Do you Carry chambered?

Evela said:

I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step. The gun must follow the same path from holster to presentation whether it is racked or not. It is simply racked on the way. I can tell you it doesn't take much practice for your draw and rack becomes just one smooth movement to presentation.

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Respectfully, you didn't make it clear because it simply doesn't make sense. It does in-fact take longer to accomplish what you recommend, and such a movement can be next to impossible to perform in a close combat situation. Believe it or not Evela, a significant number of gun fights have taken place at a 0-3 yard distance. Sometimes your assailant is physically fighting with you when you draw your weapon, and that isn't a good time to be fiddling around with a ridiculously outdated method of drawing a weapon (one which only really existed for the sake of lawyers).

Evela said:

Fact is, it is actually pretty common to learn to rack with one hand, a skill that is often taught in real training. Second, if you have less than say 0.2 or 0.3 seconds (you really do need to actually read my posts), you're probably either in, or about to be in hand-to-hand confrontation. A situation in which your primary goal is to escape, so that you CAN draw. Got that?

Click to expand...

I think it is time for you to provide some references here Evela. I've had the real training you speak of, and I'm a career police officer for a major police department. Beyond that, I have experience in various forms of competitive shooting, and have taken a number of advanced courses that have been offered to me in the course of my career. Additionally, I've spent enough time operating in a real-world environment with a gun to know that your argument is illogical at best.

Have you ever tried a one-handed slide rack? Seriously, this is not the quickest manuever to perform for anyone, and is often difficult to perform depending on the equipment that you are wearing (belt, holster, etc), and the style of your gun (ramped sights, etc). The one-handed slide rack was developed as a last-ditch effort, primarily for the person who has a gun that needs reloaded during a firefight in which they've lost the use of one hand/arm. It is absolutely NOT a technique that should be used as an everyday way to perform a one-handed draw when preparing your weapon for imminent battle! Clearly a one-handed draw is sometimes used in a firefight, but these situations occur with a loaded/chambered weapon (excluding the type of exceptions I outlined above).

You also mention the possibility of hand-to-hand fighting ensuing before you could draw, and how that doesn't negate your argument for a slower engagement method which requires the use of two hands. Sadly, you couldn't be more wrong in this case, and I truly hope that someone doesn't get themselves killed by using your advice! As I said once already, many modern documented gun fights have happened while the subjects were in contact with each other. I even have personal knowledge of a handful of these incidents that have involved friends of mine who were fighting on the ground with a bad guy when they deployed their weapons!

Just because you are in a hand-to-hand fight does not mean that you can't deploy your firearm. But, if you are in a hand-to-hand fight and have a firearm without a round in the chamber, I hope that you only ever intended to use that firearm as an impact weapon, because you probably won't be able to free both hands to operate the slide of the weapon!

Evela said:

Please don't tell me you're making an argument to carry "cocked but NOT locked"! Until or unless you install a custom manual safety on your Glock, it's in Condition Zero - a state that one should avoid until your gun is presented, pointed and ready to fire. Let's stick to the facts.

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Yes, that is exactly how you carry a Glock. You can try to argue against such a practice, but it is the same way that these firearms are carried by every police department that fields a Glock (I would estimate that this equates to a few hundred thousand firearms in current service with real police officers, who often carry the weapons every day of their lives). Glocks have safeties that are internal to the weapon. The gun will not fire without the trigger being moved from a forward to rearward position. The lack of an external safety has no bearing on whether or not these firearms can be safely carried for duty/CCW use with a round in the chamber.

(BTW, I've carried a Glock for my entire career, and have owned three different Glocks. I've had my current Glock for about 5 years now, and have put around 10,000 rounds through it so far, and carried it every day in those five years).

Evela said:

In a pants peeing situation, they might not even be able to find their holster, much less draw it, much less fumble around trying to find and activate, er deactivate the safety - sadly, a fine motor skill they're missing.

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This is spoken like someone who has never actually seen armed combat firsthand. Believe me, I don't think you'll have any more luck with a slide-racking motion than someone who has trained with a 1911 would have with a safety sweep. I currently carry a Glock, as I mentioned previously, so I could almost guarantee that I'd forget to sweep a safety during a draw (unless I began training with that weapon system). However, sweeping a safety is still going to be a faster and more natural motion than bringing a second hand into the draw in an attempt to rack the slide on the weapon. This will be even more true if you are facing a charging opponent at the time of the draw, as your natural inclination will be to protect yourself with the free hand (which, ironically enough, may naturally come up to the area where your free hand will meet your other hand -- which contains a gun that is hopefully already chambered and ready for the fight).

You are not wrong in saying that the fear of a life-and-death encounter can cause people to lose control of their muscles/bladders/bowels, but I do believe that you are very wrong in assuming that adding a slide-racking motion to the draw will be a beneficial way to counter this problem!

Evela said:

One study - with a decent shooter who was trying the Israeli draw for the first time, and with just a little practice - found it took him around 0.2 to 0.3 seconds more with about the same accuracy.

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Yet, that is demonstrated in a controlled range environment, rather than a combat situation (where you may be off-balance, in a fight, or unable to utilize one of your hands, all while you feel your adrenaline run up to the redline)! You are advocating a dangerous technique that has been abandoned by every agency/organization that I'm personally aware of.

Evela said:

It's one of the reasons he recommends the NY#1.

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The NY trigger was developed to address problems in training, not problems with guns. Sadly, we now have the NY trigger here in our department, as the administration's answer to an officer who gave herself a 'racing stripe' when she holstered her loaded weapon (following a course of fire) and failed to remove her finger from the trigger guard. Her idiotic accident led to a political decision that impacted the rest of my department, when it really should have only resulted in nothing more than some serious remedial training for the involved officer. Such is the way things often work. Politics runs the show, and in the past has also created things such as the so-called "Israeli Draw".

Boba Fett said:

Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja.
Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies.
Evela presents opinion as fact while contradicting himself endlessly.
Evela likes to cut up other people's quotes from various threads without even linking to those threads in a crazy attempt to prove his points.

Click to expand...

^^ Something to think about!

I don't usually jump too quickly to calling someone a troll, but with a post count of only 5, and a very strongly worded opinion that goes against the grain of everything that is currently taught by the vast majority of the world, it kind of gets you wondering.

I wouldn't even waste my time replying to such comments, except that I'd hate to see some new shooter become convinced that they should never carry their weapon chambered, and then ultimately see that person get hurt as a result of that decision!

HK USP Compact 9mm cocked & locked.

Click, bang.

Just like a 1911...

You would have to be an idiot to agree with Evela. I carry my glock with one chambered and I also carry a revolver from time to time with all chambers loaded.

Point and pull trigger, that doesn't require any fine motor skill.

I would also like to point out to Evela that just because someone is wearing a badge does not mean that they have gone through anymore training or practice than an average CHL holder. I have known many LEOs that the gun they carried on their hip was simply a tool and they didn't go the extra step to make sure they were even proficient in it's use even in a calm situation.

You wanna see proof of that, look up shots fired -vs- actual hits in alot of LEO shootings. Then compare them to the same statistics you can find for CHL Holders.

Just so everyone knows, I am not bashing cops, many people don't take every aspect or tool associated with their line of work with the utmost seriousness.

I thank my new friends for their kind and cogent replies. I'll try once more, just for the Gipper. Not to mention its just way too much fun...

"Evala, I thought you were going to say your piece and let us decide. You wrote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evala in post 167
...it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide...

Of course, most of your "facts" were not facts at all, but rather unsubstantiated opinions."

You can't read. You've already decided, but you can't resist reading your own writing. Of course, the fact that you think what I state are not facts, is, in fact, not factual. Why? Because I say so (your reason, lol...). Heaven forbid that I disagree. You said your piece, I've given an alternative viewpoint, that should be about it.

"Prove it. Supply evidence."

I did. You don't read. And if you think I'm gonna repeat myself, you're sadly mistaken.

"Yes, it's quite obvious that you have no real training."

See above. I stated my training, andalso took great pains to cite Ayoob, your hero (and mine). I know exactly what fine and gross motors skills are and it cost me over $100,000 in training to find out. Get real.

"First, don't presume to condescend to me. It's apparent that I have more training and shooting experience than you (and am also well educated, having spent over 30 years practicing law), so I don't think you have anything to teach me in this field"

I don't presume. It is you who presume to know it all and condescend based on your years of doing it your way - your comment up is nothing if not condescending. Hate to tell you this but the Israeli draw is a reliable and respected alternative, used for decades. And your superior, Mr. Ayoob will be the first to tell you that you'd better consider stress - and loss of fine motor skills - as primary in your preparation for real life.

We disagree, and I have no need to convince you otherwise, after all you have all that experience, blah, blah, blah.

Next....

" Originally Posted by Evela
I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step. The gun must follow the same path from holster to presentation whether it is racked or not. It is simply racked on the way. I can tell you it doesn't take much practice for your draw and rack becomes just one smooth movement to presentation.

Respectfully, you didn't make it clear because it simply doesn't make sense. It does in-fact take longer to accomplish what you recommend, and such a movement can be next to impossible to perform in a close combat situation."

Oh my. And now we're allegedly talking to a real pro, good grief. Look, either you have poor powers of visualization or you really know NOTHING about the Israeli draw. Out of common courtesy I'll take a little time to repeat myself (but don't ask again). Close combat has been discussed. As for the time needed, a person experienced in the Israeli draw ought to be even a tad faster. How can that be?

Follow me, Tonto...

Visualize the path a gun might take from holster to presentation. Up out of the holster, pivot, then roughly forward to the centerline to presentation. The weak hand joins later in that process. A typical draw. Whether you rack or not, the gun follows about the same path. All that happens is that the left hand is brought to the gun a bit sooner (before the forward movement), takes a slingshot (or for some, saddle) grip - as the gun continues to move.

At this point the left hand holds position while the right (gun) hand continues to move forward. In fact, the gun hand almost punches forward. Due to the roughly stationary left hand, the slide is held back and automatically racks as the gun hand continues to move forward.

At no time does the gun hand hesitate or stop its normal draw movement. In fact, if anything the gun hand accelerates forward, FASTER than a typical draw. At a point the slide racks and is virtually pulled from the left hand - the left hand is then free to accelerate and join the right hand for a typical two hand grip.

Ayoob himself respects the method and has noted that the Israeli draw(using a slingshot grip) is faster, more powerful and keeps the muzzle on line. The slingshot grip requires less strength and accordingly benefits all shooters, young, old, female, weak and strong.

In practice it is amazing to see and is one smooth, continuous and rapid movement directly to centerline and a nice flash sight presentation. You can barely even notice that it happened to be racked in the process. The racking happens during the stroke and does not interrupt it in any way. It is certainly not a separate step.

I'll say it again for the backyard commando's - the gun follow about the same path (except faster) as a typical draw, from holster to presentation, without interruption, without pause, with no additional step. If anything the Israeli draw is faster, and more powerful due to the agressive push toward presentation.

Experienced practitioners can expect to draw and fire 3 shots in roughly a second or a tad more. This compares very favorably. Now. This is the last time I'm gonna hold your hand on this one. Anyone who really knew the draw wouldn't ask such ignorant questions.

Don't ask me again.

"Yes, that is exactly how you carry a Glock (condition zero). You can try to argue against such a practice, but it is the same way that these firearms are carried by every police department that fields a Glock".

Not true, let's leave it at most, not "every" police department. And you too need to read better. I practically fell over myself trying to differentiate the many relatively untrained, inexperienced and minimally competent CCW carriers - who should consider condition three - with the real pro's like you who ARE trained, practice regularly and who are paid to take the greatly increased risks of both condition one and having to face BG's on a daily basis. True professionals face much higher risks and accordingly have to take more.

Thanks for making my point. And as far as hand-to-hand "combat", why don't you just face up to the fact no ordinary citizen - a housewife, grandpa, or Walmart greeter - will ever really be adequately trained or prepared for real combat. They are better off running than accosting. You are speaking to professionals about professionals.

I'm not. And it the ordinary user who will go blank or panic, and fumble with the fine motor skill safety at the moment of truth. And to make it worse, what if the safety is already off? Will he/she then make it on safe? What if he/she is carrying a semi with a safety that is deactivated in the opposite direction of his/her primary carry? What if, heaven forbid, he/she was distracted that morning and there ISN'T "one in the tube"? Click. Click!?

All of these can happen.

The beauty of the Israeli draw is that it's a gross skill, that (with practice) can be performed just as fast, if not faster than a typical draw. It becomes a safe, reliable and effective habit. As a result the Israeli draw makes FTE, FTF clearing easy.

One last note: as far as hand-to-hand goes I've got a dandy S&W SWAT knife that can shred a heart faster, more accurately and more effectively than any puny handgun round. I would consider it ridiculous to depend on any one technique or weapon. But again - probably not something I'd recommend to Grandpa.

We're talkin bout real people, real life. You want combat - join the USMC...

"Yes, that is exactly how you carry a Glock. You can try to argue against such a practice, but it is the same way that these firearms are carried by every police department that fields a Glock (I would estimate that this equates to a few hundred thousand firearms in current service with real police officers, who often carry the weapons every day of their lives). Glocks have safeties that are internal to the weapon."

Now who is condescending? I own two Glocks (34/26) and can detail strip them in my sleep. I know all about the "internal" safeties, and please don't bore me with "it's your finger that's the ultimate safety". Spare me. I won't even begin to cite the AD's and ND's experienced by police, but this is common knowledge.

And these are professionals "who carry the weapons every day of their lives". What does this say about the common CCW carrier who is minimally ready, practiced or prepared? You know the answer, no doubt you've visited a few homes where Daddy accidently shot the dog, or worse Mommy. You are speaking to professionals - I am speaking to the rest.

"This is spoken like someone who has never actually seen armed combat firsthand. Believe me, I don't think you'll have any more luck with a slide-racking motion than someone who has trained with a 1911 would have with a safety sweep."

Again, thanks for making my point. Almost all of us have NOT seen armed combat (although this thread is beginning to feel like it, lol), which is exactly what I was getting at. The use of this draw in Israel for decades, and many years to by the USMC and Army (1911 days) proves otherwise. It worked then and it still works. I hate to keep making the point you keep running away from, but it's a well practiced gross motor skill that is retained during stress.

In Israel, just for one example, the concept was to arm ordinary citizens, to carry concealed, to be in and protect schools and other such places from armed terrorist attack - using the Israeli method. It was wildly successful, so much so that this idea was seriously discussed by police organizations (including Ayoob) for possible use here. Guess you missed that meeting.

" Originally Posted by Evela
It's one of the reasons he recommends the NY#1.

The NY trigger was developed to address problems in training, not problems with guns. Sadly, we now have the NY trigger here in our department, as the administration's answer to an officer who gave herself a 'racing stripe' when she holstered her loaded weapon (following a course of fire) and failed to remove her finger from the trigger guard."

You make this too easy. Couple paragraphs ago you were bragging about the 10,000 rounds you've fired (is that all?), and how safe the Glock's triple safety was for daily duty carry. Oh well, hope she recovered OK. Again, thank for making my point. BTW, my statement had nothing to do with why the NY#1 (and #2) were developed. What I did say was that our hero Mas Ayoob recommends the NY#1 because of the debilitating effects of stress and to avoid AD's and ND's.

I'll defer to Ayoob anytime and so should you.

"Yet, that (fast speed) is demonstrated in a controlled range environment, rather than a combat situation (where you may be off-balance, in a fight, or unable to utilize one of your hands, all while you feel your adrenaline run up to the redline)!"

I wish you could have it both ways. You want me to believe the exact opposite of the facts established both by Ayoob and others, and in my post. Specifically you want us to believe that under great stress, a user won't be able to do a gross skill, but WILL be able to perfrom a fine motor skill.

That, sir, is exactly backwards. Believe me, if an average carrier can't perform gross skills, they won't be threading any needles either - or properly manipulating fine skill safeties. If you don't see that, you don't see anything.

In sum, you need to stuff your ego for half a minute, and honestly and openly consider that a condition three carry - used by our own military, some police departments and other professionals and Israel - might just be a safer and more reliable proposition for the family.

What these - ordinary people - are seeking is "pretty good protection". They are not professionals, are unlikely to prevail in hand-to-hand, and don't seek perfection. Simply, they like having a gun that has an empty chamber, but that can be brought to bear - under stress - quickly and reliably. Theynow understand that real combat may destroy their fine motor skills, and want a method that still works. And a Glock - with its internal safeties only, and in condition three - might just be the perfect choice.

I think that most of these average users may be relieved to find that the Israeli draw provides the "pretty good protection" they seek.

Remember,

Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja.
Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies.
Evela presents opinion as fact while contradicting himself endlessly.
Evela likes to cut up other people's quotes from various threads without even linking to those threads in a crazy attempt to prove his points.

$100,000 in training

Click to expand...

...and you still haven't found a weapon that you can carry reliably with a round chambered?
This is really a dumb argument. Israeli's *carried* that way because in 1948 when the country was established they had a hodgepodge of different weapons with different manuals of arms. The simplest thig was to carry with all safeties off and to chamber a round when ready to fire.
If you want to carry without a round chambered then do so, but don't assume that its better or safer.
I'm curious to know, that is if you don't mind sharing with us, who it is that was worth paying $100,000 to train you to carry and draw Israeli style.
You're correct in that the proper way to execute an Israeli draw is in a fluid motion. However, doing two things at the same time does not equal one motion.
However it is that you choose to carry, practice and be safe.
All the best.

Yeah, bottom line, one-handed cocking is an emergency measure, not one you should depend on if you don't have to. Ayoob DOES NOT advocate carrying with an empty chamber. Nor does he assume that police have better or more training than armed civilians. I have shown more then one cop how to rack the slide with one hand.

In agreeing with bobafett, Evela is a guy who trained under one school of thought and opinion and won't believe that anything else could be correct. If you are using a handgun to save your life, it means everything else has already gone to hell. You cannot assume that you will be able to rack the slide, anymore than you can assume you will be able to load the gun completely.

You need to spend less time in books and more time on the range. Ideas change a LOT when people are shooting back at you.

Evela, you really need to take a step back and look at how you are acting. There are many of us on here who argue about various points with firearms. We are all much more respectful to each other than you are being to well established and respected members.

Some of us who have been here a while and will rib each other or be a smartass when we are disagreeing, but you are being condescending and it isn't going to endear you to anyone here. People with actual experience have told you why you are wrong. Learn from them, and be glad that this forum is more understanding than others.

Arguing about this is pointless....

I would never ***tell*** anyone else how to carry, nor would I tell them what to carry.

This thread is pretty much useless, unless you're looking for some statistics on how one person chooses to carry vs another.

* I don't believe this thread is "high road" at all, from what I've read.

* One could argue that anyone who carries a handgun with a traditional safety - for self defense - is adding an extra (unnecessary) step. Increasing the time required to draw and fire the handgun if needed.

* One could also argue that one hand should be on your handgun at all times - thus decreasing the time required to draw and fire your weapon - should you need to.

* It's way more important to be able shoot accurately (under pressure) than have a round chamber or not chambered while carrying.

IMO, this thread is as useless as those threads where people try to say a .45 is a better caliber than a .40 S&W for self-defense, etc. No point in arguing it.....

Better to let people carry in the way they know they will be most safe, efficient, and effective FOR THEM - rather than trying to say that one way is better than another.

Having said that, I carry differently, depending on the situation and the handgun I happen to be carrying.

Interesting argument, to which I choose to apply Ockham's Razor :Of several acceptable explanations for a phenomenon, the explanation containing just the facts will do.

Also known as KISS, I have no doubt of the safeties in my XD, If I carry it, locked and cocked. The same with my other pistols. However if I ever choose to carry my tokarev, then I will learn the Israeli drill, as that would be the most prudent way of carrying it.

In all my training, both armchair and otherwise the focus has been on parsing unnecessary movements out of the draw to get your weapon on target as quickly as possible.

So until I carry a weapon like the tokarev where the safety is known to be of dubious quality, I have no reason to make an Israeli draw my standard.

That being said, there are many wiser heads here than I, and trying to knock them all in the same thread is not something I endeavor to do.

I don't have my CHP yet, but will most likely soon.

I'll be carrying my Glock 17.

Massad Ayoob wrote:

Since the 1911 is best carried fully loaded with a round in the chamber and “cocked and locked”—the hammer cocked on the live round, and the thumb safety “on safe”—you want to learn to wipe that safety lever into the “fire” position as you bring the gun up on target.

With a pre-cocked, single action trigger pull, the 1911 now puts only a short, easy trigger press between you and the necessary hit. Repeat as necessary: the same easy pull will follow for each subsequent shot.

One big advantage of cocked and locked carry is that it mandates the gun be “on safe.” If the wrong person gets the gun away from you, he has to figure out which of those little levers “turns on the gun.” This will buy you time to either rectify the situation up close and personal or run a considerable distance, either of which beats hell out of the bad guy holding a “point gun, pull trigger” weapon on you at contact distance.

In the hands of such seasoned, well-trained lawmen as the LAPD SWAT team, the 1911 .45 pistol has historically delivered an extremely high percentage of hits for the shots fired in life-threatening close combat. The pistol is simply easy to use well when in the grip of hand-shaking, gut-clenching “fight or flight response.” Browning built it to perform exactly that way. The design succeeded.

Click to expand...

I hope John Holbrook doesn't mind my posting of his picture, but I think it says more than enough:





When I carry cocked and locked, I have SCIENCE on my side.

I know that the laws of physics aren't going to fail and allow the hammer to fall when I don't want it to.

On top of that, Chemistry is my best bro, and I know the salty crap in the primer ain't gonna go bonkers until I want it to either.


That leaves the rest of the equation up to me.

And I think survivability increases as time decreases in getting the weapon ready to do its job and save my life.

I always CARRY with a round chambered in my CARRY PISTOL. If I am going to the range with my rifle or shotgun, of COURSE they are not chambered...Any carry pistol should always always always be chambered. That extra fraction of whatever second it takes for you to draw and acquire sight picture can be GREATLY hindered by trying to rack a round into an empty pipe...That fraction of that second at that time can be the difference between sleeping okay at home that night, sleeping in a hospital bed or taking a dirt nap.

i have my PT92C chambered with the hammer down(decocker) safety off .

my .32 acp chambered hammer down safety off

when i get my Ruger SR9 this thursday i think i am gonna carry it chambered with safety off too since its a striker fired pistol.

I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step.

Click to expand...

You can make it clear as you want. It's not true.

Cocked. Locked. Ready to Rock.

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You got that right!

OK, definitely a troll.

I have seen Ayoob quoted dozens of times in this thread, making statements supporting both arguments. Every picture I see for the guy has him wearing a cocked & locked .45.

You know when the replies reduce to name calling, or avoid addressing the points made, that you've been successful. I'm pleased. Let me give you some examples, no doubt painfully posted:

"You can make it (that the racking does not require an "extra step") as clear as you want. It's not true."

This is a typical one line response that expects us to believe you - why? - well, just because you say so. Thank god you finally posted. I have seen the light. Idiocy defined.

"That fraction of that second at that time can be the difference between sleeping okay at home that night, sleeping in a hospital bed or taking a dirt nap."

A dirt nap? Mmmm, sounds comfy, though I prefer napping on the sand at the beach while catching up with my sun tan. This one is at least a little better (but not much). Another "trust me" claim without discussion. From another non-reader. The primary issue was the effects of stress insofar as fine motor skills, especially regarding the common, relatively inexperienced CCW carrier. A typical smug, simplistic and evasive post. Not real useful.

"I know that the laws of physics aren't going to fail and allow the hammer to fall when I don't want it to. I have SCIENCE on my side."

This guy at least made a reasonable attempt, posted a nice pic of the safeties on a 1911. Nicely done. I was not aware that rabid gunslingers had any respect for "SCIENCE" (shouted, lol). Hate to tell ya this Archimedes but your "SCIENCE" fails all the time with untold numbers of AD's and ND's involving both amateurs and professionals. Have you ever heard of something called "statistics", oops I mean "STATISTICS". A silly post.

"Massad Ayoob wrote: 'In the hands of such seasoned, well-trained lawmen as the LAPD SWAT team, the 1911 .45 pistol has historically delivered an extremely high percentage of hits...'.".

I like this post. Very reasonable, at least tries to present a well intended argument. Thank you. But unfortunately this post falls into the quick 'n dirty, cut 'n paste Google result. Here's how it works. You Google the result you'd like to find, then scan maybe the first page of results, grab the one that says what you think you want to say, cut and paste and voila! You look like a superstar. Simple, fast, superficially impressive, but...

Irrelevant.

Posters like this not only don't fully read or comprehend the post they are trying - very quickly - to reply to, they often don't read their own citations. Read the above again - this poster is referring to the experiences of the highly trained LAPD SWAT team. Irrelevent to the common CCW carrier who would probably sit down, cry and pray in the same circumstances.

Ayoob also pointed out the incredible and debilitating effects of stress in a gunfight - especially for the amateur. He has also shown great respect for the Israeli method (see my earlier posts). But I guess you don't read.

Guys, ya gotta read, really read, and respond. The concern is safety and reliabilty for ordinary and inexperienced CCW owners under real stress. Try to stay on point.

"I would never ***tell*** anyone else how to carry, nor would I tell them what to carry. It's way more important to be able shoot accurately (under pressure) than have a round chamber or not chambered while carrying. Better to let people carry in the way they know they will be most safe, efficient, and effective FOR THEM - rather than trying to say that one way is better than another.

This thread is pretty much useless, unless you're looking for some statistics on how one person chooses to carry vs another."

This was by far the most competent, rational and respectful posts of the bunch, and not just because Mr. Pyle largely agreed with me. He sees the issues and understands that condition 3 and the Israeli draw is a reasonable choice for the ordinary CCW user. But I would like to counter his feeling that the thread is "useless" except for statistics.

I would venture to say that newer CCW carriers are very tentative and are still forming their preferences. They don't understand what all the options are, they are not yet familiar with the history and successful useage of the condition 3 option. What they HAVE been exposed to a buncha professionals and gunstore commandos who say the ONLY way is "one in the pipe".

All delivered with dramatic and smug certainty - otherwise, you'll be takin that "dirt nap". My, my. No, the value of this thread - however unpleasant - is to educate and present all the options, with a real risk-reward analysis that allow the user to make a prejudice free decision.

Pyle is a reasoned man, one of the few here. I may live to regret saying that though, lol.

"Evela, you really need to take a step back and look at how you are acting. There are many of us on here who argue about various points with firearms. We are all much more respectful to each other than you are being to well established and respected members."

Azziza speaks well, and the debate was between the two or us, or maybe Pyle I'm sure the tone would be rather different. But - be honest - the reality includes many posts like this:

"Evela is most likely a Mall Ninja. Evela is most likely too young to own a gun and spends his time in video games and watching movies... definitely a troll... what a screed... there is no reason to pay attention to your opinions... This is really a dumb argument... there is no reason to pay attention to your opinions...". And many more.

And look at your very own post, fer gawdsake, where you say "People with actual experience...". You call that respectful!? Look in the mirror, my friend. Close but no banana, and if you consider that condescending you're pretty delicate.

See what tends to happen is that the resident "experts" have a tendency to gang up, intrude, mock and try to overpower views that differ from their Koran of approved viewpoints. An outsider - unless he/she has a VERY thick skin - comes in at a decided disadvantage.

Personally I think my posts are quite respectful under the circumstances. I can give as good as I get though, and if you treat me with disdain, my response to you might just be a little edgy. And another thing - I'm not gonna endlessly repeat my points simply because many other posters simply don't read, don't care, or continue to post the same tired one-liners.

My dog bites.

"You're correct in that the proper way to execute an Israeli draw is in a fluid motion. However, doing two things at the same time does not equal one motion."

Since this was posted with respect, I'll answer likewise, even though this was well detailed in my last post, above. Actually I didn't say that (that "doing two thing equals one motion"). Those are your words. What I have repeatedly said is that in the Israeli draw the gun follows almost the same path as a more typical draw. If I turned the sound off on the Israeli you would probably not even notice the weapon had been racked. Both draws change direction after the gun is withdrawn from the holster (from roughly vertical to forward). In both draws the gun follows a pretty similar path, at about the same speed, and with no real pauses or deviations.

Here's the difference.

In a typical draw the left hand joins a bit later in the process. In the Israeli draw it is engaged earlier - to catch and retard the slide - but read this twice: without really changing, slowing or pausing the continuing movement of the right hand in moving the gun forward to presentation. If anything, in the Israeli draw the right hand moves faster, almost punches forward, very focused and powerful.

Indeed, this is why very experienced practioners of the Israeli draw feel that it is faster to presentation. One trainer pretty much promises 3 effective shots in about one second. True? Maybe not, but close enough for government work, lol.

Let's close with this...

"In agreeing with bobafett, Evela is a guy who trained under one school of thought and opinion and won't believe that anything else could be correct."

Just the opposite. Don't put words in my mouth. If you take a hard, honest look the prevailing PC position here is that anything but carrying hot is just plain foolish. I merely suggested that for the common and inexperienced CCW carrier, and with a view toward safety and reliablity under stress, that condition 3 and the Israeli draw constituted a very good, and perhaps better option.

Still, it appears the roving gangs - with the exceptions of a couple of reasonable posters (acknowledged above) - can't leave well enough alone, can't ask honest questions, explore with openmindedness, or post with true respect.

That, sadly, is the way it is. To me the important thing was to present an alternative viewpoint with justification as a true and useful option for the common CCW carrier and reader.

That has been done. And honestly, I enjoyed it, no hard feelings. A good, rowdy interchange.

I'm always astounded by those who would carry a modern firearm for self defense and not have a round chambered.

It sounds like suicide, not self defense to me.

If you are going to carry with one in the tube, you have to be smart and vigilant. You have to be better than the guys who:

dropped their gun, grabbed for it, shot themselves, and lost their lucrative dream job as a result.

the guy who puts the gun for sale at a gun show without unloading, and some dope fires off the round

the various instructors who have shot themselves while lecturing about firearm safety

left the gun where his kid could find it and shoot somebody

I recommend carrying with one in the tube. But carrying unchambered is better than not carrying. It is a spectrum of risk. I don't know of anyone who recommends carrying chambered/safety off, or chambered/fully cocked/safety off. How are you going to flick the safety button, if the bad guy broke all 10 of your fingers before you could draw?

I think people who have lots of experience forget what it was like before they had experience, and they can't quite imagine what it would be like to be an adult starting to think about self-defense.