If a Security Guard ask.
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Mastrogiacomo
Member
So....a threat against a building by a hostile employee. I ask everyone to check their bags before entering a building -- as was done to me as a Federal employee during the Gulf War -- I'm out of line?
Moparmike
Member
As an AR resident, I dont care if they can search me and my bag. If they are polite, they might get cooperation. If they come up to me like some mall ninja and want to harass me, they can bring in someone with authority, tact, training, and most importantly, a BADGE. A LEO I will cooperate with because he has the authority. Some oppressive mall ninja is going to be reciving all the crap he/she throws at me right back at them.
Having a right to question me does not add up to unlawful detainment. If they want to say that someone fitting my description ran off with a Dillard's bag when I am in possession of one and be polite about it, its kosher with me.
If some security guard walks up to me when I am entering the building and asks to search it, I will say no and leave. If they want to press the issue, they can call the cops and they will find out that I simply didnt want to be searched and peacefully left the building/premises. The security guard wants to get physical, they can have their desire fulfilled because they have the same right to touch me when I am being peaceful as any other Joe Blow in the mall. They wont like it either.
I am not for disrespecting authority figures. SO's have a certain amount of authority, which I respect as long as they respect my rights. Its within their perogative to ask me to leave when I dont submit to their search. Its within my rights to give the mall $0 and a hastily written letter dispising their business practices as well.
Having a right to question me does not add up to unlawful detainment. If they want to say that someone fitting my description ran off with a Dillard's bag when I am in possession of one and be polite about it, its kosher with me.
If some security guard walks up to me when I am entering the building and asks to search it, I will say no and leave. If they want to press the issue, they can call the cops and they will find out that I simply didnt want to be searched and peacefully left the building/premises. The security guard wants to get physical, they can have their desire fulfilled because they have the same right to touch me when I am being peaceful as any other Joe Blow in the mall. They wont like it either.
I am not for disrespecting authority figures. SO's have a certain amount of authority, which I respect as long as they respect my rights. Its within their perogative to ask me to leave when I dont submit to their search. Its within my rights to give the mall $0 and a hastily written letter dispising their business practices as well.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
So as a Federal employee with a badge, I'm walking into a Federal building, the security requests to see my ID, I can flip him the bird and keep going. Call a real cop if I did something wrong? It's a violation of my rights to see my badge and check my bag? Wow....
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
isnt a matter or right/wrong to us. its a matter of personal liberty.
this neednt be a huge deal. there are simply many here that have beliefs and opinions regarding what is unlawful behavior, and granted, that varies from state to state.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
Obviously the right to detain regarding us lowly security guards differs from state to state -- just as gun laws and depends on the situation. A security guard in a Federal building gets more respect than I would because I only oversee the safety of residents in an apartment. Unusal but confusing but I'm doing the same job, but different setting. Appartently, the setting makes all the difference. Move from the apartment to a Federal building where I used to work -- now I have respect and compliance. Odd. I've never considered it such a violation of my freedom to comply with the policy of a store. But that's just me. I wouldn't hesistate to comply with a cop or a guard, especially since they're just doing their job -- like I try to every day respectfully, I might add...
Moparmike
Member
Yep, and they can kiss my butt too. Unless these property owners can prove these allegations when they are being billegerant, they can call the local LEO's and let them sort it out. Otherwise, those wannabe tyrants can help themselves to my dust as I walk out and never step foot there again.
Look for this thread to be shut down soon. Its getting heated.
Okay, I'm bored with this thread and I'm repeating myself. Let me just say for the record -- I totally support people's vigilance when it comes to protecting their rights. There is no need to submit to something if you truely think you are being harassed and there is no just cause. BUT I also think it's childish to be a pain in the rear JUST BECAUSE you want to teach those "mall ninjas" a lesson. And finally, don't assume that a store employee, an ordinary citizen, or a security guard has no right to detain you. It IS different in every state, so I would just recommend that before you decide to "show them" you know exactly what your rights are and are not. Out.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
correct me if i am wrong mastrogiacomo, but you are charged with enforcing POLICIES, correct? huge difference between enforcing policies and enforcing laws.
and i would question any law enforcement officers insistance that i comply with a private parties policies.
is it breaking a law to refuse to allow a security guard to perform a search? can i be arrested for telling someone 'no you may not look in my personal belongings'? will i be charged with a crime for not waiting around while you call backup?
educate us mastrogiacomo. some here have hostile attitudes. others of us do want to learn.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
I think a lot of folks here would love Boston. We have so much respect for individual rights, we practically gave the terrorists the keys to the city. Gee, if only someone detained them....they wouldn't have gotten by me. All I can I say on the subject, no matter what they thought of my position.
Tamara
Senior Member
Two key words there: "Federal" and "Employee" add many layers of ramifications.
You, as an employee MallCo Security, handling the anti-shoplifting chores of Kut-Pryce Discount Emporium can ask to see my bag as I walk in or out. Since you are a representative of the people who operate the establishment, I have a choice of either complying, or leaving. You, however, do not have the choice of physically restraining or ejecting me unless you actually saw a crime take place, and then you'd better be darn sure of it, because a security company will drop an hourly employee in a New York minute if they think it'll help 'em avoid even the tiniest out-of-court settlement.
Now, if you are authorized to check bags as folks come in, and someone blows past you, then they are trespassing. OTOH, if they are on the way out, it would be best to let them keep strolling.
jrhead75
Member
It ain't rocket science...malls, apartment complexes, my house...are all private property and can take what security measures they deem fit. Granted, if your private property is a retail facility, it's probably not a good idea to get silly about it, profitswise.
I go armed...period. But if a piece of private property says "no guns" then it's my choice, don't carry there...or don't go there.
Now "no carry" rules in gummint (of the people, by the people) buildings is a whole different matter...
I go armed...period. But if a piece of private property says "no guns" then it's my choice, don't carry there...or don't go there.
Now "no carry" rules in gummint (of the people, by the people) buildings is a whole different matter...
Double Maduro
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Ladybug,
I think if it was tested the Arkansas law would be found unconstitutional. It is too ambigous, what is a reasonable amount of time?
The security guard has the same rights and privileges as any citizen, among them the right of "citizens arrest".
If the owner of a property said I had to open my bags to enter I would open them or leave. No fuss no muss.
Any and every body has the right to ask me a question, I have the right to refuse to answer. Even if a police officer asks if he can search your person, car, house, etc. you have the right to say no. If the officer has reason enough to arrest you they will and then they can proceed as necessary.
I served 30 days on the grand jury of Multnomah County, Oregon and the biggest lesson we learned is "JUST SAY NO". Unless you are under arrest or there is a search warrant they can't search without your permission.
This is for the state and county listed above, ymmv.
Back to the original question.
If a security guard or anyone, LEO or not came up to me in the mall and asked what I had in my bag, I would tell them as politely as possible that it was none of there business. If they persisted, I would call for the Police and file a complaint.
DM
I think if it was tested the Arkansas law would be found unconstitutional. It is too ambigous, what is a reasonable amount of time?
The security guard has the same rights and privileges as any citizen, among them the right of "citizens arrest".
If the owner of a property said I had to open my bags to enter I would open them or leave. No fuss no muss.
Any and every body has the right to ask me a question, I have the right to refuse to answer. Even if a police officer asks if he can search your person, car, house, etc. you have the right to say no. If the officer has reason enough to arrest you they will and then they can proceed as necessary.
I served 30 days on the grand jury of Multnomah County, Oregon and the biggest lesson we learned is "JUST SAY NO". Unless you are under arrest or there is a search warrant they can't search without your permission.
This is for the state and county listed above, ymmv.
Back to the original question.
If a security guard or anyone, LEO or not came up to me in the mall and asked what I had in my bag, I would tell them as politely as possible that it was none of there business. If they persisted, I would call for the Police and file a complaint.
DM
griz
Member
Thanks for the answer Mastrogiacomo. As Spaceman pointed out, I was trying to understand if your intention was to get the LEO to enforce policy instead of law.
FWIW, I, like most people, don't have a problem complying with polite and reasonable request. It did grate on my nerves having to leave my pocket knife at home and take my shoes off at the airport last weekend, not because of rudeness but because I think it is a futile charade. Of course nobody forced me to fly.
FWIW, I, like most people, don't have a problem complying with polite and reasonable request. It did grate on my nerves having to leave my pocket knife at home and take my shoes off at the airport last weekend, not because of rudeness but because I think it is a futile charade. Of course nobody forced me to fly.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
No...but I wouldn't have been stupid enough to say OK guys, I'm just a paid fixture here! Go right in, don't worry about ID and hey, welcome to Boston!
Pilgrim
Member
California Penal Code Section 490.5.
(f) (1) A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for
the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner
whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be
detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken
merchandise from the merchant's premises.
(2) In making the detention a merchant may use a reasonable amount of
nondeadly force necessary to protect himself or herself and to
prevent escape of the person detained or the loss of tangible or
intangible property.
Pilgrim
(f) (1) A merchant may detain a person for a reasonable time for
the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner
whenever the merchant has probable cause to believe the person to be
detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken
merchandise from the merchant's premises.
(2) In making the detention a merchant may use a reasonable amount of
nondeadly force necessary to protect himself or herself and to
prevent escape of the person detained or the loss of tangible or
intangible property.
Pilgrim
Mastrogiacomo
Member
There's no hearing impaired workers in the FBI -- I couldn't lie my way into the Marines, or become a cop or get into the FBI. You can lose your hearing after you get in but not before. I was born this way. So I'll have to be content to do the jobs I have now well whether that pisses most freedom loving Americans off or earns their respect.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
sorry this thread turned so nasty mastrogiacomo....
"probable cause to believe the person to be
detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken
merchandise from the merchant's premises"
In other words they see it, or an item suddenly disappears after someone goes into a dark corner. I dress in dark, large clothes and walk quickly, am I automatically a suspect of shoplifting? Of course not. There have to be mitigating factors to determinate a detainment, and a simple suspiscion isn't one of them.
detained is attempting to unlawfully take or has unlawfully taken
merchandise from the merchant's premises"
In other words they see it, or an item suddenly disappears after someone goes into a dark corner. I dress in dark, large clothes and walk quickly, am I automatically a suspect of shoplifting? Of course not. There have to be mitigating factors to determinate a detainment, and a simple suspiscion isn't one of them.
Mastrogiacomo
Member
At the post I have, I've detained no one unless I clearly see they've taken something and can point to where they have it. I do my job to the extent that I'm allowed and don't assume guilt until the person (or kid more often than not) is proven innocent. It's just a security job -- I don't make more of it than it is....
No offense Spaceman -- some people just can't stand security guards. I can't stand the pay myself and lack of respect, which is why I'm looking for clerical work now even with carpal tunnel in both hands...desperate times...
No offense Spaceman -- some people just can't stand security guards. I can't stand the pay myself and lack of respect, which is why I'm looking for clerical work now even with carpal tunnel in both hands...desperate times...
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