Will online gun sales eventually replace local gun stores?

[atomd]

I have to agree with George here. Buying a new gun from Bud's and then expecting your local shop to handle the transfer with a smile is downright rude and disrespectful.

That's complete BS. I work in a business where people buy the same product I sell online and pay me to install it. Sure I make more money when I sell it but I don't consider it rude and disrespectful. When someone calls me and says "I can get this same thing for this amount, can you match it...and I can't...I tell them "Go ahead and buy it. That price is better than I can do. I'll install it for you but if you have any problems with the product....it's up to them to take care of it and not me. If you buy it from me instead I will warranty it and stand behind it 100%". I am just as friendly with them as I would be with anyone else.

I have had people tell me "Hey, you're 10% more but I am still going to buy it from you because I like you and I know you will take care of me if I have problems". Sometimes that's hundreds of dollars. This is 2013. People use the internet. There's lots of competition. Part of the business is doing the transfers. That comes with the territory. If a customer has a good experience with a transfer they are more willing to give you other business.

Not to mention now you have them in your shop....that's the time to sell them some ammo, maybe some mags, a case, etc etc. Maybe they will see something else they like there. Do you understand this is how black Friday sales work? Companies lose lots of margin to get people in the door. Getting someone in your door is worth the money alone. That's half the battle. Sure you'll get the guy that never buys anything but for every one of them there's someone that does....or someone that recommends you to someone else because of how well you did your job.

Now personally, if the business had the exact product I wanted in stock I would buy it from them and not online as long as they had a fair price and good customer service. If they didn't, I don't want to pay some outrageous fee because they want to punish people that cut their profit margin on products they never carry or can even order to begin with...I'll just take my business elsewhere. If you want to talk the talk you gotta walk the walk. If you can't beat the price, you have to make buying it from you more valuable in other ways. I've been in sales a long time. This isn't a new concept.

 

[atomd]

I should also add that at the end of this week I will be going to a business I've never been to (which is only 10 minutes from my home) because they were very friendly on the phone and are going to do a couple of transfers at a good price. I will also be looking for other items that go with those to buy while I'm there and judging by how they were on the phone and how prompt they were with their service, I will be recommending them to other people to.

Funny how that works isn't it?

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I stopped buying anything from Amazon because my account was hacked three times by someone who gave a delivery address in Washington state near Seattle. When I complained to Amazon their reply was "They did not get to your credit card information so you are secure." They accessed the rest of my account information and Amazon did not seem to be worried that an employee or some other hack had breached their system so that experience tells me that online systems are far less secure than my local gun store.

 

[George Dickel]

When I had my FFL the BATF sent out these news letters where they clarified questions FFL's had presented to the BATF. I distinctly remember reading a number of responses by the BATF that their interpretation of the laws regarding issuance of an FFL. I don't remember exact wording of their responses because it has been too many years ago but the message they were delivering was the FFL had to operate out of a typical brick and mortar store. Now if that is bunk, myth and nonsense so be it,but that was the impression the BATF wanted to people to believe. When you hear it from the horse's mouth which is the entity that has the power to cause you all kinds of grief, you don't do much arguing. I didn't have the money to hire a battery of attorneys to fight the federal government so I retired my license.

 

[atomd]

Yeah George...that might be what they wanted people to think. The majority of FFL holders in the USA are not brick and mortar gun shops. Not to mention all the gunsmiths and wannabe gunsmiths out there. A majority of them operate out of their home and have an FFL. If you want to see you can look up FFL holders online and see the locations. I'd bet most are someone's home. I think that's fantastic.

 

[CraigC]

That's complete BS.

Call it what you want. I'm sure you're making a hell of a lot more on labor than a gun shop does on a transfer. Gun shops are not in business to do transfers. Most gun shops are opened by enthusiasts. I can guarantee you that nobody gets their FFL and opens a shop to do transfers. They're in business to sell guns and ammo. Think about it from the shop's perspective, you buy a $1000 firearm from them, they will typically make 15%, which is $150. You buy it from somewhere else and with nearly the same amount of effort and bookkeeping, they make $25.

I find that universally, greedy consumers will go to no ends to justify their greed.

The majority of FFL holders in the USA are not brick and mortar gun shops.

I don't know where you get your information but it is wrong. During the Clinton administration, great effort was made to reduce the number of FFL's that did not have a shop. They were very successful. Today, it is nearly impossible for an individual to get an FFL without a storefront.

 

[TennJed]

I have to agree with George here. Buying a new gun from Bud's and then expecting your local shop to handle the transfer with a smile is downright rude and disrespectful. A shop can't stay open only doing transfers. Who wants to run that business anyway? I would hate to know I had to run a gun shop and depend on it to feed my family. Too many people bargain shopping online and looking for the lowest price no matter what. The problem in America is greed at every level, including the consumer level and this is a good example of that. If you bought a new gun online and came to me for the transfer, I'd double the fee.

The only guns I buy online are those I can't get new. If it's a new gun, I'll order it from the local shop. I would hate like hell to know that the only local firearms outlet was someone who only had an FFL to do transfers.

So it is greed if the customer bargain shops online, but not greed if the gun shop owner charges double for a transfer or does it with an attitude? I respect the heck out of you Craig, but sorry you are flat out wrong. They are both are greed.



The LGS owner needs business to feed his family, I get that. But the customer bargain shops to feed his family. Saved money is just as important as earned money. You think the LGS owner doesn't bargain shop when he buys things. You bet he does.



You know what happens when LGS owners act like it is rude to want them to do a transfer, a kitchen table ffl is there to take his place. That is what happened here. About 3 years ago I bought my first gun from buds. The LGS acted like a jerk. I looked around found a guy within 5 mins of my house that was happy to do it. $25 and I have bought lots of guns online and used him



Here is the kicker, he is a nice guy. After a couple of transactions he told me he could order most guns through him and to check before I buy from buds.



Now every new gun I get I call him first. Sometimes I buy direct from him, sometimes he does my transfer. But he is always involved (unless I find a used from a local store).



He won my business because of good service. I tell all my friends about him. I order assesories and reloading supplies from him. The local stores have regulated themselves to a place I only looked for used deals at.



With all due respect, if you want to call saving money greedy, then please realize it is no different that coping an attitude because you lost out on money. And just like greed is ruining America, so is bad customer service. The LGS lost my business. Buds didn't earn it. They lost it Gun store owners are just as greedy as shoppers. We are all doing what we can to provide for our families

 

[larryh1108]

I find that universally, greedy consumers will go to no ends to justify their greed.

Really?
Greedy customers?
Lol, that's a new one.
Why would we want to try to save money?
Greed, that must be it.
wow, some people just don't get it.

 

[George Dickel]

Yeah George...that might be what they wanted people to think. The majority of FFL holders in the USA are not brick and mortar gun shops. Not to mention all the gunsmiths and wannabe gunsmiths out there. A majority of them operate out of their home and have an FFL. If you want to see you can look up FFL holders online and see the locations. I'd bet most are someone's home. I think that's fantastic.

Yeah, I know that the majority of FFL's operating out of their homes and I agree that it is good. That was the point of the argument the ATF was using at that time, was there were too many FFL's for them to properly inspect and regulate and that was why they were going to require dealers to operate out of a store front. They were saying that the lack of compliance inspections created the opportunity for unscrupulous dealers to sell guns to people who could not legally own a firearm. It was for the children you know. Again it has been too many years and too many instances of government agencies overstepping their authority for me to remember exactly who stopped them from enacting this policy. I think that the House put a stop to it but I'm not sure however, they did back off this policy eventually.

 

[dogtown tom]

George Dickel When I had my FFL the BATF sent out these news letters where they clarified questions FFL's had presented to the BATF. I distinctly remember reading a number of responses by the BATF that their interpretation of the laws regarding issuance of an FFL. I don't remember exact wording of their responses because it has been too many years ago but the message they were delivering was the FFL had to operate out of a typical brick and mortar store. Now if that is bunk, myth and nonsense so be it,but that was the impression the BATF wanted to people to believe....

Sorry, but that's not even close to accurate.
ATF has every FFL Newsletter on their website:http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/index.html
Nothing in any of those newsletters says anything about a "brick & mortar store" nor does ATF give an "impression" that they want the licensee to have a brick and mortar storefront. They DO, however have multiple articles reiterating the requirements for holding a Federal Firearms License......none of which include a prohibition on kitchen table dealers, home businesses or requiring a commercial storefront.

 

[George Dickel]

The LGS where I do my business operated out of a very small shop for quite a while. Just last week they had the grand opening of their new shop which is larger, has a classroom for concealed carry permits and best of all, a 14 lane, 25 yard indoor pistol/rifle range. I'm not sure about the two reserved lanes for rifles, but I guess they would be used for function checks, sighting in a scope and ??? I shot on the range earlier this week and it is a class facility. Good ventilation, excellent lighting and sound proofing. There is a lounge area just outside the range area where you can relax waiting for your turn on the range if it is crowded. They charge $12 to shoot all day for pistol and I think $14 for rifle. I can't afford to shoot all day, ammo is too expensive, but I didn't feel rushed to shoot which was great. Most ranges in this area charge by the hour.

Another reason to support your LGS, I doubt any kitchen table FFL can provide you an indoor range.

 

[22-rimfire]

If it were legal, I'd get an FFL and stickly do transfers from my home. I would set my hours to fit my schedule and folks could use me if they wanted to. What a deal?

The thing is I don't believe I could get an FFL to be operated from my home. Period. I remember the Clinton time and I recall folks that had to move due to zoning or other issues. The whole objective was to eliminate the kitchen table gun dealers. Period.

 

[George Dickel]

Sorry, but that's not even close to accurate.
ATF has every FFL Newsletter on their website:http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/index.html
Nothing in any of those newsletters says anything about a "brick & mortar store" nor does ATF give an "impression" that they want the licensee to have a brick and mortar storefront. They DO, however have multiple articles reiterating the requirements for holding a Federal Firearms License......none of which include a prohibition on kitchen table dealers, home businesses or requiring a commercial storefront.

Oh, you have read every one of them since 1990 and ATF has every one of them posted since 1990? You sure feel free to call a person a liar on what they say, and you want me to believe you have read every news letter since 1990? I know what I read. It seems you rather enjoy insinuating that everyone is a liar. You also really seem to enjoy talking down to every one. Apparently you are incapable of carrying on a civil discussion and have to resort to insults. Are you a Democrat? I thought this was the High Road.

 

[CraigC]

wow, some people just don't get it.

Actually, most people don't get it. They buy everything from Walmart and then wonder why unemployment is sky high. They shop according to whose price is the lowest with absolutely no regard for the consequences. They wonder why there is no manufacturing in the US any more. They will buy all their guns from Bud's and Walmart and in 20yrs wonder why there are no local gun shops to do their transfers. All in the name of "saving money".

Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Support those who support you. Don't undercut your local shop just to save a few bucks. See it for what it really is, an investment.

 

[another pake]

Buying a new gun from Bud's and then expecting your local shop to handle the transfer....

Some of you guys must buy guns differently than I do and I buy regularly on line or over the phone from distant sellers. I don't believe that I've ever bought a firearm and then tried to find someone to do the transfer. In fact most sellers require that info at the time of sale. If you don't have an FFL, most sellers will help you find one who is willing to help. Don't you guys have those agreements in effect before you do the deal?

Anyway, to the original question. No, I don't think that many local gun stores will close as the result of losing sales to the net. In fact I know several small shops whose business has grown, because the owners have utilized the www themselves putting all of their inventory on line. One guy told me recently, "the internet has been a very good thing for me. My online customers don't know how big or how small I am. If I can get them what they want, I can be thought to be as big as Cabelas or Gander Mtn."

That guy will survive and thrive.

 

[AKElroy]

All business evolves. I like being able to shop for the older, weird stuff that I'm not likely to find on a local shelf. I think all of my purchases over the last 4-5 years have been online.

 

[TennJed]

Actually, most people don't get it. They buy everything from Walmart and then wonder why unemployment is sky high. They shop according to whose price is the lowest with absolutely no regard for the consequences. They wonder why there is no manufacturing in the US any more. They will buy all their guns from Bud's and Walmart and in 20yrs wonder why there are no local gun shops to do their transfers. All in the name of "saving money".

Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Support those who support you. Don't undercut your local shop just to save a few bucks. See it for what it really is, an investment.

I still won't support anyone that has an attitude when I walk in.



I made a thread a long time ago about local gun store hours. The main reason I bought my first gun online was mainly because local gun shops are not open when I am off. I could either take off work, wait till I had vacation or shop online or at a big box store.



I suggested that a gunstore might be suscessful if they worked non traditional hours. Maybe open from 1-9 one day. Maybe close on Thursday and open on Sunday.



This was met by gunstore owners/workers saying have families and shouldn't have to work late or Sunday. Well lots of people work crazy hours to support their family.



When a small business owners blames online and big box stores for their troubles, they need to consider that is not 100% about money. There is a reason why Kroger and Walgreens are busiest around 6pm. That is when most people are off work. The local butcher and pharmacy that closes at 5:30 can't have their cake and eat it too

 

[AKElroy]

Actually, most people don't get it. They buy everything from Walmart and then wonder why unemployment is sky high. They shop according to whose price is the lowest with absolutely no regard for the consequences. They wonder why there is no manufacturing in the US any more. They will buy all their guns from Bud's and Walmart and in 20yrs wonder why there are no local gun shops to do their transfers. All in the name of "saving money".

Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Support those who support you. Don't undercut your local shop just to save a few bucks. See it for what it really is, an investment.

An investment in overpriced gear, overpriced guns, and overpriced transfers? Walmart causes unemployment? I believe they are in fact the largest non-governmental employer on planet earth. I shop for what I need and what I want, and will look for the best price at the greatest convenience. Any parts of the retail world failing to adapt to that are going to b forced to leave the stage. That's how it works. Demand determines the supply, and the price for it. The market does not invest for zero return. It is ultimately healthy, and the only system that works. Not everyone wins, and for those that get left out it is painful. Ultimately though, it is the only sustainable system.

And guess where my local GS got those 555 white boxes of rimfire that they will gladly sell me for $80---yep, walmart.

 

[Teachu2]

It's still possible to have a kitchen-table FFL business, and it's pretty common in some areas. Not so much in big cities, but in Bakersfield, CA there are five or so brick-and-mortar LGSs and at least a dozen kitchen-table transfer dealers. I patronize both - but I refuse to pay a 30%+ premium and wait weeks or months longer to get a gun that I want. The kitchen-table guy I use the most is retired and is caregiver for his wife. He does thousands of transfers a year, which keeps him active and supplements his retirement.

I was a home-based FFL holder twice in the past, in the mid-80s and the mid-90s. My business hours were late evenings, as I had a full-time career. BATF liked to show up unannounced during hours that I was not open and demand to see my records. They would usually arrive about 9AM, just as I was leaving to go to my day job. Couple that with the increase in fees, and it became more hassle than it was worth. When I retire, I'll probably get another FFL and open noon 'til 7PM.

 

[happygeek]

So it is greed if the customer bargain shops online, but not greed if the gun shop owner charges double for a transfer or does it with an attitude? I respect the heck out of you Craig, but sorry you are flat out wrong. They are both are greed.

+100 TennJed

I guess it's greed that I haven't bought a new, non C&R gun in over 4 years? Or it's greed that I've been putting the extra money I make working out here in Fidelity and the TSP instead of buying a H&K wonder weapon at the LGS? Wait I got it, it's greed that I donated my spare cash to the Fisher House during the partial shutdown instead of buying something at an inflated price from a LGS.

 

[Willie Sutton]

The gun business has much in common with the scuba diving business, and having run one of those for 7 years and still having many friends in the industry, let me share a few things.

"In the old days" information was scarce, sources of supply were few, comparisons with others purchases was done in person in limited venues, and buyers basically either got what the local shop sold, or if they did want something special they had the local shop order it for them. But basically, you bought what the shop sold. That paradigm worked for 40 years.

Then came the internet.

Now people can research their "needs" far more easially, are far less likely to be willing to accept a substitute, compare notes with others on a global basis, and can place orders themselves for whatever they like. They are far more critical consumers. If they want "A" you're not going to sell them "B".

Some dive shops prefer to pretend that the new paradigm does not exist. They will not fill scuba cylinders bought mail order. They will not service regulators bought mail order. They are all failing and the owners are bitter.

Some other dive shops understand the new paradigm. Many have put in their own internet based options. Others are in buying coordination with other shops so as to fulfill walk in buyers expectations when items are not in stock. What the successful ones have in common is a big smile for anyone entering, a "sure, we will be delighted to adjust that" attitude, and make their money on repairs, service, access to their pool if they have one, cylinder fills from their compressor, and advice. They have shifted their profit centers from a hardware-only one to a service economy. These ones are thriving.

Gunshops need to do the same thing. Friendly attitude means a lot. A good selection of popular firearms at prices that are within 10% of an online purchase plus transfer fees. A good selection of the accessories that people need now: Rings, scopes, slings, cleaning kits, and all of that. These places are doing fine. The most important thing to their success is the way they treat the new customer in the first thirty seconds that customer ever enters the store. Eye contact, a smile, immediate acknolagement of the customer, a "Howdy, feel free to poke all you like and let me know if there's anythign we can help you with". That will make a successful business.

If you are a self-researcher and buyer of exotica, as I am, make a deal with your FFL before you start buying. I moved two years ago to a new state. Once settled I visited about 6 gunshops, buying small accessories, a box of ammo, an hour on the range, interviewing them. Asked about FFL transfers, got a variety of answers ranging from rude to polite, and after about two months had found one I liked. I made time to have a talk with the owner, explained that was an advanced collector and that it was going to be pretty unlikely that I would ever be buying his stocked guns, but wanted a LGS "Home" to accept my transfers, buy other things from, and etc. With a smile he said "No problem, would love to help, would like to shoot some of your stufff on the range when it comes in, and welcome to the family". That's a good businessman. And guess what? I've then gone on to buy several of his stock firearms anyhow.


So... it's a partnership. Find a guy who's not a horses ass, and then treat him wih respect. Build a relationship and you'll be in good shape. And just vote out of business with your feet the guys who don't understand that it's a new age and nothing is going to change it.


Willie

.

 

[atomd]

Craig, you're wrong about the ffl data. If I use an online FFL finder there are more homes near me than stores. A company that helps people get ffls did a study and found over 64% of all ffls are homes. They provide a map and data to support it. I know they are in the business but their data supports what I've seen myself. Heck, if I go on gunbroker and put my zip code in for someone to do a transfer, most of the ones that pop up are kitchen table dealers. It's funny that you think a customer wanting to save money is greedy. That's a first. Also some of the services we do are the same labor charge as a transfer is....and they take a whole lot longer to do too. A transfer is a low overhead, low labor service compared to a lot of services.

 

[HOOfan_1]

I have to agree with George here. Buying a new gun from Bud's and then expecting your local shop to handle the transfer with a smile is downright rude and disrespectful..

How exactly is turning away a person who is willing to pay at least some money going to keep a gun shop in business???

If you charge something they are willing to pay to do the transfer....they are giving you money. If you tell them to scram...you get no money and they won't come back.

Refusing to do business with them may make you feel better...but it sure as heck is not going to benefit your business.

Telling a person to "pound sand" is rude and disrespectful. There are plenty of brick and mortar gun shops who are not only more than happy to accept transfers, they have decided to embrace the phenomenon and are selling online themselves. In this environment why would anyone think POLITELY ASKING to do a transfer is rude and disrespectful?

Yeah, I think online sales might mean the death of some gun shops.....the gun shops that would tell paying customers to pound sand.

I think the gun shops who are willing to accept transfers and sell guns online themselves will likely thrive.

That is the way it seems to be working in my area. A lot of the newer gun shops opening up are trying to undercut the other shops in transfer fees. I've bought all my guns from local inventory, but when I ask about transfer fees, none have been unwilling to do it. Oddly enough, one of the shops with the highest transfer fees is the one who has put the most effort into selling guns online.

All but one of the gun shops in my area fall all over themselves to try and get you what you want too. Those shops are always crammed with people like sardines. The other one looks at you like you sprouted a second head if you ask them if they can order you something that they don't have in their inventory. That shop is usually empty, and since another shop owned by a couple of legends in this area just opened across from them, I expect they will be gone in the next 3 years.

 

[22-rimfire]

Telling a person to "pound sand" is rude and disrespectful.

It is. But you can set your prices to match your feelings of the market and how it impacts your overall business.

Most of the gunshops in my area charge in the $50 area for a transfer. I believe there is one that charges less. So, you price this part of the service in accordance with the competition. I am not going to drive 20 miles to get a transfer done when I have a gun shop within 1 mile of my home that charges a little more. I view it much like buying gasoline.... not worth driving all over town to save a dollar or in many cases $0.20. But some like to do such things.

 

[AKElroy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigC
I have to agree with George here. Buying a new gun from Bud's and then expecting your local shop to handle the transfer with a smile is downright rude and disrespectful..

So if I buy a car from discount dealer X, and get my oil changed at dealer Y, I am being downright rude and disrespectful? Who exactly is forcing any LGS to offer the service of transferring weapons?

I do all of my transfers through an FFL that established his business on discount transfers and CHL classes. Every time I pick up a new purchase, I wait in line. He has been successful enough to start stocking ammunition, accessories, and a limited inventory of guns. I've not made any large purchases from him, but I am not opposed to it if he manages to find something I want at a competitive price. He has accurately identified the market, and is providing supply in accordance with demand. He will gladly take a request for a specific weapon, and scour the internet to find it just to keep a customer happy, and to earn their transfer business. He has three computer terminals in his shop for folks to sit down, search for a gun, or to fill out their transfer forms.

Market forces will follow supply/demand in an absolute fashion. It is unstoppable. Like physics, it is undeniable, unwavering, and uncaring. One can argue about the effects of gravity while plunging to ones' abrupt stop, but I doubt gravity will be persuaded.