, my thinking exactly. The Savage 24 is a great option. The .22WMR packs enough punch over the .22LR to be worth it (IMHO), and the 20 gauge is sufficient for other purpose, especially if you have some slugs and buckshot along.

I might give some consideration to the .22/.410 as well. .410 ammo is much less bulky than even 20 gauge ... but it's a lot harder to come by. I wonder if you can get a .223 to .22LR adapter for a Savage 24? That might make the .223/12 gauge the optimum.

Anyway, I like the idea of a combo gun for the OP's original application.

1894 in 357. light, compact and reliable. feed it 38's for small game and 357 for larger ( more dangerous) game out to 200 yards.

I think any one rifle is going to be a compromise. To me, the old Winchester 94 30-30 carbine is as good a choice as any, though I also like the 22 mag concept as well. How bout a 94 carbine and a Ruger Single Six revolver on the belt. Problem. solved.

Chuck Spears said:

I think it is highly relevant. If you run out of supplies and have to go searching for ammo, then needing a common round would become very important. If your survival scenario is for a limited amount of time you can be fine with your stored ammo. But if it turns into something long term you are going to be wishing you were searching for some .30-06 or .308 rather than some kind of exotic or less popular round.

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That has a lot of truth in it. But...
- In a short term scenario even just one box of ammunition will be enough.
- In a long term scenario, are you going to want to trade "irreplaceable" ammunition away? That's pretty valuable stuff that you might need to keep on living and it would be likely that you couldn't replace it at any cost. So it won't matter to anyone else whether you have a dozen boxes of 12 gauge or not because it's your's, not their's. At the very least, they'd have to offer you something very valuable to pry a box or two of your ammo away from you.
- Consider the Mosin Nagant. It fires an obscure round that's mostly available by mail order or at gun shows and some better stocked gun stores but it's not exactly common. But if you invest $80 in a rifle and another $400 into ammunition, that gives you an awful lot of ammunition to burn through before you have to worry about needing more. Buy another 200 rounds of reloadable ammunition and learn how to cast, and as long as you have components you'll have ammunition.
- It does make sense now to stick with more common or cheaper rounds - .308, .223, .30'06, .243, and .30-30 are on sale often, especially around hunting season, so it makes sense to go with something common. Or buy an AK or SKS and store up some 7.62x39 or 5.45x39. Eventhough the Mosin isn't common, it is cheap, so you can make a strong case for going with it.
- If you're searching for ammunition after something has already gone wrong, you have already made a big mistake. IMO, everyone should fill an ammo can for every caliber they "need" ASAP. An ammo can isn't enough forever, but it is enough for quite awhile, especially if it's a can full of .22LR.

- This does give an edge to manually operated guns. You can use lighter charges to save on powder in them because they don't require power from the gun to work the action. They will also often work with neck-sizing only so your brass lasts longer. And when you shoot, the brass stays in the rifle until you eject it so it's more likely that you won't lose the casings. This is good because those casings are absolutely vital to the functioning of your firearm. Lose enough of them and you are in trouble.

Legionairre - Check Graf's and Midway for reloadable brass .410 shotshells. Personally, if I were going with a shotgun or combo gun, I'd want some reloadable shells and an old Lee loader. I'd probably choose 20 gauge because I think it's a good compromise round. It offers most of the power of the 12 gauge and is cheaper to buy and stock now than the .410. Some .410's can also take .444 Marlin for almost standard loads or .45LC and .44-40 brass for reduced loads. Just don't try to fire factory rounds in those calibers from a .410 or you'll probably die.

You know...assuming survival is not about zombie...which it shouldn't be...It would be hard to beat my 22mag/20ga Savage. That may not be the best ammo combo....223 over 12ga maybe...but the config is hard to beat in the woods or the desert or wherever.

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That's kind of why I mentioned the Savage 24 back at the beginning.
For absolute ease of finding ammo, a .22LR over 12ga would be best.

My next choice would be .22Mag over 12 ga, but I don't think Savage ever made that combination. .22 Mag over 20 gauge is the next best thing.

IMO for that gun, the .223 would be a worse option.

See, the thing I hate about most "survival rifles" is they are some sort of rimfire over a .410, or a centerfire over 20 or 12 ga -- or worse, they have the shotgun on top.

So you have a combo dedicated to small game only (rimfire over .410) -- sorry 93-gr slugs from a .410 are unimpressive, as that's less weight and about the same velocity as a 9mm from a pistol, so not much good for large game.

Or, you have a combo dedicated to big game.
Rimfire over 12 or 20 hgauge can give you both.

I find it interesting that many people (rightly so) want to know what the particular survival scenario might entail (urban/rural, mobile/stationary, fending for food/fending off people, short term/long term, etc.) before they pick the ideal, singular (people cheat when they try to toss a .22 pistol or some such into the mix ) firearm. Maybe I'm wrong but I have a feeling that the OP deliberately left the exact circumstance(s) of his doomsday situation vague so that those participating in the thread would have to select a weapon system/configuration in advance, based on no matter what happens in the future whatever might come.

And if that's not what the OP had in mind, I still think the idea of having to pick one gun ahead of time, without benefit of a crystal ball, is a pretty neat mental exercise for us firearm aficionados.

m14 has got you covered

why deviate?

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It's popularly known as "thinking outside the box".
To the degree such deviation was used in this thread, it's also known as "standing on the shoulders of giants", along with "not re-inventing the wheel".
Much of this discussion has been addressed much more articulately by wiser folk, so a reference to their published reasoning is certainly warranted.

To that end, I'll re-ask: why not a "scout rifle"? It's designed pretty much for everything intended in the OP.

I mentioned the 30 carbine earlier. They cost more than a 357 rifle. They chunk the brass away when really need to save it. They have less power with the full power loads than a full power 357. Plus they won't function with reduced loads. Thirty eight and 357 ammo are much easier to find.

Other than that they would work just fine.

One of the old Marlin lever guns in 30 carbine might solve some of the problems except for the power issue. The same gun in 256 Winchester might be okay if you could find one. The brass is made from 357 mag brass.

But in the end for my own use I would stick with the plain vanilla 357 rifle. My 44 mag or my 32 mag could also be an option.

What ratshooter said on the .30 carbine.
Plus, it can basically be duplicated with a .357 rifle or even by loading down a .308.
But there isn't any way to load the .30 carbine up to the power that a .357 rifle and there is no way to get it anywhere near a .308.

Survival where? Lost in the woods or a SHTF rifle. Big differance sometimes.

SwampWolf said:

Maybe I'm wrong but I have a feeling that the OP deliberately left the exact circumstance(s) of his doomsday situation vague
so that those participating in the thread would have to select a weapon system/configuration in advance,
based on no matter what happens in the future whatever might come.

And if that's not what the OP had in mind, I still think the idea of having to pick one gun ahead of time,
without benefit of a crystal ball, is a pretty neat mental exercise for us firearm aficionados.

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Ditto that.

The M14 has me covered. It's the ultimate do-it-all rifle. Accurate, easy to shoot, powerful, high capacity, easy to find parts.

Nolo said:

Anyway, please don't post with "The M14 has got you covered" and the like.

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For Freedom said:

The M14 has me covered. It's the ultimate do-it-all rifle.

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I think this is a fine stopping point for this thread.

I think this is a fine stopping point for this thread.

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I hope not, at least until we can amass some data about
M14's v bolts v lever carbines (your choice of calibers).

Should include the following data (among others):

* velocity, ft/lbs and other ballistics (comparing similar calibers)
* ammo availability & top-off-ability (magazines v loading gates)
* ease of field stripping, familiarity by a local populace
* social discretion in a shtf emergency ( )

We also have to ask ourselves this....If, in this survival scenario, we are willing to steal ammo (implicating use of a firearm utilizing "common" ammo) from a house out in the boonies, then why aren't we just gonna make the occupants put their hands up and steal their food & supplies? Or for that matter, oust them and take the house as a base? Or burglarize/steal their food or livestock without force? I mean, if we're gonna be criminals, where do you draw the line? If there ARE no houses (true wilderness), OR if you're unwilling to commit crimes, then the common ammo thing is irrelevant. You've either brought enough for yourself, or tough noogies.

Most people who have seriously investigated long-term survival scenarios tend to agree that what you have when you start is all you can expect to have.

See there's proponents of all views.

Common calibers are what you'll most likely come across. . .NOW.
Problem is, they're also the first that most people will go after when "it" happens.

Uncommon calibers are more difficult to find. . .NOW, but may be ALL you can find after everyone's hoarded the common calibers.

Case in point: Y2K and the fallacy of the ubiquitousness of the .22LR. Just prior to the supposed end of the world, for about 2 months before, and a month after, there was NO .22LR to be had, period. So much for ease of acquisition. It's also why I recommend AGAINST trying to take a .22 semi auto as the do-all rifle. Because you're stuck with .22LR. With a manually-operated, TUBE-FED or single shot .22, you can shoot .22Short, Long and Long Rifles. Pre-Y2K, there was plenty of .22 short on the shelves, 2.. CB Long, .22WRF and .22 Magnum. Which reminds me, you can use .22 WRF for .22LR ballistics in a .22 Magnum -- again, tube-fed or single shot.

One of my favorite survival guns is not a rifle. It's the Ruger Single Six. With both cylinders, you can fire any .22 rimfire out there. It's not as accurate with S, L and LR, but you can make do in a pinch.

Then there's reloading. Unfortunately, you have to carry all the components except the brass. OK, so why not just carryt he brass -- i.e. loaded ammo? Going to stock it at your "bug out location"? Why not stock the loaded ammo? Imagine you make it to your BOL, and the barbarian hordes show up and all you have is your 30 rounds and a pile of components? Not good.

Also, be honest. How many really have a BOL that they OWN? If you don't, you can't bank on it being yours at the time. If you have enough money for a home and a separate,s tocked BOL that so many claim to have, then you should never be down to hoofing it with your backpack.

I think the reason these threads go in circles, and become so heated at time is that there's so many mutually exclusive assumptions that have to be made to make these "scenarios" work, and each person has their own set, which tend to exclude some of the assumptions the next guy makes.

I really see three real reasons for "survival".
1.) Some kind of disaster happens. In most cases, you're best off to "bug out" to your home. In which case, it doesn't matter how much your ammo weighs, or which one gun to have, you'll have all of them, all your food, etc, and your house carries it all.

2.) A disaster comes about where you must leave your home. Like say, you live in a state that burns down every summer, but don't want to move. or you live in a hurricane prone area in a city that's below sea level. Here, the best idea isn't hoofing it out with a backpack. You can't outrun either disaster on foot. Best thing to do is pack up your vehicle(s) and leave as far in advance as possible. The best preps will be a good chunk of cash in 20s and below, and a big bank account in a bank that has branches all over the country.

3.) You decide modern life isn't for you and you want to go "off grid" and live like a mountain man. In which case you'll either need a good bank account to begin with so you can replenish gear (since fur trapping isn't a real lucrative way to make a living anymore). Even back in the fur trap era, guys went out with MASSES of equipment and "rendezvoused" every year to reequip. You'll need to also. Otherwise, you need to learn tot an hides, make cordage from animal guts, sew your own clothes, moccasins, etc and make a bow and arrows, because that's what you'll be down to in short order, so it doesn't matter what gun you have.