Shot 4 times with a 45, goes home after a visit to hospital

the above is why i laugh at XX handgun caliber arguments. NO handgun (or rifle, or shotgun) round is a sure stopper. people have widely varying tolerance to being shot, even in organs/areas that eventually killed them.

pls see FBI miami shootout...

recall something written by ayoob to prove the same point. on one hand a guy got a good portion of his skull/brain removed with a 44M, and ran off a great distance before dying. the other was an officer who was completely missed by a perp's bullet at bad breath ranges, and died anyway. presumably of fright.

the moral is shoot until the threat goes down. caliber, muzzle energy, velocity, HP or ball, NON ISSUE. none of them are for sure, well placed or poorly placed. the well placed can fail, and the poorly placed can work. see above mention of femoral artery.

and like most any hunter will tell you, just because they are down doesn't mean they are no longer a threat.

gunnie

Balrog said:

Yes, people will sometimes even survive injuries to the heart and other vital structures. But I am unsure what your point is?

You are less likely to survive an injury to the heart that an injury to the flabby tissue outside the chest cavity, but still on "the torso".

I would always prefer to hit COM between the nipples than anywhere else.

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Well my point was to respond to Maj Dad's post:

This all points back to Center Mass. Shoot to wing, and you'll wing. I defy any one to show an instance when a person was shot 4 times center mass and didn't go down (with a 38 spl on up but for sure with a 45). I'm sure there are all kinds of anecdotal tales, but it just doesn't jibe with the realities of human anatomy and gunshot wounds. I'll defer to the eye-witness events of drug-crazed zombies who soaked up 50 chest wounds with a 50 BMG...

Click to expand...

You then felt the need to nitpick my response so I provided more examples of the fact that 4 COM shots .38spl. on up can't always be counted on to bring down an attacker.



So now what was your point???

My point was that non-COM shots are less likely to put down an assailant than COM shots. That does not mean COM shots are a guarantee, just more likely. You can call that nit picking if you want, but the rest of the world calls it fact.

Full Story http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x157...t-this-morning


THE STATE JOURNAL-REGISTER
Posted Jun 04, 2010 @ 09:47 AM
Last update Jun 05, 2010 @ 07:35 AM
Police Friday morning arrested a man wanted for allegedly shooting another man four times Thursday morning.

Gregory S. McKnight, 20, was arrested about 1:45 a.m. in the 2100 block of East Capitol Avenue by members of the Springfield Police Department’s Street Crimes Unit.

McKnight was hiding in the basement of a house there, police said. A search of the basement also turned up a .45-caliber handgun, which police believe McKnight used in the shooting.

He is at the Sangamon County Jail, charged with attempted first-degree murder. Bond is set at $500,000.

The shooting happened about 12:40 a.m. Police said the 29-year-old victim and McKnight got into an argument over a $10 debt McKnight owed the victim. They argued and almost came to blows, but McKnight got into a car and drove away. The victim remained outside, but McKnight returned a few minutes later and jumped out of the car with a .45-caliber pistol. He confronted the victim and shot him four times, police said – three times in the legs and once in the arm.

Police said the victim was treated at the hospital and released.

Balrog said:

My point was that non-COM shots are less likely to put down an assailant than COM shots. That does not mean COM shots are a guarantee, just more likely. You can call that nit picking if you want, but the rest of the world calls it fact.

Click to expand...

And when did I say that non-COM shots are more likely to put an assailant down???


You said:

Torso hits on a 300 pound man is NOT the same thing as center of mass.

You have to get into center of mass, not just a bunch of flabby fat in the periphery. Center of mass is the part of your body located between your nipples.

The man in your anecdote did not recieve 4 hits with a 357 to center of mass.

Click to expand...

So now where is your proof that those shots to the torso weren't COM shots???

I then provided info that those shots were to the chest

And you replied:

No I really dont mean to be nitpicking here. I would say from an anatomical standpoint that COM is the area between the nipples, where the heart and great vessels are located. Anything outside the nipples is unlikely to be a lethal injury, assuming there is prompt medical attention. Even a lung shot is not likely to be lethal or cause immediate incapacitation as long as it is peripheral. A 300 pound man is going to have about 3 inches of fat outside his thoracic cavity, and a shot through any of that fat would still be considered a chest hit, but certainly not COM.

Click to expand...

Once again you offered no proof at all to refute my evidence or to prove that the shots were not COM.


So rather than just sitting there nitpicking why don't you step up to the plate and give us some actual evidence that those chest shots weren't COM.



Of course even if you do I still provided you with an example of someone shot 17x COM as proof that even COM shots can't guarantee an instant stop, but nowhere did I say non-COM shots would have been more effective.

So now where did you dream up this idea that I ever said non-COM shots are more likely to bring down an assailant???

Gunnie wrote: ".....an officer who was completely missed by a perp's bullet at bad breath ranges, and died anyway. presumably of fright."

STOP SHOOTING DAMMIT!! That halitosis is killing me!!

Buck Snort said:

Gunnie wrote: ".....an officer who was completely missed by a perp's bullet at bad breath ranges, and died anyway. presumably of fright."

STOP SHOOTING DAMMIT!! That halitosis is killing me!!

Click to expand...

That does bring up an interesting point.

On one of the links I provided I read this:

WWII also provides an ultimate proof of the concept of psychological stopping power. On autopsy, from one to three percent of deceased soldiers were determined not to have been wounded at all. They had apparently died just from the effects of psychological stress.


It would seem that some people die because they've been conditioned to believe they're supposed to die when they get shot or even shot at.



Mind over matter.

Weevil, just nevermind. I dont think there is any point in arguing about it. You brought those cases up and used them as examples. Maybe you have the medical reports but I don't. I don't know where on the torso the hits were sustained, but since the person involved did not die, I would assume those hits did not strike anything vital. The chances are thus lower that these hits were COM as opposed to more peripherally on the torso. As I said, COM hits don't guarantee success, but they increase the odds something vital will be hit, thus leading to incapacitation. If those hits were center of mass though, the person who was shot would have required surgery, and I can't seem to find any reference that they had surgery. So I would conclude they were not COM. That is my opinion based on facts as presented.