My point, Spaceman, is that they DO have a lawful right (in Arkansas) to detain/question you. Think of them what you want, but YOU'RE the one who might end up in a lot of trouble, just because you want to prove to them that they are not "real" cops.
If a Security Guard ask.
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Mastrogiacomo
Member
Well I'm not a cop but I do have the right to detain you or ask you to comply with a policy. If you don't, my job ends and I call in the cops that do my job and mess up your day royally. Think of how much easier it'd be on the person giving me the trouble to just do what I ask -- and nicely. I'm never rude, God knows why people would think so little of what I do. I'm there to protect the public. By the way, the apartment I guarded had this policy because of the terrorist threat to high rise apartments. Residents weren't happy with the check everyone rule but a few were very happy to see me. I got coffee and offers for food from some of the folks.
Really interesting--
First -- Mastrogiacomo
EXACTLY -- and if you put your hands on a sensible person they would "taking them down in a painful way"--- take you down as you recommend--
Second --Ladybug
Yup--
If I'm held for shoplifting I would wait patiently for the Security guard to summon Police -- (If they do not wait wih me I would leave)--
Upon arrival I would refuse the voluntary search and allow the custodial or incident to arrest search by the LEO --therby increasing my distress immesurably and adding to the monetary value of the impending suit for false detention and arrest --suit against the Security Guard and the business enmploying said guard--
The LEO's report would support that suit -
Mastrogiacomo
Not a good position to be in --I feel for you --None of the authority and all of the responsibility===
As to being armed -- I couldn't agree more -- If you are in uniform you should be armed--
Armed BG won't check to see if you are carrying -- they just see badge and assume gun--
First -- Mastrogiacomo
EXACTLY -- and if you put your hands on a sensible person they would "taking them down in a painful way"--- take you down as you recommend--
Second --Ladybug
Yup--
If I'm held for shoplifting I would wait patiently for the Security guard to summon Police -- (If they do not wait wih me I would leave)--
Upon arrival I would refuse the voluntary search and allow the custodial or incident to arrest search by the LEO --therby increasing my distress immesurably and adding to the monetary value of the impending suit for false detention and arrest --suit against the Security Guard and the business enmploying said guard--
The LEO's report would support that suit -
Mastrogiacomo
Not a good position to be in --I feel for you --None of the authority and all of the responsibility===
As to being armed -- I couldn't agree more -- If you are in uniform you should be armed--
Armed BG won't check to see if you are carrying -- they just see badge and assume gun--
Carlos
Member
A security guard will certainly get my due respect and cooperation, as any human being deserves. However no security guard will ever search me, my bags, my car. So, call for backup. I really don't care. By the time they arrive, I'll be long gone, unless you intend to lay hands on me, at which time "you'll" go down. I'm no lawbreaker and I generally don't like wannabe authority figures. Hope that's clear.
Cops, on the other hand, will get my cooperation, including their right to search me.
Cops, on the other hand, will get my cooperation, including their right to search me.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
i'm not trying to start an argument, and its certainly not about proving to security personnel that they are not *real* cops.
i've worked in retail before that had plainclothes security. they kept an eye not only on customers but also employees. as far as customers were concerned, they could put a shoplifter in cuffs, and hold them until police arrived. i was friends with most of the security staff, and i knew that they never detained or held anyone that was not a shoplifter. they only moved in when they personally saw the shoplifter in the act.
ladybug, your tone suggests that if a person doesnt do what you tell them to do you go out of your way to make their life miserable. i hope thats not hte case. if it is, well it fits the definition of JBT. thats just my opinion though.
i've worked in retail before that had plainclothes security. they kept an eye not only on customers but also employees. as far as customers were concerned, they could put a shoplifter in cuffs, and hold them until police arrived. i was friends with most of the security staff, and i knew that they never detained or held anyone that was not a shoplifter. they only moved in when they personally saw the shoplifter in the act.
ladybug, your tone suggests that if a person doesnt do what you tell them to do you go out of your way to make their life miserable. i hope thats not hte case. if it is, well it fits the definition of JBT. thats just my opinion though.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
In Alabama a police officer working a second job as a
SO; has the same powers as a regular SO, NONE!
But, most likely he and/or she will make a note of
it in their pocket notebook for future reference.
My thought's have always been and continue to be, a
sworn LEO is a Police Officer/Deputy Sheriff first; and a
security officer second. Therefore, the powers of arrest
should be maintained throughout their employment. Perps
can and will appear anywhere, and everywhere.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
SO; has the same powers as a regular SO, NONE!
But, most likely he and/or she will make a note of
it in their pocket notebook for future reference.
My thought's have always been and continue to be, a
sworn LEO is a Police Officer/Deputy Sheriff first; and a
security officer second. Therefore, the powers of arrest
should be maintained throughout their employment. Perps
can and will appear anywhere, and everywhere.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
DMK
Member
You do mean verbally detain someone, right? ie. "Wait there a moment", "Stay there while I check this out", etc.
Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.
EDIT: Man, this is a fast moving thread! That's six posts up already!
Mastrogiacomo
Member
Carlos -- I'm not a wannabe. I am a person of authority. Depending on what I was protecting, I'd pursue you if needs be -- protecting a person from attack, a business from a hostile employee who threatened an attack, etc. If low level concern, shoplifting etc. I won't bother. I'm a little concerned though that you have such a disregard for what I'd do that you'd give run especially if you've done nothing wrong. As a guard if someone detained me -- on or off the job, I'd show them the respect of allowing them to search me. After all, I've done nothing wrong so what would I care? They have a job -- it's not personal, just policy.
I can verbally detain you and block the exit. If you touch me, I touch you back. I can't put my hands on your first. Correct. Strange, I was always taught to respect people of authority. I didn't know so many people got technical about it and had all these loopholes.
I can verbally detain you and block the exit. If you touch me, I touch you back. I can't put my hands on your first. Correct. Strange, I was always taught to respect people of authority. I didn't know so many people got technical about it and had all these loopholes.
No one would be forcing me to do a single thing. Your suspiscions are worthless to me, and there would be a lot bigger problems than trying to get to a phone to call the police if they were attempted to be enforced.
You about what, six five, 350? I'd love to see you try to take down some of the people I've dealt with, yelling at them isn't going to work.
It IS personal when you've accused me of wrongdoing. The company can't accuse someone, you can.
That's called illegal detainment, try again. If you tried illegally detaining me, you wouldn't have the opportunity to touch me back. And you not a person of authority, you're a freaking mall ninja. Get real.
That's rough in Alabama
Illinois and Wisconsin--Off duty Security doesn't preclude your authority --
Assuming you are within your jurisdiction--
You don't "lose" your authority due to supplemental employment--
A "PEACE OFFICER" is a peace officer 24 hours a day--
Illinois and Wisconsin--Off duty Security doesn't preclude your authority --
Assuming you are within your jurisdiction--
You don't "lose" your authority due to supplemental employment--
A "PEACE OFFICER" is a peace officer 24 hours a day--
EJ - you're right, I'm sorry. As I said in my earlier post - read your laws carefully before assuming that certain people don't have certain rights. There was a lawsuit here in Ark. fairly recently where a woman tried the old "I'm not gonna cooperate and you can't make me" trick... sued the store for false imprisonment - and lost. It IS different in every state, but I think a lot of people tend to believe that only police officers have a right to detain/arrest people - most places there are exceptions to that!
Mastrogiacomo
Member
Why yell? I'm not getting that much money to care. But you touch me physically and yes, I'll hurt you before you hurt me. I may not be imposing but none of the best Wing Chun practictioners were either so I'm in good company.
griz
Member
For clarification, If you asked them to look in the bag, and they politely said no, would ask them to leave first, or just call for backup?
DMK
Member
Ah, that's where we (U.S. Citizens) get in trouble. "I'm not doing anything wrong, I have nothing to hide, why should I care if I'm detained and searched evertime I enter this building, get on this airplane, or hey how about just anytime somebody in authority feels like it.
Just were do we draw the line between freedom and safety?
It's a funny thing about this country. We the people tend to like running the place. Sometimes we have to be a little ascertive to keep it that way. Please take no offence, it's not personal.
I can't speak for others, but I was also raised to show respect for people in authority (actually I was raised to show respect to anybody that deserves it). However, I also demand respect for my rights as a citizen.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
Depends on the situation -- let me see your bags in an apartment -- no -- I'd just ask them to leave the building. Call back up if they say no. Prevent them from entering the building where the residents are if needs be.
Entering a store? I wouldn't ask. If checking the bags before leaving was policy and they wouldn't comply -- call back up.
Sentry -- you sound like you have a real problem with authority. You assume I have fewer rights than I do. True I can't enforce the laws but I can get my back up to so. As cops, they have no limits.
Entering a store? I wouldn't ask. If checking the bags before leaving was policy and they wouldn't comply -- call back up.
Sentry -- you sound like you have a real problem with authority. You assume I have fewer rights than I do. True I can't enforce the laws but I can get my back up to so. As cops, they have no limits.
Carlos
Member
Mastrogiacomo. Read my first sentence. Don't assume that I'd run. I would ask you politely to get out of my way.
However, this is all meaningless, as I don't typically attract the cops or security.
So, no offense. Maybe I've seen too many of these security clowns in action. One instance, while working in an office building attached to a large mall, my van was stolen. I'm standing in the empty parking and security comes by in a car. I tell them my car was stolen and to please call the cops. They told me they "don't do that." I was pissed and stormed back to the office building. The main security desk said "What's wrong." I told them. They informed me that they were in charge of security for the mall, apologized and handed that security person their A$$. Security and I had a very good relationship after that.
I had somebody at a grocery store once years ago point me out as somebody who stole something at the meat department. Security follows me out and a block later, asks to see inside the store bag. I complied. I then demanded that he point out the person to me who falsely accused me of theft. I told that clown to make damned sure they were right before ever pointing a finger at me again. That clown was sure embarrassed.
I worked for Boeing Aircraft Company. Going in and out, it was the rule that the guard could check your bags. No problem. It was company policy.
I typically go to the United States Courthouse and local county courthouses. Armed security at US Courthouse has right to scan me and anything brought in. No problem. Same for the real deputies at the country courthouse.
I guess my big problem is with Mall Ninja types. So, again, no offense, but don't get in MY way. It won't be pleasant for anyone. Simple.
However, this is all meaningless, as I don't typically attract the cops or security.
So, no offense. Maybe I've seen too many of these security clowns in action. One instance, while working in an office building attached to a large mall, my van was stolen. I'm standing in the empty parking and security comes by in a car. I tell them my car was stolen and to please call the cops. They told me they "don't do that." I was pissed and stormed back to the office building. The main security desk said "What's wrong." I told them. They informed me that they were in charge of security for the mall, apologized and handed that security person their A$$. Security and I had a very good relationship after that.
I had somebody at a grocery store once years ago point me out as somebody who stole something at the meat department. Security follows me out and a block later, asks to see inside the store bag. I complied. I then demanded that he point out the person to me who falsely accused me of theft. I told that clown to make damned sure they were right before ever pointing a finger at me again. That clown was sure embarrassed.
I worked for Boeing Aircraft Company. Going in and out, it was the rule that the guard could check your bags. No problem. It was company policy.
I typically go to the United States Courthouse and local county courthouses. Armed security at US Courthouse has right to scan me and anything brought in. No problem. Same for the real deputies at the country courthouse.
I guess my big problem is with Mall Ninja types. So, again, no offense, but don't get in MY way. It won't be pleasant for anyone. Simple.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
So I'm not real enough to warrent even fake respect for following orders? Thirty six as of Monday by the way...
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