10mm Question?

I pretty much reload my own 10mm as they are expensive to feed.I mostly use new Starline brass but do reload some once fired brass from time to time. The drawback as stated below is some people will load their 10mm hot.

As stated earlier in this thread the case is longer so it is my understanding some of the agencies didn't use it as an issue round due to some of the users hand being a little smaller.

I guess this is the reason Glock 20 and 21 frames/mags are pretty much the same size and not really interchangeable like say the 17 and 22 size frame.

As for recoil I haven't noticed a whole lot between 10mm and 45. There are some who will load their 10mm to max pressure and I'm sure you will notice that after a few rounds. I have heard the comparison of 10mm to 41 magnum hence I think that may be why some are issued and/or carried in bear country. I myself haven't seen too many bear here in Texas but I do carry mine just in case. LOL

Kachok, I don't have a problem with 1911 frame guns but all of mine have a flat mainspring housing and slim grips. They just fit my hand better. You really should get a Tangfoglio in your hand BIL has one and it fits your hand much better with hc mags.

Cheers,

ts

The short frame glocks (SF suffix) feel much better in the hand for most people.

Corbon, Double-Tap, and Buffalo Bore all make some pretty crackin' SD loads, IIRC. Most of the Hornady stuff, OTOH, seems to basically be .40 loads in a longer case. At least that was my sense.

I'm not a Glock guy, but I have shot a friend's Glock 20 and 29. I found the recoil to be very managable in both, though more than in my steel-framed 10mm. But if you're used to carrying full size guns, why give up the control?

I've carried a G29 for a year or so now and I do like it, it conceals well under a t-short or outer shirt, recoil is full, but no where near uncomfortable.

Ammo sourcing is a problem, cabelas usually carries the Remington UMC, which I like, for $24-30 a box. But, you can't go down the street and get target 10mm loads all that often.

Loosedhorse said:

Like what? Fragmentation on striking target is not necessarily undesirable. Jacket rips before getting to target would be, but I haven't heard of that outside of over-spun .223s. And neither sounds very likely with, for example, an FMJ bullet.

If nothing else, there is the Tac-XP family: 155, 140, and 125--as these are all-copper: hard to imagine what the "bad thing" will be when these are used as intended.

And perusing the manufacturer's websites, most bullets seem to be labeled .40/10. I guess the manufacturer's could be lying about their bullets being suitable for 10mm, which is what you seem to imply.

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Well fragmentation in handgun rounds is indeed a bad thing. Fragmenting is a bad thing especially when you may be encountering intermediate barriers. These barriers can be anything from dry wall to a car windshield. If you think about it barriers are likely scenario in a SD situation weather you are a civilian or LEO. Your example of an FMJ is a moot point, naturally a non expanding bullet will perform pretty much the same no matter what. That was not my point.
As for your perusal of the manufacturers web sites and their statements about the .40 and 10mm bullets being interchangeable, yes they are in so much as they are the same diameter. However with that, a bullet DESIGNED to be pushed to say 1000 fps and function properly, as in a .40 cal, will not usually perform as well if pushed to 1250 or 1300. It's just that simple. You can't have something for nothing. I am not saying that the manufacturers’ are lying, they are telling the truth, however it is not the whole truth. Can .40 cal bullets be used in a 10mm? Yes. Will the perform adequately? I don't truly know in all cases. Some may, but most will not.

I would agree that Double-Tap and Buffalo Bore are probably your best choices for hot loads in the 10mm, but there is another one out there that is off the radar.

Elite Ammunition, has a few 10mm loadings that I believe are supposed to be the "hottest" out there. They are loaded above SAMMI specs on the other hand and I believe need a stiffer spring in order to function properly (not 100% on that).

http://www.eliteammunition.net/other_ammunition.html

I go through this company to get non-watered down 5.7x25 ammo and haven't been disappointed with them in that respect. I do own their 10mm rounds but haven't shot any as my gun is still being made. Just letting you guys know of more options out there as they are not that popular, they specialize in less available calibers.

Fragmenting is a bad thing especially when you may be encountering intermediate barriers. These barriers can be anything from dry wall to a car windshield.

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Well, the rounds I mentioned tend to fragment in tissue simulant (and, presumably, tissue). When they encounter other obstacles, they tend to get their HP cavity plugged and act like FMJ.

The fact that rounds fragment in tissue simulant does not mean that they behave the same way when encountering "anything from dry wall to a car windshield."

(BTW: I am not sure exactly when I would want a SD round to penetrate dry-wall or a car windshield. Anything could happen, for sure. But the likelihood of me shooting through a windshield, or shooting through opaque drywall--Rule 4 violation--seems small compared to that of a professional LE force that routinely does felony vehicle stops, for example. After all, windshield penetration was a big reason that Dirty Harry peferred the .44 Magnum! But I might consider that type of penetration lower down on my list of ammo requirements. YMMV.)

Loosedhorse said:

(BTW: I am not sure exactly when I would want a SD round to penetrate dry-wall or a car windshield. Anything could happen, for sure. But the likelihood of me shooting through a windshield, or shooting through opaque drywall--Rule 4 violation--seems small compared to that of a professional LE force that rotinely does felony vehicle stops, for example.)

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I don't know what rule 4 is, but it doesn’t sound like something I would want to bet my ass on. Just putting that out there... I guess if you have every scenario gamed out in your head that involves you having to use deadly force, then you are a much better man than I.

I don't know what rule 4 is,

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'Nuff said.

I'm with you, Loosedhorse. Cops have to be prepared to shoot a guy driving a car. That's really, really unlikely to happen to me. I'm much more likely to need/want an intermediate barrier to stop a round that missed. In the end, if there's a solid object between me and another person, I probably shouldn't be shooting at that person anyway.

I kind of have a love/hate relationship with the G20 and G20 SF that I have. Both Glocks have aftermarket Lonewolf barrels (also a 6" KKM tube) as a result of a seriously bulged Winchester casing that had been fired in a factory (unsupported) Glock barrel.

It's fun caliber to shoot, but my trigger finger gets pinched and I'm good for about 70 rounds at the range shooting handloads. IMR 800X and Longshot powders (to name a few) can put the Glock 20s into .44mag recoil numbers and those powders can over stress .40 S&W designed bullets at true 10mm velocities.

Here's the results of some testing that I've done comparing some 10mm loads/ammunition to both the .40 and .45auto calibers;

(***where Vcav equals the lower velocity limit of the cavitation regime, Mw equals the predicted mass of the tissue within the wound cavity and Xcm equals the predicted penetration in soft tissue/calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin)

Federal .40S&W 165 gr. HST JHP (P40HST3) v. four layers of denim
Vi = 1130 feet per second
Mr = 165.3 grains
Dr = 0.643 inch (1.61x cal)

Vcav = 397.316 feet per second
Mw = 50.993 grams (1.799 ounce)
Xcm = 33.807 centimeters (13.310 inches)


.40 S&W 165 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP v. 4 layers of denim

Vi = 1127 feet per second
Dr = 0.648 inch (1.62x cal)
Mr= 164.4 grains

Vc = 120.821 meters per second (396.394 feet per second)
Mw = 47.916 grams (1.690 ounces)
Xcm = 37.139 centimeters (14.622 inches)

Winchester .40S&W 180 gr. PDX1 JHP
Impact velocity: 1080 fps (466 fpe)
Recovered weight: 180 gr.
Average recovered diameter: 0.609"

Vcav = 405.563 fps
Mw = 52.229 grams (1.842 ounces)
Xcm = 39.008 cm (15.357 inches)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Speer 10mm 155 gr. "Gold Dot" JHP
Impact Velocity: 1420 fps/694fpe
Retained Weight: 132.9 grains (85.74%)

Vc: 371.823 fps
Mw: 45.820 gm (1.616 oz)
Xcm: 21.761 cm (8.567 in)

Hornady 10mm 155 gr. "XTP" JHP
Impact Velocity: 1570 fps
Retained Weight: 117.0 grains (75.48%)

Vc: 395.895 fps
Mw: 41.177 gm (1.453 oz)
Xcm: 27.855 cm (10.996 in)

Winchester 10mm 175 gr. Silver Tip JHP
Impact Velocity: 1389 fps
Retained Weight: 150.1 grains (85.77%)

Vc: 384.815 fps
Mw: 50.533 gm (1.783 oz)
Xcm: 28.210 cm (11.106 in)

10mm Nosler 180 gr. JHP v. 4 layers of denim

Vi = 1264 feet per second
Dr = 0.720 inch
Mr= 178.8 grains

Vc = 117.062 meters per second (384.060 feet per second)
Mw = 59.336 grams (2.093 ounces)
Xcm = 31.739 centimeters (12.496 inches)

10mm 180 gr. Remington Golden Sabre JHP
Impact velocity: 1243 fps/618fpe
Average recovered diameter: 0.698"

Vcav = 389.302 fps
Mw = 58.906 grams (2.078 ounces)
Xcm = 33.361 cm (13.134 inches)

Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Impact velocity: 1296 fps
Recovered weight: 118.7 gr. (65.9%)
Average recovered diameter: 0.565" (1.41x cal)

Vcav = 414.791 fps
Mw = 37.459 grams (1.321 ounces)
Xcm = 33.350 cm (13.130 inches)

10mm 180 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP v. 4 layers of denim

Vi = 1267 feet per second
Dr = 0.614 inch
Mr= 178.3 grains

Vc = 122.790 meters per second (402.855 feet per second)
Mw = 58.041 grams (2.047 ounces)
Xcm = 40.939 centimeters (16.118 inches)


Hornady 10mm 180 gr. XTP JHP
Impact velocity: 1294 fps
Recovered weight: 144.7 gr. (80.4%)
Average recovered diameter: 0.623"

Vcav = 397.071 fps
Mw = 46.494 grams (1.640 ounces)
Xcm = 33.940 cm (13.362 inches)

10mm Hornady 180 gr. XTP JHP v. 4 layers of denim

Vi = 1265 feet per second
Dr = 0.631 inch
Mr= 180.0 grains

Vc = 121.788 meters per second (399.568 feet per second)
Mw = 58.756 grams (2.073 ounces)
Xcm = 39.451 centimeters (15.532 inches)

For hunting purposes, the 180gr XTP can be loaded >1300fps given hunting's longer distances. However, if loading for personal defense distances, mid 1200s should be the handloaders goal. There are hunters who have used this bullet to harvest elk.

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WinchesterUSA .45ACP 230 gr. JHP (USA45JHP)
Muzzle Velocity: 870 feet per second
Impact Velocity: 865 feet per second
Kinetic Energy = 517.998 Joules

Recovered Projectile Data:
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.735 inch
Retained Weight: 229.2 grains (99.65%)
Shape Aspect: symmetric, concave expansion face
Total Length: 0.421 inch

MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:

Vc = 381.666 feet per second
Mw = 62.264 grams (2.196 ounces)
Xcm = 31.913 cm (12.564 inches)

.45ACP Winchester Bonded PDX1 230 gr. JHP
Impact velocity: 889 fps (404fpe)
Average recovered diameter: 0.680"

Vcav = 392.366 fps
Mw = 62.603 grams (2.208 ounces)
Xcm = 36.748 cm (14.468 inches)

Remington .45ACP 230 gr. "Golden Sabre" JHP
Impact Velocity: 971 fps
Retained Weight: 182.4 grains (79.30%)

Vc: 400.698 fps
Mw: 50.193 gm (1.771 oz)
Xcm: 35.165 cm (13.844 in)

.45ACP 230 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Exp 0.735”
Vi = 984 feet per second (494fpe)
Wr= 230.9 grains

Vc = 383.316 feet per second
Mw = 67.378 grams (2.377 oz)
Xin = 13.486 inches (34.253 cm)

Hornady .45ACP 230 gr. +P XTP JHP (#9096) v. four layers of denim
Vi = 916.7 feet per second
Mr = 229.6 grains (99.83% retained mass)
Dr = 0.595 inch (1.3171x caliber)

Vcav = 402.829 feet per second
Mw = 63.390 grams (2.236 ounces)
Xcm = 46.430 centimeters (18.279 inches)

Winchester Ranger .45 ACP 230 gr. +P JHP (RA45TP) v. four layers of denim
Vi = 990 feet per second
Mr = 230.2 grains
Dr = 0.769 inch

Vcav = 372.928 feet per second
Mw = 68.886 grams (2.430 ounces)
Xcm = 31.951 centimeters (12.579 inches)

Winchester Ranger .45 ACP 230 gr. +P JHP (RA45TP) v. heavy bone

Recovered Projectile Data:
Recovered Diameter: 0.6675" (1.4781x caliber))
Retained Mass: 229.7 gr.
Impact Velocity: 990 fps

Predicted Performance:
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 390.249 fps
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 67.304 grams (2.374 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 40.037 cm (15.763 inches)

The Golden Saber fragmented when pushed into the upper 900s; however, the 230gr GD and Win RA45TP are monster loads that hit very hard and create larger crush cavities than the 10mm.

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The one person who probably saved the 10mm is Mike McNett who started Double Tap ammo.

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

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Looks like the DT 45auto 230gr GD runs heads-up (penetration/expansion) with the 10mm/180gr GD despite the 10mm's greater KE advantage. Another vote for the momentum model if you want to compare numbers. [

A bit over a year ago, McNett added a 125 gr Tac-XP (DPX) load for 10 and .40, quoting 1600 and 1390fps, respectively. He also has a 230gr hardcast @ 1120 for 10.

Loosedhorse said:

A bit over a year ago, McNett added a 125 gr Tac-XP (DPX) load for 10 and .40, quoting 1600 and 1390fps, respectively. He also has a 230gr hardcast @ 1120 for 10.

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I ordered DT's 230gr WFN and was very disappointed with its QA. A random sample of 10 bullets weighed between 221grs-223grs and a lot of lube was missing. The 200gr WFNs were spot on and I prefer them over the 230gr offerings.

I haven't done a lot of testing with the Barnes bullet, but in one test 3 petals folded backward while the oppposite 3 petals remained expanded, that resulted in the bullet tumbling. The same petal issue can be found in JHP bullets across the board, so it's not a knock against only Barnes. A great feature of the Barnes bullet is that it will hold up at the advertised 1600fps and not fragment.

How can 10mm be advantageous over .40S&W against 4-legged predators, but the two be roughly equal against 2-legged predators? Doesn't just about everyone swear by the old adage, carry the most powerful gun you're proficient with?

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Humans ain't as hard to kill as a 500 lb black bear. A 124 gr 9mm hollowpoint @ 1200 fps stops a human as well as anything. Any more is just a waste. A 200 gr 10mm hardcast semi-wadutter @1300 fps won't stop a human any faster, but will penetrate deep enough to make a difference on larger tougher animals.

Yes, there some police departments in the US that still use them. There aren't a lot though, but that has much more to do with the cost of ammo than anything else. They can't reload, and so why use a round that costs much more than another?

To the civilian and especially the reloader/handloader, the 10mm is THE cartridge. It is VERY flexible. You can get fast/light like a .357mag but bigger, or slow/heavy like a .45 but better sectional density. It has more energy than any other standard semi auto handgun cartridge (there are a couple of wildcats, one of the sooperdooper .45's that are higher, but they are even much less common than 10mm) and lies between the .357mag and the .41mag in terms of power. The G20 has 15rd. mags, the G29 10rd. I think it is the best calibre for defense that one can get.

I love mine. They are more accurate than my .40, much safer and easier to reload for compared to .40, and just a joy to shoot. The .40 really works the best with the 165gr. bullet, but the 10mm works great with everything from 135gr. to 200gr.

The .40 is just a specialized 10mm round, cut down to allow the use of a 9mm frame, but it really stretches that to the limit. In fact, the only differences in the cartridge really are that the 10mm is a little longer (not only allowing more powder, but keeping the long 10mm bullets from seating so deep and keeping pressure down) and the 10mm uses a large primer. The loading dies for .40 and 10mm are the same dies, just like .357 and .38spcl. But the .40 is "good enough" in most cases, much cheaper to shoot factory ammo, and fits smaller hands and larger hands alike, so it has become the LE round of choice.

As for recoil, I have Glocks in 9mm, .40, .45ACP, 10mm. The G27 has far more felt recoil and impulse (the snap) than the 10mm G29. I was told this by my army buddy, his 16yo. daughter who shot up all my 10mm practice ammo, and my wife. They all liked a milder 10mm load (but still too hot to load in a .40) using a heavy bullet, like 180gr. or 200gr. I carry a stiff but certainly not a "hot" load (it is a book load) 180gr. XTP at over 1200fps from a G29. You can get 'em up to 1300+, but that overdoes it a little. My G27 gets similar performance --but from 135gr. Corbon loads!

Factory 10mm ammo is generally loaded so weak as to not be worth it. Double Tap and Buffalo Bore load hot ammo, but it still costs more than what I load, and I've heard of QC problems with DT. The stuff made by the well known companies, Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc., are all anemic. I don't even bother with factory 10mm ammo. Most of it is just .40 loads in 10mm cases! I've even seen .40 loads that were more powerful than the 10mm load between two different companies, different bullets but same weight. So if you don't load for this one, it really isn't worth it. If you don't load, the .40 is a far better choice, seriously.

But if you do load, you can get great performance with it using book loads, you don't have to hotrod it. I really don't understand why ammo makers don't make their 10mm stuff a little spicier, more like their own loading data!? The pistols can take it no problem, albeit some better than others. The strength in chamber thickness generally goes, from thick to thin, the old Smith and Wesson semi autos, The Glock pistols, the Delta Elite. But the Delta Elite has better chamber support than the Glock, so that makes up for some. The old Smiths were tanks. Not sure about where EAA an others fit in.

I like the G29 for carry, the G20 for range and woods, and I want a Smith, perhaps for both.

If you do go 10mm, if you do go to loading your own, it opens up a whole new world of shooting, like specialty rounds and rounds that perform best in your particular firearms. You can also use any wildcat and it won't kill you on cost. In addition to 10mm and the "basic" fare like .308, .223, 9mm, etc., I also load/shoot 6.5Grendel, .50Beowulf, and I'll be loading .300BLK soon, along with .338Lapua and maybe .416Barrett in the future. No way I could afford to shoot those truly AWESOME rounds without reloading. In addition to reloading, I handload too --I get all new components and make "factory" new ammo myself. These are generally what I carry when I carry my own loads.

For some reason, the best calibres are the obscure calibres. I don't get it, I really don't. But if you go 10mm, you should really load your own, and if you load your own, the way to make it pay off the most is if you intend on shooting a few obscure or expensive calibres.

Loosedhorse said:

'Nuff said.

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Care to enlighten me then? What rules that apply to any gun fight that you have ever been in could you be talking about?

pisc1024 said:

Care to enlighten me then? What rules that apply to any gun fight that you have ever been in could you be talking about?

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The one that applies to over-penetration:

Be aware of your target and what's behind it

FadingSwordsman said:

The one that applies to over-penetration:

Be aware of your target and what's behind it

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The risk of over penetration is inherent with almost any round that will successfully pass the FBI standards. This is there to help ensure that the round will penetrate sufficiently through the body at any angle.

pisc1024 said:

The risk of over penetration is inherent with almost any round that will successfully pass the FBI standards. This is there to help ensure that the round will penetrate sufficiently through the body at any angle.

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Yeah, but when you're shooting through dry wall to hit someone, you aren't exactly aware of what's behind your target.

And over-penetration only really comes into play with rule 4 violations...

FadingSwordsman said:

Yeah, but when you're shooting through dry wall to hit someone, you aren't exactly aware of what's behind your target.

And over-penetration only really comes into play with rule 4 violations...

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A windshield too?
I can see your point with dry wall. Some people would not feel comfortable taking shots like that. I had a friend however who was shot several times while making a SWAT entry into a crack house. He was shot by a teenager through the wall of a bed room. My friend returned fire back through the wall as he was laying on the floor.
I know you are going to say "well he was a swat cop..." All I'm saying is that you just don't ever know. You don't know when you may be called upon to make a shot through dry wall with some one behind it. If you did know what was going to happen then obviously yes you could tailor your ammo load out for it. I feel though, as some one who carries a gun, if you are LEO or not, it is wise to choose ammo that will perform adequately through intermediate barriers. The scenarios faced by COPS are a real possibility for the no LEO too.
Sorry if the response is a little long winded

pisc1024 said:

A windshield too?
I can see your point with dry wall. Some people would not feel comfortable taking shots like that. I had a friend however who was shot several times while making a SWAT entry into a crack house. He was shot by a teenager through the wall of a bed room. My friend returned fire back through the wall as he was laying on the floor.
I know you are going to say "well he was a swat cop..." All I'm saying is that you just don't ever know. You don't know when you may be called upon to make a shot through dry wall with some one behind it. If you did know what was going to happen then obviously yes you could tailor your ammo load out for it. I feel though, as some one who carries a gun, if you are LEO or not, it is wise to choose ammo that will perform adequately through intermediate barriers. The scenarios faced by COPS are a real possibility for the no LEO too.
Sorry if the response is a little long winded

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Rereading your previous post, I have to agree with you... For some reason I thought you were on the side advocating the whole "OMG over penetration means we should all download rounds to break on one walllll" camp... Apologies, my reading comprehension must be failing me tonight...

Back to the issue: you don't want your bullets to fragment. Even without violating the 4th rule, you could hit, say, a metal lighter/flask/necklace where fragmenting prevents penetration and diverts energy sideways instead of through a barrier.

Gary Napolitano hosted a list of LE agencies that used 10mm handguns...

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Raleigh NC PD switched to .45ACP.

FadingSwordsman said:

Rereading your previous post, I have to agree with you... For some reason I thought you were on the side advocating the whole "OMG over penetration means we should all download rounds to break on one walllll" camp... Apologies, my reading comprehension must be failing me tonight...

Back to the issue: you don't want your bullets to fragment. Even without violating the 4th rule, you could hit, say, a metal lighter/flask/necklace where fragmenting prevents penetration and diverts energy sideways instead of through a barrier.

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No worries on the reading thing, no one ever accused me of being a skillful writer, so the blame could just as easily fall on me.

You also made a great point on the fragmentation of rounds. The last thing I would want to do is be forced to shoot at an adversary only to have my rounds be diverted away by some object. I worry a lot about barrier performance. I feel that handgun rounds don't have a lot going for them so I like to get as much weight retention as I can with mine. Rifles I think have a little more wiggle room with it, but not much.