Requirements Set For Ultimate Survival Rifle
- Thread starter Nolo
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Nolo
Member
Yes, but in a prolonged survival/disaster situation, reloading becomes more important, because you inevitably have a base of operations, whether that be a truck, a cabin, what have you.
I imagine the Dragunov, properly modded, could fit the bill.
Never happen. It's a mechanical device, and as such, it's subject to failure. As Larry Correia says, if your firearm has never malfunctioned, you haven't shot it enough.
My suggestions for a disaster rifle are a sturdy bolt-action with low-power scope in a common caliber. A CZ-527 7.62x39mm would be a good choice in a lot of ways. If ammo were common/cheap enough, I'd prefer a 6.5x39mm in the same platform, since that would effectively double the useful range.
If I could only have one rifle for everything that might need doing, I would choose a 1917 in 7mm Remington Magnum. (A company was making them perhaps 10 years ago, and I can't find them now, but one of those, with a low-power optic, would be my first choice.) I'd also like a small rail for attaching a white light for night defense or hunting.
John
That's not true, you can still reload brass fired from an H&K 91/PTR even if it has some flute marks on it.
You wouldn't get the same brass life out of it that you would from a bolt action rifle or a semi-auto rifle that was a little bit more gentle with the brass when it was fired and ejected, but rest assured you can still use brass after it's been fired out of a H&K 91/PTR/G-3/Cetme rifle with a fluted chamber.
The damage to the brass is largely cosmetic, it doesn't damage it structurally and it's going to be pressed out anyway as you're reloading it. Plus you can lessen the scratches to the brass when it's being fired out of the H&K family of rifles by installing what is known as a 'Port Buffer'.
http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FG&Product_Code=1174&Category_Code=HKA+HK91G3+OTHER
Well what do you mean when you say that you're going to 'design' your survival rifle?
Are you just drawing something up mentally for the fun of it, but without any real plans of seeing it through (there's nothing wrong with it if that's what this thread is about)? Or is this something that's actually going to come to pass and there will actually be a real survival rifle as the result of this thread?
If there is going to be a real firearm as a result of this thread and it isn't just for the mental exercise then are you more interested in a modest start of trying to produce a single shot or bolt action rifle? Or can it be semi-auto rifle?
Do you have CNC milling machines for the recievers, polymer injection molding and/or tools for wood working those materials into stocks and furniture for your rifle? At the very least do you have a machine shop at your disposal where any of this could actually happen?
If you actually have all these tools at your disposal and the skill to use them why don't you already have some ideas of what to make on your own without consulting strangers over what features are desirable over a semi-anonymous firearms forum?
See my point?
I was just merely trying to help you find a rifle that would meet your established criterea already since most people don't have CNC milling machines and a way of producing wood or polymer socks in their hip pocket. If you want to hop all over me for doing that, then that's fine. Just trying to throw in a little reality into this thread.
Nolo
Member
I see your point, but that doesn't mean you can ignore the OP. Your arguments are valid (not necessarily correct, but valid), but they are arguments for a different discussion than the one we are having here.
I am talking to these folks on here because they know more than I. I want to pick their brains. It's a learning experience. If you want to use a PTR-91 for SHTF/survival, that's fine. Unless you can highlight the good and bad about that rifle and give me an effective analysis of those features and synthesis of the best set of features, well then, just listen, because the guys who can are the ones worth paying attention to.
I'd venture a guess that the people who have responded properly to the OP are the ones throwing a little reality into the thread, not you. You're just aggravating.
Nolo
Member
Ummm... Wow? Did I just get insulted on THR?
Not the first time it's happened to me... But it is the first time I ever thought they were wrong.
K.
So, back to making a survival rifle...
The kind of rifle we're aiming for varies with the level of man-on-man combat that the wielder will see. Is there any way to try and establish parameters for this that give us a reasonable scope of use? Is there an action that can cover enough of the bases (I am thinking pump).
Chuck Spears
member
It should be heavy. Weight is a sign of reliability. If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it.
dispatch55126
Member
Its a combat rifle, not a competition rifle. Who cares if it mangles the brass as long as it goes bang when it's suppose to.
Nolo
Member
The people who don't have enough ammo and have to reload with BP do...
The Chautchat was heavy...
Nolo - I can't speak for others but with the FAL, it's possible to tune the ejector so that it flings the brass in a slightly different arc, thus mitigating the brass smacking the reciever cover. One FAL I owned didn't touch the brass at all.
The reason the militaries of the world don't build their rifles to not mangle brass is because they don't care about brass. They police it up at the range and sell it to scrap dealers but reloading isn't a concern to them.
But even with a regular FAL or AR, the brass is usually not so badly mangled as to not be reused. You don't get as many loadings and sometimes a case mouth gets dinged pretty bad, but it is reusable.
If you can find it...
For reduced loads it's possible to turn the gas valve to shut the gas off entirely. But I don't know how many rounds a FAL would take before your little lead 00 buck small game loads started clogging the gas port.
Backed into a corner or if you decided you positively needed to keep your brass, it can be used as a straight-pull bolt action with little difficulty.
It's also possible to adjust the gas to cycle with lighter loads or vent some more gas out if you need to run some heavier loads through it.
And you can get to the gas system on a FAL. On an AK it's a little harder but on a FAL you can take it down and eventually look right down through the gas port.
I don't know if this is good or not, but it is what it is. Personally, I've gotten rust in the gas systems of the FAL's I've owned so I was glad to be able to get them apart. I've also not had that problem with AK's - go figure.
Overally, the versatility is good but the complexity is bad. Still, it's served something like 90 countries with few complaints.
Another consideration - cost.
How much is your ideal survival rifle going to cost me to buy?
If I can get 90% of the capability of your "ideal" rifle out of a $200 30-30 and your rifle is going to cost me $1K, guess what I'm going to spend my money on?
FWIW, I've never owned a pump action rifle but a lot of guys in my area hunt with the Remington 760 or 7600 rifles and I rarely hear complaints about them. If you think they might work, maybe try a 10K round torture test on one to see how it holds up.
Yes, I know the AK will run for a zillion rounds without breaking. Unfortunately, I will not run that long. If I can get a good rifle that will run for 10,000 rounds I'm sure it will still outlive me.
Since you're interested in trying something "new"...
If you determine that the 7600 series (or some other rifle) is a suitable base, maybe it would make sense to start picking them up used and customizing them or doing custom work for current owners - kind of like Wild West guns does with the Marlin lever actions.
The reason the militaries of the world don't build their rifles to not mangle brass is because they don't care about brass. They police it up at the range and sell it to scrap dealers but reloading isn't a concern to them.
But even with a regular FAL or AR, the brass is usually not so badly mangled as to not be reused. You don't get as many loadings and sometimes a case mouth gets dinged pretty bad, but it is reusable.
If you can find it...
For reduced loads it's possible to turn the gas valve to shut the gas off entirely. But I don't know how many rounds a FAL would take before your little lead 00 buck small game loads started clogging the gas port.
Backed into a corner or if you decided you positively needed to keep your brass, it can be used as a straight-pull bolt action with little difficulty.
It's also possible to adjust the gas to cycle with lighter loads or vent some more gas out if you need to run some heavier loads through it.
And you can get to the gas system on a FAL. On an AK it's a little harder but on a FAL you can take it down and eventually look right down through the gas port.
I don't know if this is good or not, but it is what it is. Personally, I've gotten rust in the gas systems of the FAL's I've owned so I was glad to be able to get them apart. I've also not had that problem with AK's - go figure.
Overally, the versatility is good but the complexity is bad. Still, it's served something like 90 countries with few complaints.
Another consideration - cost.
How much is your ideal survival rifle going to cost me to buy?
If I can get 90% of the capability of your "ideal" rifle out of a $200 30-30 and your rifle is going to cost me $1K, guess what I'm going to spend my money on?
FWIW, I've never owned a pump action rifle but a lot of guys in my area hunt with the Remington 760 or 7600 rifles and I rarely hear complaints about them. If you think they might work, maybe try a 10K round torture test on one to see how it holds up.
Yes, I know the AK will run for a zillion rounds without breaking. Unfortunately, I will not run that long. If I can get a good rifle that will run for 10,000 rounds I'm sure it will still outlive me.
Since you're interested in trying something "new"...
If you determine that the 7600 series (or some other rifle) is a suitable base, maybe it would make sense to start picking them up used and customizing them or doing custom work for current owners - kind of like Wild West guns does with the Marlin lever actions.
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Nolo
Member
Sorry. Just wrong word choice.
Good post, goon.
How could you possibly get THAT out of what I said?
Boy, you're looking to be aggravated and offended. I think that this guy is right.
I just meant (now that I know that this discussion isn't about actually finding a solution to a particular real world problem and that it's just a mental exercise for the fun of it) have fun with having a discussion about which design features that would be an asset on a hypothetical survival rifle.
In my first post I tried to list as many positive things to say about the H&K 91 system as I could think of (most of them having to do with being durable and reliable). That's originally what I thought the thread was about. Since it isn't what it's about I was taking my leave.
Jeez.
Nolo
Member
Okay, I apologize. I gathered differently from what you said. I thought I made the OP pretty clear, seems I did not.
I thank you for respecting my mental exercise. Nearly all my posts on THR are for info-gathering purposes.
cliffy
member
Post Appoctaliptic Survival
AR-10 in .243 Winchester or Remington Mod 700 in .243 Winnie Pooh. Going into a deserted gunshop, what ammo would one likely find in boxes on the shelves? Most .223 Remington fare would likely have been scarfed-up by prior "shoppers," so with left-overs one would likely find some .243 fare. "Shop" Wal-Mart for a good selection. A .270 Winchester would toast any squirrel into inedible scraps. .223 Remington fare would swifty become difficult to find. Reload or Die, might become the only bastion of survival after a couple years of rough conditions. Having both a .223 and a .243 would be advantagious. cliffy
AR-10 in .243 Winchester or Remington Mod 700 in .243 Winnie Pooh. Going into a deserted gunshop, what ammo would one likely find in boxes on the shelves? Most .223 Remington fare would likely have been scarfed-up by prior "shoppers," so with left-overs one would likely find some .243 fare. "Shop" Wal-Mart for a good selection. A .270 Winchester would toast any squirrel into inedible scraps. .223 Remington fare would swifty become difficult to find. Reload or Die, might become the only bastion of survival after a couple years of rough conditions. Having both a .223 and a .243 would be advantagious. cliffy
35 Whelen
Member
Browning wrote:
LOL...sounds like something my teenage kids would say. Wait....maybe it IS one of my teenage kids on here trolling!! Todd? Is that you??
I've never been in a survival situation, but I have tromped around at 10,000+ feet while hunting elk. Based on my experience, the LAST think you want slung over your shoulder is a damned 10 lb. rifle. I own one, and it's exhausting to lug up and down mountains. For that matter, it's a pain to lug around on flat land. Add to that a pistol grip and 20 round mag (OH yeah, the full 20 round magazine will add about another pound to the weight of the rifle) hanging out the bottom to both snag on vegetation and bang against tree trunks, and it sounds to me like the gargantuan, 11 lb. Keyboard Kommando rifle is ill-suited for what we're talking about here.
You know, the guys who talk about the lever action 357's have a pretty good point. They'd be excellent game getters and a plethora of loads could be fired through them; everything from light round nose bullets for small game to shot loads for (really)close up shooting of birds, to heavy 180 gr. cast bullets for larger game. In my mind, their only draw back is their limited range.
35W
LOL...sounds like something my teenage kids would say. Wait....maybe it IS one of my teenage kids on here trolling!! Todd? Is that you??
I've never been in a survival situation, but I have tromped around at 10,000+ feet while hunting elk. Based on my experience, the LAST think you want slung over your shoulder is a damned 10 lb. rifle. I own one, and it's exhausting to lug up and down mountains. For that matter, it's a pain to lug around on flat land. Add to that a pistol grip and 20 round mag (OH yeah, the full 20 round magazine will add about another pound to the weight of the rifle) hanging out the bottom to both snag on vegetation and bang against tree trunks, and it sounds to me like the gargantuan, 11 lb. Keyboard Kommando rifle is ill-suited for what we're talking about here.
You know, the guys who talk about the lever action 357's have a pretty good point. They'd be excellent game getters and a plethora of loads could be fired through them; everything from light round nose bullets for small game to shot loads for (really)close up shooting of birds, to heavy 180 gr. cast bullets for larger game. In my mind, their only draw back is their limited range.
35W
Nolo
Member
I am rather surprised that .35 Remington has not been mentioned.
Seems to be a pretty versatile caliber for a variety of uses.
(Not to mention barrel inserts could be had for .357 and all them)
Seems to be a pretty versatile caliber for a variety of uses.
(Not to mention barrel inserts could be had for .357 and all them)
No, it's not me dad.
I've hunted with both an FAL or an M1A before and I don't remember being exhausted.
It's only 'exhausting' if you don't exercise regularly.
The term 'Keyboard Commando' is a term that people use when they want to try and ridicule someone's argument without really coming up with much to counter it. Other than the weight issue (which isn't a problem for people that are in shape) you haven't really come up with much to counter my suggestion.
I've hunted with both an FAL or an M1A before and I don't remember being exhausted.
It's only 'exhausting' if you don't exercise regularly.
The term 'Keyboard Commando' is a term that people use when they want to try and ridicule someone's argument without really coming up with much to counter it. Other than the weight issue (which isn't a problem for people that are in shape) you haven't really come up with much to counter my suggestion.
kfrancis2001
Member
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2006
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I have an AR-15 and I have the Winchester and Marlin versions of a 30-30. If it came down to true survival I would pick my Mossberg 500A. Have 28'' bird barrel for small game and slugster barrel for large game. At 20 yards anyone that can hold the gun up can defend themself with it. Put the rifled slug barrel on and you can kill any large game in North America. You can walk into almost any home in America and find some kind of 12 ga. ammo.
Nolo
Member
Okay, Browning, really. I respect that you were confused as to the goal of this thread before, but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from posting anything that is not constructive. It's just silly.
35 Whelen, don't respond to his posts, please.
I don't want to be ordering people around, but I have so far garnered a lot of info from this thread and I would rather that continue than it just turn into a childish slapping match.
He wrote a post that talked about weight as an issue in a survival rifle and quoted my post.
Was I not supposed to respond?
If someone wants to ridicule my suggestion for a survival rifle them I'm going to respond and ask them to come up with something better than insults. Is this survival rifle of yours supposed to be as light and handy as an umbrella for wheezing toads who measure their hunts in feet?
10/22plinker
Member
Caliber
I believe there is a good cartridge out there if it is street legal or not im not up to date i think its 6.5 grendel? and you can get an m4/ar15 upper receiver then build around that acog maybe?
I believe there is a good cartridge out there if it is street legal or not im not up to date i think its 6.5 grendel? and you can get an m4/ar15 upper receiver then build around that acog maybe?
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