Shot 4 times with a 45, goes home after a visit to hospital

[Weevil]

This all points back to Center Mass. Shoot to wing, and you'll wing. I defy any one to show an instance when a person was shot 4 times center mass and didn't go down (with a 38 spl on up but for sure with a 45). I'm sure there are all kinds of anecdotal tales, but it just doesn't jibe with the realities of human anatomy and gunshot wounds. I'll defer to the eye-witness events of drug-crazed zombies who soaked up 50 chest wounds with a 50 BMG...

Not a problem.

How about four torso hits with a .357 magnum?


In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.


Coates attacker survived and went to prison for murder.

 

[Balrog]

I defy any one to show an instance when a person was shot 4 times center mass and didn't go down

Not a problem.

How about four torso hits with a .357 magnum?

Torso hits on a 300 pound man is NOT the same thing as center of mass.

You have to get into center of mass, not just a bunch of flabby fat in the periphery. Center of mass is the part of your body located between your nipples.

The man in your anecdote did not recieve 4 hits with a 357 to center of mass.

 

[Weevil]

Torso hits on a 300 pound man is NOT the same thing as center of mass.

You have to get into center of mass, not just a bunch of flabby fat in the periphery.

Terribly sorry about that but upon further investigation it appears the first report I used was wrong........


........it was actually five hits to the chest.



Corporal Mark Coates was shot and killed after stopping a car for weaving in traffic on I-95 near the Georgia border. During the traffic stop the suspect began to struggle with Corporal Coates and they both fell to the ground. The suspect fired a .22 caliber handgun into Corporal Coates' chest, but the round was stopped by his vest.

Corporal Coates was able to force the man off of him and return fire, striking the suspect five times in the chest with his .357 caliber revolver. As he retreated for cover and to radio for backup, the suspect fired another shot. The round struck Trooper Coates in the left armpit and traveled into his heart. The suspect survived the incident and was sentenced to life in prison.

Corporal Coates had been with the South Carolina Highway patrol for 5 years, and had previously served with the United States Marine Corps. He was survived by his wife, two sons, parents, sister and brother.


http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-trooper-mark-hunter-coates



Does that satisfy the criteria???

 

[Balrog]

It doesnt matter how many times he missed vital organs. You can't miss often or fast enough to kill someone.

 

[Weevil]

It doesnt matter how many times he missed vital organs. You can't miss often or fast enough to kill someone.

Fair enough, so how is it we can guarantee that if we shoot someone in the chest 5x that the bullets will absolutely and for certain hit something vital???

 

[Balrog]

Fair enough, so how is it we can guarantee that if we shoot someone in the chest 5x that the bullets will absolutely and for certain hit something vital???

You can't.

 

[smhbbag1]

Fair enough, so how is it we can guarantee that if we shoot someone in the chest 5x that the bullets will absolutely and for certain hit something vital???

Well, if you have a shotgun, that's 45 or more holes in the guy. One of them will do the job

 

[Weevil]

You can't.

No you can't.



Besides all Maj Dad asked for was;

I defy any one to show an instance when a person was shot 4 times center mass and didn't go down (with a 38 spl on up but for sure with a 45).

He never said anything about hitting vital organs.

 

[Coolbreeze8804]

hmmm.... two thoughts...
Momma always told me "nothin' good is gonna happen after midnight anyway. get some sleep"
And
Aren't handguns completely and totally outlawed in that part of the world? Doesn't the rule of gun control say that this couldn't happen anyway so it's all fiction?

 

[Weevil]

Well, if you have a shotgun, that's 45 or more holes in the guy. One of them will do the job

Well yeah of course I'll take a shotgun over a pistol any ol' day but a legal one is a wee bit tough to carry on your hip or even in a shoulder holster.

 

[Balrog]

He never said anything about hitting vital organs.

The reason you want to aim for center of mass is because vital organs are located in center of mass. There would be nothing special about center of mass if that were not the case.

 

[Weevil]

The reason you want to aim for center of mass is because vital organs are located in center of mass. There would be nothing special about center of mass if that were not the case.

Well of course and I'm sure that's what Officer Coates had been trained to do and is in fact what he accomplished.

It was just his bad luck that none of those well placed COM shots to the man's chest hit anything vital.



None the less he shot him 5X with .38spl on up, COM, and he did not go down.

 

[Balrog]

None the less he shot him 5X with .38spl on up, COM, and he did not go down.

Why are you saying he was shot COM? The article says he was shot in the chest.

 

[Weevil]

Why are you saying he was shot COM?

Because he hit him in the chest.


What is your definition of COM???


Come on Balrog, you're nitpicking.

 

[Balrog]

Come on Balrog, you're nitpicking

No I really dont mean to be nitpicking here. I would say from an anatomical standpoint that COM is the area between the nipples, where the heart and great vessels are located. Anything outside the nipples is unlikely to be a lethal injury, assuming there is prompt medical attention. Even a lung shot is not likely to be lethal or cause immediate incapacitation as long as it is peripheral. A 300 pound man is going to have about 3 inches of fat outside his thoracic cavity, and a shot through any of that fat would still be considered a chest hit, but certainly not COM.

 

[Weevil]

No I really dont mean to be nitpicking here. I would say from an anatomical standpoint that COM is the area between the nipples, where the heart and great vessels are located. Anything outside the nipples is unlikely to be a lethal injury, assuming there is prompt medical attention. Even a lung shot is not likely to be lethal or cause immediate incapacitation as long as it is peripheral. A 300 pound man is going to have about 3 inches of fat outside his thoracic cavity, and a shot through any of that fat would still be considered a chest hit, but certainly not COM.

Well sorry but I don't have a wound diagram of Off. Coates attacker to pin point the exact shots and verify they were between the nipples, so I guess you win.


The best I can come up with is a guy that was shot 5X in the chest with a .357 magnum who did not go down.

 

[Slamfire]

I have been looking at my book "Gunshot Injuries" by LaGarde. http://www.amazon.com/Gunshot-Injur...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275786727&sr=1-1

Colonel Louis La Garde was influential in the studies that lead to the adoption of the 45 ACP.

His book is full of shooting statistics and actual incidents from the pre WW1 era. Every part of the body is examined for treatment, lethality of wounds.

So there are accounts of people who have been absolutely shot up, yet survived. However, they are the exception rather than the rule.

I recall a statement by Dr Fackler, something to the effect that bleed out (and maybe hits to the Central Nervous system) are the only guaranteed death mechanisms. Maybe I am totally off. But if you don’t damage the human Central Processor, than what is left is bleed out.

Sometimes, people don’t bleed out because nothing big was punctured.

 

[hardluk1]

Can the guy shot say. Thanks for useing hard ball ammo

 

[Sapper771]

Even if solid COM hits are placed, and no CNS hits obtained, Bleeding out from major blood vessels can take up to 15 to 30 seconds, sometimes more. 15 to 30 seconds is a long time in a gun fight. Plenty of time to shoot back/run/fight. There are documented direct hits to the heart where the assailant still continued to fight, but later died.

I guess the only solid solution is to keep shooting til they go down. A bullet with enough penetration to penetrate through the ribcage, lungs, vessels, cartilage and still have enough power to wreck the spinal column/cord would help too.

I have heard of some recomending the pelvis as a good target. It may be, but I have also seen cases where bullets have ricocheted off the pelvis and exit out of the body. A good solid hit to the pelvis, that shatters it, would more than likely put the assailant down, but just because they are down doesn't necessarily put them out of the fight.

 

[Weevil]

Well I was able to come up with a better example.

How about 17 hits "COM" with a .40 and the guy lived 4 minutes after the last shot???



Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs—considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-...l;jsessionid=10BDC02F0CF4D0B083E43EA06A47B949




Well Balrog does that satisfy the criteria???

.

 

[Hammerhead6814]

10mm Auto. Nuff said.

 

[Balrog]

10mm Auto. Nuff said.

10mm is a good round, but no reason to believe it will perform better if you miss vital structures.

 

[Weevil]

You mean vital structures like the heart???


The 17-year-old old shot near Santa Ana High School May 6 survived the bullet that pierced his heart, said Santa Ana police Cpl. Anthony Bertagna. He remains in serious condition.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/police-248730-shooting-bertagna.html



My conclusion that no handgun is powerful enough to physically stop an assailant comes from Col. Martin Fackler, M.D., a battle surgeon and world class expert who until his retirement headed the Armed Forces' Wound Ballistic Laboratory. He cites an instance in which a victim shot at short range with a shotgun had his heart shredded yet managed to run 60 feet before collapsing.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/che-talk/828-stopping-power.html



Oh and that last link also has the .45 example Maj Dad wanted.

Although it does just say 8 torso shots so I can't verify they were between the nipples.


Or, consider the following case from my career as a lawyer. The offender was a skinny man of ordinary size who was neither drunk nor on drugs. But he was very, very angrily engaged in a neighborhood dispute. When my client and other officers attempted to search him he drew a Llama .380 which he picked up again after one officer knocked it from his hand. Unbeknownst to anyone, when the Llama fell it struck a rock which actuated its Colt-type magazine release, ejecting the slide and rendering the weapon inoperative because of its magazine safety. My client shot him eight times in the torso with a .45 ACP (1911A1). My client then took cover because the offender was still standing, pointing the Llama and vainly pulling its trigger. Eventually he lay down and died, having bled out.

 

[AdamSean]

I currently carry a .380 for its concealability. I shoot it very accurately. Shot placement is the most important thing IMO. I also have read that about 80% of all gun shot victims survive. Something to think about.

 

[Balrog]

You mean vital structures like the heart???

Yes, people will sometimes even survive injuries to the heart and other vital structures. But I am unsure what your point is?

You are less likely to survive an injury to the heart that an injury to the flabby tissue outside the chest cavity, but still on "the torso".

I would always prefer to hit COM between the nipples than anywhere else.

My conclusion that no handgun is powerful enough to physically stop an assailant comes from Col. Martin Fackler, M.D., a battle surgeon and world class expert who until his retirement headed the Armed Forces' Wound Ballistic Laboratory. He cites an instance in which a victim shot at short range with a shotgun had his heart shredded yet managed to run 60 feet before collapsing.

I agree.