Why the AK's magwell is better than the AR's...

Hmmmm. Some shaky assumptions going into the thread, from what I see:

Can change mags just as fast as an AR's*.

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No.

Also, trying to change an AK magazine at speed, under stress, is much more likely to result in the ever fun "fumble, miss, fumble, miss, fumble, miss" school of magazine reloading, where the user can't quite get the motion down and the mag locked into the front of the well. Seen it happen on a number of occasions, from a number of otherwise competent shooters.

-Provides positive ejection of the spent mag*, which the AR's doesn't.

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Only if you do the mag-slaps-mag technique.

All magazines fall out of my issue M4A1's magwell if I hit the button. This means I can be digging for my ready mag with my non-firing hand while dropping the current mag. Better economy of motion compared to the AK technique. The AK mag slap can be fast, but it won't ever beat time for mag changes on an AR assuming two shooters of equal skill and ability.

Is simpler to design, manufacture, grok and use.

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The first couple are of no interest to an end user.

The last two aren't really true, in my experience. As I noted above, I've seen a number of shooters who can't get an AK reloaded under stress for time while doing various courses of fire. I've never seen this problem with an AR shooter. Seems to me that the AR magwell, therefore, is more user friendly and easier to master.

-Is easier to train grunts on (the AR magwell requires the coordination of two hands. The AK magwell only requires that one hand do any work.)

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I hit a button with my trigger finger, my non-firing hand does all the work on an AR.

With an AK I either do the same thing, with less positive ejection of the mag, or use the AK mag slap technique (which, I admit, is preferable, but utterly pointless when a guy under stress misses the mag release with the new mag -- seen that happen, too).

Having trained grunts on the AK and AR, I give the AR the nod in being easier to become proficient with relatively fast reloads. At the high end, good shooters will always clock faster reloads with the AR.

-Is more flexible (AK magwells can, if machined out, accept mags with OALs of anywhere from 0-70.0mm, with the use of a simple restrictor plate**; also, the AK's magwell allows the use of super-wide rounds, like 20 and 12 gauge.).

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Another issue that is of no interest to a military end user, though it can be nice for everyone who likes Saiga shotguns.

-Allows the use of AK mags, which are both plentiful and robust***.

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Part one is no real interest to a real end user -- AR mags are a whole lot more plentiful in the US military than AK mags, for instance.

Part two . . . well, AK mags are pretty robust, but (not unlike the AK itself) they're nowhere near as indestructible as the internet makes them out to be. I've seen non-functional ones due to bad springs, dents in body (admittedly, those would normally function with some rounds loaded), bent feed lips (more common on bakelite AK-74 mags) and various other problems.

-Is fully ambidextrous, and simply so (AR's require a whole separate lever assembly to be fully ambidextrous).

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This is a strength of the AK, though it's basically 100% offset, in terms of speed and ergonomics, by the fact that the AK charging handle is not ambidextrous and has to be manipulated during a mag change due to the lack of a BHO.

FWIW, to the original post, I do not think the AK's magwell is superior to the AR's; the AR system has a slight edge. But the AK system is not as inferior as some would make it out to be; it's just different, and must be run differently.

There appears to be some confusion as to how to change an AK mag quickly.


For right hander mag changes:

First retrieve mag from pouch with your left hand. Bullets down and to the left side of the body should be best for everyone.

Second take fresh magazine, and swipe the mag release paddle with the bullet side of the fresh mag. In turn the fresh mag makes contact with the old mag and rocks it out. The old mag goes flying. It is much quicker than removing it with your empty hand first.

Then rock the mag in.

Then reach under the gun with your left hand and charge the gun.

For left hander mag changes:

First retrieve mag from pouch with your right hand. Bullets down and to the right side of the body should be best for everyone.

Second take fresh magazine, and swipe the mag release paddle with the bullet side of the fresh mag. In turn the fresh mag makes contact with the old mag and rocks it out. The old mag goes flying. It is much quicker than removing it with your empty hand first.

Then rock the mag in.

Then reach up with your right hand and charge the gun.

Your left hand never leaves the pistol grip.


Good for the original poster for thinking of a better mousetrap. You also seem to have a level a maturity that some of us lack, myself included sometimes.

Good for the original poster for thinking of a better mousetrap. You also seem to have a level a maturity that some of us lack, myself included sometimes.

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He's gonna be famous someday for designing firearms I swear. We can all say we knew him when.......

I was in the Marine Corps for 4 years and work with an Agency that uses AR15s for 12 years. I bought an AR receiver to build a weapon and after purchasing my AK I found I had NO reason to keep the AR project anymore. The different mag situation did take a minute to get used to but I have no problems with it now. With a little practice mag changes are very easy. While the mag changes with the AR are a little easier the design of the AK mags is vastly superior. The AR uses (for the most part) cheap, aluminum mags. When seating them properly on the reload they will get deformed over time. I can't see that happening with the quality steel mags I have for my AK. I have also seen them inserted backwards NUMEROUS times. When they slap the mag in they tend to do a good job of jamming it in the weapon. Under stress this will completely disable the weapon and I think this is even easier to do than jamming an AK mag in the wrong way.
Steel mags even the field little with the AR but I still think the general design of the AK is a more robust and reliable design from mags to the operating system. It also doesn't resolve the problem of installing the mag backwards. The bottom line is which ever one you use you need to practice and train with it to be proficient. Both weapons are very effective for their given purpose.

There's a lot of "if we're already doing it, why change it?" out there. I am not arguing against you, but the argument that "if they're not using it, it must be crap" stifles innovation.

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Because there's such a thing as a mature technology. The 1911 design is a century old, and while it's been through a million variations the pistol being produced today by Springfield, Taurus, Colt, etc is fundamentally the same thing as the original. New does not necessarily mean better, and better (at one thing) does not necessarily mean better (as a whole).

I think it's fairly safe to say that right now we're seeing more people out there designing and building firearms than at any point in history, with more pressure to improve than ever before. Numerous routes have been tried over the years of achieving various ends, but the majority have faded away and been supplanted by what we see today. There are undoubtedly advances out there yet to be made, but they're going to be "outside of the box" solutions we can't predict, not mimicry of obsolete designs.

Anyways, this whole discussion can be solved quite simply. Go play with some AR-15s and AKs, and try doing speed reloads with each. Try different models and magazines with both, and then try doing it under time pressure (in a competitive situation, if possible). I'm not an instructor or a HiSp/LoDr type, but I've handled and shot far more than enough of both types to know. There really truly isn't any debate here.

He's gonna be famous someday for designing firearms I swear. We can all say we knew him when.......

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Maybe we even say we helped him.... (well, not me, as i haven't responded to this thread yet)

I have as of yet to fire a AK, over just holding one, but on my AR it is very easy to switch mags, and to do so without bashing one mag on another.

On numerous AR-AK threads here I have always come down on the AK's side for several reasons, so I'm surprised to now do the opposite.
I learned to shoot (well) in the Marines two decades ago, my first gun purchase ever was back then,a Colt car-15 ( as we called 'em) and I still have it, but after being bitten by the AK bug a couple years ago, i now think it's the superior platform. I'm saying this not to hi-jack or start a flame war, but to show that I'm biased toward the AK when I say I think the AR magwell design is better.
AR mags insert at mach-speed,every time,in the dark, standing on your head, no fiddling, no headaches. I've gotten AK mags stuck in the wrong way many times, having to wrestle them loose,then try again, sometimes a couple more times. Never happened to me with an AR. My 2 cents.

Because there's such a thing as a mature technology. The 1911 design is a century old, and while it's been through a million variations the pistol being produced today by Springfield, Taurus, Colt, etc is fundamentally the same thing as the original. New does not necessarily mean better, and better (at one thing) does not necessarily mean better (as a whole).

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Then do you say, that the new polymer pistols are no better than the 1911? There IS a such thing as mature DESIGN, but no such thing as mature TECHNOLOGY, IMO. There will ALWAYS be more ways of improving things, while some things will go unimproved for awhile. this is to say that some designs are still "advanced" while being old.

Look at muzzleloaders. there are new ones that use smokeless powder, and far exceed the range and accuracy of 100 year old designs.

this is my 2c

I agree that IF you practice a whole heck of a lot and IF you don't get unlucky, a very skilled AK operator can do a reload-from-empty mag switch about as fast as a novice AR operator.

I'm still waiting to see a lightning fast reload-with-retention drill for the AK.

Really, it is what it is. The AK magazine system has many advantages over the AR magazine system, and the AR magazine system has a lot of advantages over the AK magazine system. They each have different strengths, and they each have different weaknesses. And, as usual, I think too much can be made of either one. They both work, they just do it differently.

Mike

Coronach said:

Really, it is what it is. The AK magazine system has many advantages over the AR magazine system, and the AR magazine system has a lot of advantages over the AK magazine system. They each have different strengths, and they each have different weaknesses. And, as usual, I think too much can be made of either one. They both work, they just do it differently.

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I could not have said it any more clearly.

Just from reading these posts, it honestly appears that this is an apples and oranges comparison anyway. Ford vs Chevy.

I for one much prefer the AR magwell design, as it works better for me than the AK design, as does the AR design in general. But I completely respect those who find the AK magwell design better because it works better for them. Nothing wrong with that.

This would be a painfully boring, drab world if we all liked the same things.

wise beyond his years.....

What!!!!! You Insult Me!!!!

I can flatter anyone i want!!!!!

and so, the thread is derailed

They both work, they just do it differently.

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There's no room for your "they both work and let's all be happy" approach. Straight lock is better than rock and lock because it's easier to work with.

Anything easier to work with, than the example before it, equals improvement.

the design of the AK mags is vastly superior. The AR uses (for the most part) cheap, aluminum mags. When seating them properly on the reload they will get deformed over time. I can't see that happening with the quality steel mags I have for my AK.

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Seriously? Again? We are talking about the way they lock in, not the mag quality but since you want to go there, so will I.

You say AK mags are better than AR mags in general, I agree. However, what if you're trying to create the cheapest and most durable mag for the two rifles?

You'd go with polymer first because it's cheap and doesn't dent. You can get away with a FULLY POLYMER mag for the AR and similar rifles (STANAG4179 compatible) because they lock from the left side, about a 4th or a 3rd down the mags length. There's plenty of mass above the locking area to hold the mags weight. Further more, because these rifles have deep mag wells, you can't put enough strain on the back or front of the mag to snap off any lugs........oh wait, stanag mags don't have lugs! Or you could snap off the mag well

You couldn't have a successful all polymer mag with rock and lock AK style operation for combat purposes, otherwise EVERYBODY would be praising Pro-Mag. LOL These types of mags need to have steel reinforcement that makes up the locking lugs in order to have the durability the steel mags have. Otherwise if you drop your rifle by accident or bumped the mag too hard against the environment, one of the polymer locking lugs could break right off because rock and lock mag wells need to be very shallow, and is therefore easier to put strain on the mag and breaking it right out of the mag well. And putting in a steel skeleton in the mag means possibly higher costs.

There's no room for your "they both work and let's all be happy" approach. Straight lock is better than rock and lock because it's easier to work with.

Anything easier to work with, than the example before it, equals improvement.

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OTOH, the AK mags are about a bajillion times stronger than USGI mag (remember, I'm talking about the mag system, not just the locking mechanism), although this can be ameliorated with better mags (PMAG, etc). Also, once you get the AK mag in the latch, the lockup is quite positive. You rarely have the problem which you can easily get with AR mags of not locking in and dropping free. Also, the AR system is very senstive to mag damage and anything that gums up the works (mud, etc). The AK? notsomuch.

Now, that said, the straight insertion is faster, no question, and you can overcome the not-locking propblems by slapping it in assertively and tugging to check (which detracts slightly from the speed). Doing reload-with-retention is all AR, all the time.

To recap, the systems have different advantages and disadvantages. They both work. The AR has a speed advantage. The AK's lockup is more positive and robust. All this

Anything easier to work with, than the example before it, equals improvement.

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is saying is that YOU favor ergonomics over mechanics. You have a point, and I even agree with you, but the differences (good and bad) are not that great with either system. You just have to recognize what is strong and what is weak and work with it.

Mike

Perhap you had better expound on the restrictor plate idea. A sketch, perhaps?

I'm fashionably late and only read page 1.

I have limited experience with a brand new WASR-10 that had problems with the mag release being waaay too tight and not budging. That being said, it seems to me that the act of pushing forward on the release with a fresh mag is an extra step in comparison to the AR, in which you press the button with your strong hand while your weak hand grabs a mag. The AK reload may not be "slow" but the mag can not be dropped efficiently with the strong hand on the grip, which for me puts the AK behind the AR for ease of reloading. Then again, I have fingers that may be longer than others. Also, a lefty would have to hit the button with the mag or with the weak hand, but that puts them equal.

Also, you could make the argument that you can buy a mag well upgrade (normally seen in competition) that increases the size of the hole. Looks goofy, heard it works well.

Edit: As I said my AK experience is restricted to drooling and a virgin WASR-10; Do AK's not have a bolt catch? I suppose you won't have problems with the bolt putting pressure on the mag due to design, but with an AR you press the button and off you go. On the other hand, a closed bolt and a full mag makes Jack an unhappy boy sometimes. But then again, we are talking for a new design so that would be addressed I'm sure.

have fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz5LPaMhlOc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkg530TvniA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lii1mrsT6D4&NR=1

i dont think we can, because they are both different designs

edit: thinking about it.... the G36 is a mix of both worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj7KyY3YUr8