Will online gun sales eventually replace local gun stores?

It is unstoppable. Like physics, it is undeniable, unwavering, and uncaring. One can argue about the effects of gravity while plunging to ones' abrupt stop, but I doubt gravity will be persuaded.

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That is an interesting way to relieve yourself of your responsibility as a consumer when more and more gun shops go out of business. When you have none left to buy used guns from or to do your transfers, you will have only yourself to blame.

You guys must visit magical shops that I do not. I've been to a lot of gun shops in many states in the last 30yrs and my overwhelming impression is that they DO NOT like doing transfers of new guns for all the reasons stated. But you have your justification, so carry on kind sirs with your heads buried firmly in the sand.

That is an interesting way to relieve yourself of your responsibility as a consumer when more and more gun shops go out of business.

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My responsibility as a consumer? Good God I'm failing at that already, why change now? For example I have yet to buy a new car in my life, guess I'm to blame for the death of the local car dealership.

So if the gun shops are going to go out of business from them, where are the guns coming from? They are coming from gun shops (usually better ones!)!

The truth is the shops that don't sell online, have poor customer service and charge people crazy money for transfers are the ones that are going to go out of business. I'm in the process of purchasing 2 guns this week and I can tell you that I've dealt with 3 different local shops and none had what I wanted. They weren't interested in ordering them for me and they never even returned my calls. When I walked in to one, the guy was in there with his 3 friends smoking cigars, the place was filthy, and when he finally bothered to listen to me, he said "good luck finding that" and walked away....end of conversation.

One day later they are both being sent to me for the price I wanted and a shop is doing both transfers for a total of $25. If that awful shop and the somewhat awful others go out of business it will be no one's fault but their own. You reap what you sew. If you go under it won't be because of transfers...it will be due to your lack of business sense, lack of embracing new technology, and lack of customer service skills. The GUN SHOP I ordered them from online was very friendly and shipped it out the same day. Easy as that.

I bought a pistol online last week and had it shipped to a local FFL that is a pawn shop/gun store. They charged me $35 for the transfer which is $10 higher than a home based FFL I have used in the past. I asked them their price and they told me and I agreed.

They had to fax their paperwork to the seller in another state. They had to receive the package from UPS. They had to call in the paperwork before I could take possession. Probably less than an hour of total work and charged me $35 which probably works out okay for them or they wouldn't do it.

While I was waiting they showed me an old revolver that I bought on the same paperwork. Before I left I also bought an old shotgun. That needs to be the plan for the LGS if they want to survive. Customer service is something that a lot of small businesses just don't understand. They feel that because they are "local" the citizens somehow owe them the business. Businesses, gun or anything else, simply must adapt to changing habits. They don't have to like them. They don't have to want them. They DO have to adapt or they will go out of business. We all know that the internet is here to stay and it impacts pretty much ALL businesses. It's not going away. Customers will buy where they feel they are getting the best deal and the best service.

There are usually three things that a company offers: Price, Service, and Quality. Very few businesses can supply all three of these. The LGS MUST provide the service that an online seller can't provide. They generally can't beat the price and a new S&W is the same online or at the store so quality is equal on new guns. Online guys cannot offer the service that a local guy can provide.

Buying online a person does not have to put up with the gun store commandos. Some of these guys are real hard to put up with. Some day when I retire I just wish I know half as much as these guys think they do.

CraigC said:

That is an interesting way to relieve yourself of your responsibility as a consumer when more and more gun shops go out of business. When you have none left to buy used guns from or to do your transfers, you will have only yourself to blame.

You guys must visit magical shops that I do not. I've been to a lot of gun shops in many states in the last 30yrs and my overwhelming impression is that they DO NOT like doing transfers of new guns for all the reasons stated. But you have your justification, so carry on kind sirs with your heads buried firmly in the sand.

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Does a LGS not have a responsibility to treat customers with respect and adapt ?



No they don't have a responsibility. It is their choice, but they can be foolish and treat customers bad. They can be foolish and keep their heads in the sand about the changing marketplace.



Local gun stores are not going away. I know of 2 local kitchen table ffl that sell used guns online and via classifieds. If the local gun store closes it is most likely their own fault

Ask the owners of that LGS why they prefer to do business with particular distributors, and they will tell you : 1) They value my business 2) They have competitive pricing 3) they have what I need or get it on a timely basis.

Then they want 25% more than Bud's for a gun Bud's has in stock and they can't get until who-knows-when-if-ever. Well, if'n you're in a hurry, we'll do a transfer for $125. You want some reloading supplies, or a holster, or something else I don't stock? Well, I won't order it until enough orders pile up to make it worth my time.

MidwayUSA, Brownell's, Bud's, SGAmmo, and scores of others are happy to serve me. I still buy from my LGS when they have something to sell.

Teachu2 said:

Ask the owners of that LGS why they prefer to do business with particular distributors, and they will tell you : 1) They value my business 2) They have competitive pricing 3) they have what I need or get it on a timely basis.





Then they want 25% more than Bud's for a gun Bud's has in stock and they can't get until who-knows-when-if-ever. Well, if'n you're in a hurry, we'll do a transfer for $125. You want some reloading supplies, or a holster, or something else I don't stock? Well, I won't order it until enough orders pile up to make it worth my time.





MidwayUSA, Brownell's, Bud's, SGAmmo, and scores of others are happy to serve me. I still buy from my LGS when they have something to sell.

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very good point. There is not s LGS that doesn't look for the same things in distributers that we look for in merchants. All LGS look to save money on things they buy.

CraigC said:

I have to agree with George here. Buying a new gun from Bud's and then expecting your local shop to handle the transfer with a smile is downright rude and disrespectful. A shop can't stay open only doing transfers. Who wants to run that business anyway? I would hate to know I had to run a gun shop and depend on it to feed my family. Too many people bargain shopping online and looking for the lowest price no matter what. The problem in America is greed at every level, including the consumer level and this is a good example of that. If you bought a new gun online and came to me for the transfer, I'd double the fee.

The only guns I buy online are those I can't get new. If it's a new gun, I'll order it from the local shop. I would hate like hell to know that the only local firearms outlet was someone who only had an FFL to do transfers.

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Hmm... a LGS I used several times for transfers was very happy for the business. They loved it when I bought six or eight... up to twelve firearms at a time. That's pretty good money in their cash register for what's maybe a half hour's work... $25 for the first firearm and $10 each after that.

CraigC said:

That is an interesting way to relieve yourself of your responsibility as a consumer when more and more gun shops go out of business. When you have none left to buy used guns from or to do your transfers, you will have only yourself to blame.

You guys must visit magical shops that I do not. I've been to a lot of gun shops in many states in the last 30yrs and my overwhelming impression is that they DO NOT like doing transfers of new guns for all the reasons stated. But you have your justification, so carry on kind sirs with your heads buried firmly in the sand.

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No disrespect intended but I'm not paying my LGS $1000 plus tax for an AR I can buy online for $700 shipped plus a $25 FFL fee. I'm also not paying $40/box plus tax for ammo I can buy for $20/box shipped. No guilty feelings here if the LGS goes OOB.

I went to several different LGS a couple of weeks ago looking for 9x18 ammo. Two of them had it for $29+ per box while a third had it for $21. I was low so I bought two boxes.

When I got home I went online and found the EXACT SAME ammo for $15.50 and even with shipping I cam in at under $17 a box of 50. You are going to have a difficult time explaining to me how I did a bad thing by not supporting the local guys and buying online. After tax I would have paid double from the local guys! Maybe I should sell THEM some ammo?

That is an interesting way to relieve yourself of your responsibility as a consumer when more and more gun shops go out of business. When you have none left to buy used guns from or to do your transfers, you will have only yourself to blame.

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What utter nonsense. I have dozens of on-line venues to buy used guns from, with dramatically more choices and stiff competition, both serving to keep prices in line.

It is the responsibility of the SELLER, not the buyer, to make the changes required for their business to thrive, including adjusting how they handle the internet as a competitor. If they ignore that reality, they will fail. Last time I looked, the majority of on-line auctions I buy from have brick and morter locations and choose to list their inventory on-line. That's smart.

If the market fails to provide a retailer with a willing customer base, that is the RETAILER's problem to fix. As I pointed out in my earlier post, my FFL has done precisely that, and he has customers lining up out the door.

Not my job to prop up an antiquaited buisness model. It is their job to pursue me as a customer.

AKElroy said:

Not my job to prop up an antiquaited buisness model. It is their job to pursue me as a customer.

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Hopefully the same people who vehemently argued that price gouging does not exist, and price inflation is just an effect of supply and demand, are not the same people proclaiming that the consumers are the ones responsible for vendor health. Where consumers choose to spend their money and how much money they choose to spend is just as much capitalism as how much a vendor decides to price their items.

Will they replace local stores? - No

Online sales have and will fundamentally change the way local guys do business and even drive some out. The stores that go with the flow and change will become more successful those that can't or won't will eventually succumb to the market.

Alot of my dealer friends use online auctions to clear there excess inventory and harder to sell items or those guns that might not be what there customer base wants.

My responsibility as a consumer?

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I reckon when all the small businesses and US manufacturers go out of business because everybody buys Chinese crap from Walmart, it's always somebody else's fault. People complain all the time that the only concern of virtually any business is the bottom line but they don't hold themselves to such lofty standards.

No disrespect intended but I'm not paying my LGS $1000 plus tax for an AR I can buy online for $700 shipped plus a $25 FFL fee.

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Nobody suggested paying exorbitant prices at local shops.

If that awful shop and the somewhat awful others go out of business it will be no one's fault but their own.

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I don't know where you guys get that I suggested buying from shops with poor customer service, rude employees, jacked up prices or people that don't want to help. I don't patronize places like that either. Never have.

However, I stand by the assertion that ordering new guns online, that I could buy directly from my local shop at competitive prices, is rude and disrespectful. I reckon nobody wants to go to the effort of developing a relationship with their local dealer but would rather just price shop from the comfort of their home and pick up their gun at their convenience. Yeah, nice. Make yourself known to your dealer and they will look out for you. Loyal customers get good prices. Your dealer will learn what you like and let you know when they get in something that might appeal to you. Do it not, because you can save $20 here and $50 there, using them only for transfers and you are just another nameless face. Good luck getting that phone call when your local transfer station gets something you've been looking for in on trade.

It's obvious to me that few actually think about this stuff or looks at it beyond the dollar signs.

Or maybe I'm just an idiot that didn't learn anything from 30yrs of building relationships and being a good customer to good gun shops.

I live in KY, so the guns I have bought from Buds I just pick up at the store. The only gun I have ever had shipped to a FFL was a special case where a bunch of forum members did a group buy on left handed Zastava Mausers. In that particular case I had it shipped to a dealer with whom I already have a good relationship and who knows me by name. He charged me $25 to do the transfer, which I thought was entirely reasonable. But he also was smart enough to know that I have bought several guns from him, and that he wasn't losing a sale because this was a special item that would never have been on his shelves.

Without gun shops there's no place for the guns to go, and no real way to negotiate a trade. I think the smart ones will do just fine.

Craig, I live just outside of a small town. There's one LGS and one pawn shop. Both are way overpriced on everything. I could drive 40-80 mile round trip to San Antonio but most of the gun shops there are overpriced too... not all but most... and I'm not driving that far just to buy a firearm. My vehicle gets 15 MPG. Add $20 in fuel cost plus $10 vehicle service/wear/tear costs plus an extra $40 for the firearm plus $40 tax and now I've paid $510 for a firearm I could have bought for $420 including my local FFL's fees... just down the road from me. That doesn't count the extra hour and a half it'll take... what's that worth? So what should I do? Spend an extra $90 and an hour or two of my time to support a LGS in SATX? Or spend at least $200 extra at my LGS here in my little town? It'd be cheaper for me just to send my LGS $100 cash donation.

Craig, the stores you speak of could really benefit from reading your sig line. Those quotes serve this argument perfectly.

No buyer can possibly be responsible for the financial health of a retailer. I have owned two businesses in my life, and both times I would have been served far better by asking myself a very simple question: "Why would someone buy from me?"

If I can't name the reasons instantly in a way that is shared by enough customers to keep me afloat, then I am headed for the abyss. It is not my buyer's responsibility to make sure I have the right answer to that question, only mine. If my buyers want to shop on-line, then I need to sell on-line. If they prefer service and a personal touch, I better be the best they have ever seen.

People buy for generally one of two reasons. They trust you, or you are the cheapest. The lack of a relationship will universally default to price, and it is the responsibility of my LGS to build that bridge.

However, I stand by the assertion that ordering new guns online, that I could buy directly from my local shop at competitive prices, is rude and disrespectful. I reckon nobody wants to go to the effort of developing a relationship with their local dealer...

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You are assuming that everybody's LGS is like yours. It sounds like you have a good one and you support it well, as you should. However, haven't you been reading about the LGS at other locations? This forum is filled with gun owners who are disgusted at how their LGS treats them. I have seen it up close and personal myself. Face it, not every gun shop is like your gun shop. Read what the posters are saying and understand that there are a lot of dogs out there who feel you should kiss their backside for even talking to you.

A local gun shop that wishes to thrive in the computer age will welcome any transfer he can get with open arms. He doesn't have to be the cheapest in town but he has to know how to treat the customer in front of him. Do you realize how expensive it is to get a customer to walk into your business? Advertising is a huge cost for any business just starting up as well as the well established businesses. Advertising is what you spend to get customers to walk into your store so you can use your sparkling personality and your merchandising talents to get them to spend more money.

A customer asks you to do a transfer for a new gun you actually carry. You take his business so you can get him into your store. Once there, you use actual sales ability to show him some accessories for his new gun. Yeah, he may shop the net for the same things but his new gun is there and he is stoked and you show him holsters, magazines, snap caps and ammo he may need. If you have a range you can offer him 25% off for today if he tries out his new gun there. Of course he needs a box of ammo. He comes out and is happy but says he didn't like the sights as much as his Gun X. You tell him that you can send his slide to Novak, or whomever, to have new sights put on, etc. You turn a $30 profit (no cost but time for a transfer) to a potentially nice profit while earning a customer's future business. While he is there you can show him the same gun he just purchased and tell him that you would have been close to his price and had it the same day. Show him you want his business and will work with him if he becomes a regular.

If he gets in a used gun and before he accepts it, you can give it a free check over to let him know if it's safe. Once he signs the 4473 and takes it home, it's his. Maybe you can see something he wouldn't because you are in the business. You can earn his trust even if you didn't sell him the gun. Sell him yourself and your business and he'll surely come back.

If he is a reloader, show him you stock the popular powders and primers and can order anything he needs. Tell him that you order more than he does so the Hazmat fee is absorbed. If he doesn't reload but is thinking about it, show him some stuff to whet his appetite. He'll come to you for his reloading supplies when he is ready to start.

Being a jerk because you can allows the customer to go elsewhere, never to return. Maybe Old Gus doesn't care because his buddys allow him to pay his bills and hang out around guns all day because his building is paid for and he's used to living on a meager income. That works for Old Gus but the new kid on the block will take what Gus tosses aside and will be glad to take their bottomless pockets of money while his retired friends cherry pick the nice, old stuff that comes in.

When he closes his doors because the internet ruined his business and Walmart stole his ammo business he can look in the mirror and blame everyone else but himself.

CraigC said:

I don't know where you guys get that I suggested buying from shops with poor customer service, rude employees, jacked up prices or people that don't want to help. I don't patronize places like that either. Never have.

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Craig you are one of my favorite posters here. I respect your wisdom, but you did make the post below. Which (at least in my opinion) that customer's should expect and actually deserve to be treated poorly if asked to do an online transfe

CraigC said:

I have to agree with George here. Buying a new gun from Bud's and then expecting your local shop to handle the transfer with a smile is downright rude and disrespectful. ................. If you bought a new gun online and came to me for the transfer, I'd double the fee. .

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Like I said the first LGS I ever used for a online transfer had an attitude and charged 2x what everyone else did. He LOST my business. He didn't lose it to the online stores he lost it because of his attitude



A consumer shouldn't have to work and strive to become a loyal customer. The merchant should work and strive to earn loyal customers.

CraigC said:

However, I stand by the assertion that ordering new guns online, that I could buy directly from my local shop at competitive prices, is rude and disrespectful. I reckon nobody wants to go to the effort of developing a relationship with their local dealer but would rather just price shop from the comfort of their home and pick up their gun at their convenience. Yeah, nice. Make yourself known to your dealer and they will look out for you. Loyal customers get good prices. Your dealer will learn what you like and let you know when they get in something that might appeal to you. Do it not, because you can save $20 here and $50 there, using them only for transfers and you are just another nameless face. Good luck getting that phone call when your local transfer station gets something you've been looking for in on trade.

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This is exacetly what has happened with the guy I use now. Only it was a mutual effort to build a relationship. I find it odd that you are suggesting being treated well by a LGS is something that should be earned. It actually should work the other way. The FFL should make an effort to develop a relationship with ME. Learn what I like. He did it. He text or emails me when he gets something in that I might like. I let him know what I am looking for and he will tell me if he can get it cheaper than online. He actually makes an effort to get me the best deal. If his price isnt the best, he does the transfer makes $25. Don't blame him because his business model is better than the lazy gun store owner who doesn't want to earn my business or learn his craft.





Yes my guy works from his home. Good for him. He is winning business all over town. He is still a local business owner. I am still supporting the local guy. Maybe one day he will open that store, whatever happens I bet he is successful

George Dickel

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
Sorry, but that's not even close to accurate.
ATF has every FFL Newsletter on their website:http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/index.html
Nothing in any of those newsletters says anything about a "brick & mortar store" nor does ATF give an "impression" that they want the licensee to have a brick and mortar storefront. They DO, however have multiple articles reiterating the requirements for holding a Federal Firearms License......none of which include a prohibition on kitchen table dealers, home businesses or requiring a commercial storefront.

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Oh, you have read every one of them since 1990 and ATF has every one of them posted since 1990?

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Yes sir, I've read all thirty six of them....and they go back to 1979, not 1990. If youll click on the link I provided you can read them too.

You sure feel free to call a person a liar on what they say, and you want me to believe you have read every news letter since 1990?

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I never called you a liar. I do believe that YOU think what you said is true, but that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong.

I know what I read.

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Good, then provide a citation to that FFL Newsletter where ATF says you must have a "brick and mortar" store.

It seems you rather enjoy insinuating that everyone is a liar. You also really seem to enjoy talking down to every one.

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No sir, what I cant stand is someone who invents facts. You made a claim that I disagreed with. I provided a link to the reference material you claim supports your statement.

Apparently you are incapable of carrying on a civil discussion and have to resort to insults.

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Please point out where I insulted you.
I didn't call you a liar or any other name.
Apparently your memory of ATF Newsletters is no better than what you read here on THR. If you feel that someone correcting an error is insulting, then get your facts straight.

Are you a Democrat? I thought this was the High Road.

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No, not that that has anything to do with this thread.
Yes, its THR...........you got that right

"That is an interesting way to relieve yourself of your responsibility as a consumer when more and more gun shops go out of business"


You cannot relieve yourself of something you do not have.

The only rational and ethical responsibility anyone has is to himself.



A consumers job is not to keep any business alive. A business keeps itself alive. It does so by making an offering to the consumer that the consumer decides to accept. Both offerer and acceptor enter into the transaction for their own benefit, and for no other reason. When one business fails, another leaner, more agile, more competative one WILL replace it. The market always responds. There's never a vacuum in willing suppliers as long as there are buyers available.


Willie

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Short of radical changes in legislation it seems a certainty that retail brick and mortar gun shops will go the way of bookstores, music and media stores, appliances of all sizes, travel agencies and a growing list of others. The economies of scale, the growing efficiency of stocking and delivery services and the near-infinite selection of items that are increasingly less than a day away make web shopping like a tidal wave washing through the retail world.
There doesn't seem to be very much in the retail firearm world that will cause it to be an exception. And as a CA Bay Area resident I welcome it. I don't have the experience of living in other parts of the US while being part of the firearm community but here at least we are under served. Very little selection, absurd pricing, rude and unknowing counter staff all make it a miserable experience. I have tried to shop local repeatedly but it's just a sad and out of date system.
Like book stores it will be a difficult transition and some will resist the change on both the retailer and consumer side but the very ubiquity of Walmart long before the acceleration of web shopping shows that Americans go for price over quality or service.
This is an inevitability.
B

I reckon when all the small businesses and US manufacturers go out of business because everybody buys Chinese crap from Walmart, it's always somebody else's fault. People complain all the time that the only concern of virtually any business is the bottom line but they don't hold themselves to such lofty standards.

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Huh? Who's talking about buying Chinese crap from Walmart?

The last 2 guns I bought were a Walther P38 and a Mauser K98, one from J&G Sales and one from Wideners. If I could have bought them straight from the importer I would have, but I don't believe they like to sell in 1s and 2s. I had both shipped directly to me from Wideners & J&G. I'm a little lost on why I should pay a LGS any markup whatsoever to simply act as an unnecessary and unwanted middle man in this transaction (ignoring the fact that J&G Sales is a local gun store in AZ).

Nobody suggested paying exorbitant prices at local shops.

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the same poster earlier in the thread said:

Think about it from the shop's perspective, you buy a $1000 firearm from them, they will typically make 15%, which is $150. You buy it from somewhere else and with nearly the same amount of effort and bookkeeping, they make $25.

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"Will online gun sales eventually replace local gun stores? "

All the local stores? No. Too many folks want to see and handle the specific gun they are purchasing. If more folks would do this the internet wouldn't be awash with questions about new guns with obvious problems.

I can't wait to see the yearly sales figures for Green Top and Bass Pro, now that Gander Mountain closed their Richmond store. The last 2 yearly figures I saw for Green Top showed a substantial increase in gun sales. They went from 18,000 and change to over 26,000.

John