Requirements Set For Ultimate Survival Rifle

[Nolo]

He wrote a post that talked about weight as an issue in a survival rifle and quoted my post.

Was I not supposed to respond?

If someone wants to ridicule my suggestion for a survival rifle them I'm going to respond and ask them to come up with something better than insults. Is this survival rifle of yours supposed to be as light and handy as an umbrella for wheezing toads who measure their hunts in feet?

PM him. That is why we have them. Don't spam the thread.

 

[Browning]

PM him. That is why we have them. Don't spam the thread.

He posted something here, so I answered here.

I have no interest in spamming your thread.

 

[Mountie855]

Interesting that a single shot such as the NEF hasn't been mentioned- maybe in 223 w/ 22Mag adapter, or some such combo. Watching the Cowboy Action shooters, and their methods of reloading the SxS shotguns, the break-open action doesn't seem to be too far behind the bolt action in speed.

Simple to maintain, low cost to buy, available in a wide variety of calibers/gauges. I have one in 223 which will give my Model 7 SS bolt a run for its money at 100 yds.

 

[Coal Dragger]

The more posts I read in this thread the more convinced I am that a tough bolt gun of reasonable size in .308 is the way to go. If I can fish, or trap small game why would I waste ammo shooting them?

 

[35 Whelen]

Sub-cartridge chamber adapters & reduced loads

I am rather surprised that .35 Remington has not been mentioned.
Seems to be a pretty versatile caliber for a variety of uses.
(Not to mention barrel inserts could be had for .357 and all them)

One of the 10 lb. rifles I mention (which by the way, I DO lug around the mountains in addition to a 10 lb. backpack. Sitting on your butt in a deer stand with your Wanna Be a Mercinary rifle is not physically challenging. Sorry...couldn't resist I'll stop now!) is a 35 Whelen. I looked into having a chamber adapter made for it so it would fire 38 Colt/38 Special/357 Mags, but the rim on these cartridges is too large for the Whelen chamber, so it definitely wouldn't work in a 35 Remington. But excellent idea!

This talk of one rifle for survival got the ol' cranial gears turning. As a result, I spent some time in the shop this afternoon experimenting with light .308 loads. (My Scout Rifle is a .308) I broke down some 00 buck shells and robbed the pellets. I then ran them through a .308" cast bullet sizing die and loaded them over 1, then 2, and finally 3 grs. of Bullseye. The balls were seated to where they just protruded out of the case mouth. This rifle, my back-up, back-up elk rifle, is currently sighted 2.5" high @ 100 yds. with a 180 gr. handload running a hair over 2600 fps.
I tested the loads on my 25 yd. range here at the house. The 1 & 2 gr. loads shot 4"-6" below point of aim and grouped bad...about 6"! The 3 gr. load however, showed promise. It for the most part hit point of aim and I got 3 of 5 shots in about a 1" circle. Two others shot low and right. For some reason, there was quite a bit of unburned powder in the barrel and I think this may have a negative effect on accuracy. Also, the buck I pulled was copper plated, so when I sized the balls, there were slivers of copper on the buck.
Soooo, I think next time, I'll try cleaning the barrel between shots and try to get my hands on some soft lead buckshot.

If I can get these loads to group 1" +/- @ 25 yds., that should be all that is required for most small game hunting. I know here at my house, it's no big deal to get within 25 yds. of a cottontails, squirrels, turkeys, etc.

I also have a mould for a dinky .30 caliber bullet that weighs right around 100 grs. I may try it too.

If someone wants to ridicule my suggestion for a survival rifle them I'm going to respond and ask them to come up with something better than insults. Is this survival rifle of yours supposed to be as light and handy as an umbrella for wheezing toads who measure their hunts in feet?

In Post #38 of this thread, you'll find my idea of "something better". In the pic below, I'm you'll see the "wheezing toad" bent over a bull elk, killed with said 10 lb. rifle at a hair over 10,000 ft. It's about a 2 - 2 1/2 hour ride in by horseback. After skinning, quartering and packing a few hundred pounds of elk on the horses that day, I walked the whole way out.


Sorry about getting off topic. I'm finished!

35W

 

[Nolo]

Interesting that a single shot such as the NEF hasn't been mentioned- maybe in 223 w/ 22Mag adapter, or some such combo. Watching the Cowboy Action shooters, and their methods of reloading the SxS shotguns, the break-open action doesn't seem to be too far behind the bolt action in speed.

Simple to maintain, low cost to buy, available in a wide variety of calibers/gauges. I have one in 223 which will give my Model 7 SS bolt a run for its money at 100 yds.

We did talk about drilling guns, so that's similar.

The more posts I read in this thread the more convinced I am that a tough bolt gun of reasonable size in .308 is the way to go. If I can fish, or trap small game why would I waste ammo shooting them?

I am thinking the same thing, except I am thinking "pump gun".

 

[goon]

You can walk into almost any home in America and find some kind of 12 ga. ammo.

No offense man, but that's kind of irrelevant.
Any ammo I have when things get out of hand is going to remain my ammo.
You'd be well advised to plan accordingly. If 12 gauge is your thing, start hitting up the local walmart every time you can afford some.
This is a good case for the .22LR - it's cheapest to buy, the lightest and smallest to pack, and still pretty versatile when you consider what it is. If someone came to me today and said "I been reading my tea leaves and they told me SHTF is coming tomorrow... Please tell me what gun to buy!"... I'd tell them to go buy a .22LR and 10 bricks of ammo.

It all illustrates though that what's ideal for me might not be ideal for you.
From what I've read, some of you southern guys don't have to worry at all about bears so you don't need something that will stop a bear.
I don't need to worry about Brown bears in my area so I don't need to worry about packing magnum shotgun slugs or heavy .45-70 loads (although a Guide gun is on my wish list).
Also, we have to consider the shooter. Is the shooter recoil sensitive? Expert, somewhat experienced, or total newbie? This is why the "ideals" are so hard to pin down.

For what it's worth, I also like lighter weight.
It's not necessary for me - I'm young and fairly stout so an 11 pound rifle isn't the end of the world.
But if I can get almost the same capability in a package that only weighs 7 pounds that's four more pounds of water, ammo, food, firemaking stuff, dry socks, 550 cord, or medical supplies I can have.
The firearm itself is very desireable but it's important to remember that it's not the only part of the equation.

Also, what about size?
Maybe if you could design it from the ground up with a good folding stock and/or the ability to break down into two halves that would be useful. Take-down rifles used to be popular so I'm sure it can be done.

Just brainstorming.

 

[Smaug]

Well, I only read about the first 10 posts or so, but here are what I see as desired features:

- Compact ammo, so I can carry a lot of it. 223 is way too big.
- Accurate, let's say 2 MoA
- Not too big or heavy

The ultimate cartridge to me would be something like a 22 Magnum. A bit more poop than the 22LR, but still compact. Lethal on game & humans out to probably 150 yards. Remember, for a SHTF rifle, you don't need to kill attackers, just wound them so they can't chase you. Head shots on any game animal will do the trick. Body shots on smaller game.

Seems like a 10/22, but modified to be reliable, would be pretty close to ideal. Bolts are too slow if one finds oneself surprised. 5 or 6 magazines and a simple, compact, fixed 4X scope.

Are you really going to design it, or is this hypothetical?

 

[Coal Dragger]

I am thinking the same thing, except I am thinking "pump gun".

A pump would also work, but they are not usually as strong as a bolt gun. They also may be more complicated parts wise and harder to clean.

To each his own though.

 

[Smaug]

Here's another idea. Double barrel, semi-auto 22LR or Mag on top, and a single shot 12 ga. on the bottom. What couldn't one do with such a combo?

 

[JShirley]

Nolo,

I responded initially here.

I really like pumps (slide-actions) a lot. BUT they aren't as sturdy, or typically as accurate as a bolt-action. You also can't hug the ground as tightly while working a slide as you can a bolt.

This rifle would be THE rifle you would use if you had to go minimalist. It would have to shoot foe and potential meals.

As I implied previously, a sturdy bolt-action is the most versatile rifle you're going to find. I would hope the reasons would be obvious, and if they're not, there's really no point in explaining.

John

 

[goon]

It for the most part hit point of aim and I got 3 of 5 shots in about a 1" circle. Two others shot low and right. For some reason, there was quite a bit of unburned powder in the barrel and I think this may have a negative effect on accuracy. Also, the buck I pulled was copper plated, so when I sized the balls, there were slivers of copper on the buck.
Soooo, I think next time, I'll try cleaning the barrel between shots and try to get my hands on some soft lead buckshot.

I've never tried any reduced loads but I was thinking about robbing a load of 00 buck just about an hour ago to try some in my 30-30. Since they're so small and softer than a jacketed round, I'd probably try just seating them with finger pressure or by pressing the casing down against the bench. The shot should swage down to the size of the case mouth.
Anyway, I've read that with reduced loads like you're trying it's sometimes difficult to get consitent powder ignition. Seems to be the case with yours judgeing by the unburned powder and inconsistency. IIRC, the way to get around that was to tip the barrel up in the air slightly before firing to move all the powder to the rear of the case so it will ignite more evenly.
Probably worth a try.
Also, check in the last pages of the 336 thread - there is a guy in there playing around with reduced 30-30 loads so maybe some of his info could give you a starting point.

 

[Nolo]

JShirley, yah, I read it. Maybe I should have paid more attention to it.
Glad the thread is back on track.

I really like pumps (slide-actions) a lot. BUT they aren't as sturdy, or typically as accurate as a bolt-action. You also can't hug the ground as tightly while working a slide as you can a bolt.

What about straight-pulls?

 

[35 Whelen]

Goon, I too thought I could seat with finger pressure, but it wasn't to be. My buck mic-ed at about .312" or so, much to big for the mouth of the .308 case. Part of the problem could be that the buck I used, as it was "Premium", was high antimony or "hard" lead. Come to think of it, they didn't exactly glide through the sizer die. I think I definitely need to find some cheap 00 buck to try.
Regarding the powder, I used Bullseye which is extemely fast burning. I also elevated the barrel between shots. I may try another powder. I use Red Dot quite a bit with cast loads in all my rifles.
As the experiment proceeds, I'll probably start a thread in the Handloading area.
35W

 

[Calhoun321]

I would like something along the lines of a Mini 30 with 10 and 20 rounds mags available. Of course I would want it to be durable and accurate and have lots of parts availability etc. etc. The lack of these things is why I will not be getting a Mini 30.

 

[Browning]

35 Whelen : In Post #38 of this thread, you'll find my idea of "something better". In the pic below, I'm you'll see the "wheezing toad" bent over a bull elk, killed with said 10 lb. rifle at a hair over 10,000 ft. It's about a 2 - 2 1/2 hour ride in by horseback. After skinning, quartering and packing a few hundred pounds of elk on the horses that day, I walked the whole way out.

Good thing you had that horse, otherwise you would have died trying to walk out ('wheeze').

You still haven't responded to this (which is what the thread's about, not your physical conditioning).

B35 : The term 'Keyboard Commando' is a term that people use when they want to try and ridicule someone's argument without really coming up with much to counter it. Other than the weight issue (which isn't a problem for people that are in shape) you haven't really come up with much to counter my suggestion.

If you're so in shape, what's the problem with the H&K 91 (it's 9.7 pounds) from a design perspective?

 

[Nolo]

If you're so in shape, what's the problem with the H&K 91 (it's 9.7 pounds) from a design perspective?

The problem is that weight, in most of the cases these guys are talking about (though no one has set out to think about my question about project parameters) doesn't buy you anything.
A 7lb rifle is much easier to manage than a 10lb battle rifle. And, honestly, the battle rifle doesn't give you much, anyways. If you were fighting a war, maybe. But we aren't talking about fighting a war.

 

[goon]

If you're so in shape, what's the problem with the H&K 91 (it's 9.7 pounds) from a design perspective?

Is that loaded or empty?
If loaded, you're up to about 11 pounds.
Now consider a loaded bolt action .308 - Even scoped it will probably come in under 8 pounds, maybe even under 7.
That's 60 more rounds of ammunition you could carry. Or about a half a gallon of water, or a lot of band-aids, or some rice.
Plus, how many magazines are you going to carry?
They're made of something and the weight will eventaully add up.
It's not so much the weight of the rifle itself though - its the fact that you'll have to give something else up that you might need to carry that weight.

Nolo -

Maybe a good bolt action with...
- Good iron peep sights, maybe with flip aperatures for 200 and 400 meter settings (patterned from FAL Para or M-16A1 rear sights).
- elevation adjustable post front sight.
- Synthetic stock
- Durable finish, maybe even stainless steel with a nonreflective finish on top of that. Something like Ruger's "target grey"
- .308 with chamber adapter for .32 H&R mag, 30 carbine, or .32 ACP or with some sort of reduced load
- detachable magazines - maybe M1A or FAL mags
- charger guide

This is starting to look a lot like a scout rifle.
Best of all, someone has already done a lot of the leg work for you. Now all you have to do is listen.

 

[Coal Dragger]

See post #51.

*gratuitous patting self on back*

 

[ThomasT]

35 Whelen your on the right track with your 30 caliber bullet mould. Once again I would refer you to wwwleverguns.com. Paco kelly has done a quite a bit of experimenting with reduced loads. Most of it in 30-30s.

If you don't want to mess with casting try some Hornady 32 caliber 94 gr SWC bullets. You may have to size them down. Also try some tightgroup and red dot powder.

I like any action that will function mechanicaly without relying on pressure from a round. Those are the pumps, levers, slides and single shots and of course bolt actions. I really like revolvers too.

I'm not locked in to any one action or round. Most small rounds will do far more work than some folks give them credit for. I do like light weight guns and thats for sure.

Try to get a copy of the book I wrote about earlier. Its an eye opener.

 

[35 Whelen]

If you don't want to mess with casting try some Hornady 32 caliber 94 gr SWC bullets.

Did you say mess with casting?!?!? I while the hours away looking for any excuse to cast! I can't find the article by Paco. Do you have a link? He writes some really good stuff. I used to use his Apache Blue bullet lube, but I think he's discontinued it.

I like any action that will function mechanicaly without relying on pressure from a round. Those are the pumps, levers, slides and single shots and of course bolt actions.

Agreed!

35W

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hey Whelen, I thought you were bowing out of the thread! J/K.

 

[35 Whelen]

Hey Whelen, I thought you were bowing out of the thread! J/K.

Bowing out of the pi$$ing contest with "Browning". Actually, taken it to PM's. I find most guys lose interest quick in PM's I suppose because they're not on the board where everyone can read their drivel!

35W

 

[stiletto raggio]

Having owned a standard-weight M1A and a Saage Scout, I find a .308 kicks a bit much for rapid and controlled fire in the event of human-on-human action. I live in the lower 48, and dangerous humans are much, much more common than even a slightly ornery critter.

To me, a survival rifle is something that will perform "okay" in any circumstance. As a guy who owns umpteen guns, I will likely never be in a situation where I have to pick one and head for the hills. But if I did, it would be my Bushmaster Carbon 15, specifically the 97S.

At 4.3 lbs naked, it is very light and has rugged and precise iron sights. With a Mueller 2-7x32 IR scope, ambidextrous safety, and a broad 3-point sling, it still weighs under 6 pounds with a loaded magazine and is dangerous to humans at least to 300 meters. Close in and with the scope turned down, it is fast on target and light enough to handle and fire single-handed if necessary, and I have practiced single handed shooting with both right and left hands. Not easy, not particularly precise, but certainly good enough to cover yourself if you are wounded or dragging a buddy to cover.

The .223 round is proven against humans (especially with good HP ammo) and with FMJ and head shots, should take any game in the lower 48 fi need be. It recoils lightly and is extremely common. The magazines are the most common rifle mags in the US. Also, if the S H's The F, I want to be able to use GI ammo, and 5.56 is the only rifle-caliber ammo a regular unit will have. 7.62? Yeah,it is belted and built for machineguns, so it has "dispersion" built into the powder charges. Not good for use in rifles.

Last, as previously mentioned, I would have either a .22 adaptor or a complete replacement upper. Personally, I would rather carry a suppressed .22 pistol, but we are playing the one gun game.

Now, exercise aside, I would A) bring friends B) bring several more guns with common ammo, and C) bring my camping supplies. I can't see a situation in which I would purposely abandon my house or at least my vehicle unless said structures were burned or flooded out. Shelter is one of the keys to survival, and no gun or combination of guns can provide it.

 

[Chuck Spears]

No offense man, but that's kind of irrelevant.
Any ammo I have when things get out of hand is going to remain my ammo.

I think it is highly relevant. If you run out of supplies and have to go searching for ammo, then needing a common round would become very important. If your survival scenario is for a limited amount of time you can be fine with your stored ammo. But if it turns into something long term you are going to be wishing you were searching for some .30-06 or .308 rather than some kind of exotic or less popular round.