I guess I'm one of the hopeless. I "don't get it" I guess. I consider myself a wise consumer, one who knows what he wants and what something is capable of doing before I ever get around to making a purchase. Quite frankly, i don;'t need to pay for you "expert" advice, because you aren't going to tell me anything I likley didn't know already. You aren't the only one capable of knowledge or wisdom when it comes to firearms. I'm NOT an expert, but if I don't know about somehting, I'll do my research until I am comfortable. What happens more often than not, is once familiarizing myself with what something is and what it should cost, is that I price it locally. Sometimes thats the best deal, oftentimes it isn't. Sometimes, and this is hardly a rare occasion, the local price is simply outlandish. When i see guns marked well above MSRP, and a guy behind the counter more than willing to take advantage of those who don't know any better, it kinda sours me on the experience. Sure, there may be some room for "negotiation" but when the sticker price induces a heart attack or stroke, the odds of finidng a deal acceptable to both is slim. Maybe some people DO need to pay a premium because they don't know what they want or how to compare prices and features. However, when I buy a gun, I know what I want, and don't need to pay an inflated price for the privledge of lining your pocket. In that sense, yes a gun is a commodity to me....in the abscence of emtional connections brought about thorugh memories and experiences, a gun is just assorted pieces of wood, metal, and plastic, and I feel foolish fopr paying more than is necessary to obtain that wood, metal, and plastic. A few days, weeks, or years down the road, the gun may very well be more than a commodity to me, but that has absolutely zero to do with where I purchased it, or who from. A gun may be more than a commodity, but that transformation has zero to do with who I purchased the gun from, IMO
Courtesy/Guilt of buying from the local store vs. online
- Thread starter au01st
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I guess I'm one of the hopeless. I "don't get it" I guess. I consider myself a wise consumer, one who knows what he wants and what something is capable of doing before I ever get around to making a purchase. Quite frankly, i don;'t need to pay for you "expert" advice, because you aren't going to tell me anything I likley didn't know already. You aren't the only one capable of knowledge or wisdom when it comes to firearms. I'm NOT an expert, but if I don't know about somehting, I'll do my research until I am comfortable. What happens more often than not, is once familiarizing myself with what something is and what it should cost, is that I price it locally. Sometimes thats the best deal, oftentimes it isn't. Sometimes, and this is hardly a rare occasion, the local price is simply outlandish. When i see guns marked well above MSRP, and a guy behind the counter more than willing to take advantage of those who don't know any better, it kinda sours me on the experience. Sure, there may be some room for "negotiation" but when the sticker price induces a heart attack or stroke, the odds of finidng a deal acceptable to both is slim. Maybe some people DO need to pay a premium because they don't know what they want or how to compare prices and features. However, when I buy a gun, I know what I want, and don't need to pay an inflated price for the privledge of lining your pocket. In that sense, yes a gun is a commodity to me....in the abscence of emtional connections brought about thorugh memories and experiences, a gun is just assorted pieces of wood, metal, and plastic, and I feel foolish fopr paying more than is necessary to obtain that wood, metal, and plastic. A few days, weeks, or years down the road, the gun may very well be more than a commodity to me, but that has absolutely zero to do with where I purchased it, or who from. A gun may be more than a commodity, but that transformation has zero to do with who I purchased the gun from, IMO
The gun business is pretty much like every other. The days of the indpendent local seller is all but gone.
It's sad that whole generations will never experience the days of my youth. Well stocked gun shops with knowledgeable staff, huge stocks of parts, etc. I remember several times going in with a problem with a gun, and having the owner rustle through some boxes until he came up with the right part, and fix it for me on the spot....... no charge, even though I didn't buy it there.
Stuff is cheaper now...which is good. But the old days had their benefits too.
It's sad that whole generations will never experience the days of my youth. Well stocked gun shops with knowledgeable staff, huge stocks of parts, etc. I remember several times going in with a problem with a gun, and having the owner rustle through some boxes until he came up with the right part, and fix it for me on the spot....... no charge, even though I didn't buy it there.
Stuff is cheaper now...which is good. But the old days had their benefits too.
The whole advantage of Internet v local shop is that you can learn about your hobby yourself, so knowledgeable staff is replaced by virtual buddies who can exchange ten times more information than any stuff member has.
My local shop is nearly bankrupt, they even put a leaflet in all the display cabinets telling the customers that they are not showing rifles to anybody any more. That is because people come to shop to check feel and handling of the rifle and than they go on internet and by the rifle for $20 less.
My local shop is nearly bankrupt, they even put a leaflet in all the display cabinets telling the customers that they are not showing rifles to anybody any more. That is because people come to shop to check feel and handling of the rifle and than they go on internet and by the rifle for $20 less.
ROFLMAO
Yeah. Like the guy who came in yesterday wanting an AR-15 for "home defense." He "learned" that Daniel Defense, Colt and one other (I forget which) were "the best" so that's what he wanted. He was also interested in picking up a "nine-eleven" pistol in .45. Where did he get all these ideas? From the internet of course. I think there's a cartoon posted on Youtube poking fun at this whole idea.
Personally I blame WalMart and other big retailers for destroying the American consumer. A turkey can look at two prices and tell which one is lower. It takes some education and wisdom to judge the better value, qualities not apparent in retail today. The whole retail dynamic has been destroyed, from employees to consumers, with very little upside. Interestingly Germany has maintained the retail tradition and WalMart was an utter failure there.
oneounceload
member
True, but Walmart wanted to be open late, weekends, etc., and they were told "no". Most stores close about 5PM in Germany with Thursday being a day they stay open a little later. Makes it hard to shop after work.
In this country, we used to be like that, but then someone decided we wanted to be able to shop for groceries 24/7 as we buy a car battery and kid's underwear.
It isn't Walmart to blame - just ourselves with our "need" for instant gratification.
Walmart adds no value to the shopping experience. Many of the products they carry are not the equal in other stores, even though they may share the same brand name. But to folks who base any and all decisions strictly on the selling price, Walmart is God. When you consider they gross about 1 Billion per day in sales, they can dictate to their suppliers just about anything they want.
Don't get me wrong - they have created some of the most dynamic logistics in any business arena - where they fail is in customer service
Except for he was right that DD, Colt, and likely Bravo Company Mfg are some of the best AR-15 rifles you can buy (Noveske and Knight's Armament are even higher quality, but their attendant high prices make them unfeasible options for many). Also, I use an AR-15 for HD (vastly prefer it over a shotgun for a variety of reasons).
Or are you one of those gun shop experts that's going to try to tell me that DPMS or Olympic is "just as good as" or sell me a DPMS for $1K?
Go right ahead ROFLYAO at the truth if you want to, but that don't change the truth.
Vern Humphrey
Member
What we see here reminds me of the movie, You've Got Mail.
In this movie, the mean old Tom Hanks and his family own a large chain of bookstores. They're opeing another bookstore near a more traditional bookstore run by the spunky Meg Ryan. So Meg mobilizes her frieds to demonstrate and picket, and calls on friends in city government to do what they can.
I'm quite sure the makers of that film didn't intend for it to show what it does show; how two different mentalities compete in business.
The Tom Ryan character competes by catering to the customer -- giving him a large selection of good books at a reasonable price in a convival atmosphere.
The Meg Ryan character competes by saying, "Screw the customer!! I'll make it illegal for him to buy anywhere but my shop."
In this movie, the mean old Tom Hanks and his family own a large chain of bookstores. They're opeing another bookstore near a more traditional bookstore run by the spunky Meg Ryan. So Meg mobilizes her frieds to demonstrate and picket, and calls on friends in city government to do what they can.
I'm quite sure the makers of that film didn't intend for it to show what it does show; how two different mentalities compete in business.
The Tom Ryan character competes by catering to the customer -- giving him a large selection of good books at a reasonable price in a convival atmosphere.
The Meg Ryan character competes by saying, "Screw the customer!! I'll make it illegal for him to buy anywhere but my shop."
They aren't "the best" in any sense that is practical for what he wants to do. Rather than spending over $1000 for a gun he might shoot a few times, to be used for a purpose that probably won't work, he would be better off buying a DPMS, sights, a case of ammo and range time. And he will still save money.
But the issue is not that he knows enough to be humorous. That isn't his fault.
The issue is that he puts more credence in some computer programmer in California he's never met who owns a couple of AR's and shoots them once a month or so over someone who deals in them every day, and in the case of my partner has actively shot competitively and worked on them for over 40 years.
So you can tell me how Daniel Defense etc are "top tier" but the truth is they grossly over-priced for the skill level of almost everyone who buys one.
Reliability and durability has nothing to do with skill level. Also, BCMs and DD rifles cost under a thousand dollars.
I find that the "computer programmer in CA who shoots a couple of times a month" is more likely to recommend a substandard rifle and equipment than he is to recommend a top quality rifle.
LawScholar
Member
Are you honestly claiming that a DPMS rifle (no disrespect to DPMS owners, it is a fine midrange rifle) is the equal of a Daniel Defense rifle?
oneounceload
member
Let's bring it back on track, shall we? The TOPIC was about local stores vs. online, NOT about various AR makers.......otherwise, this thread will get locked
No, I am not. It is an inferior rifle, from the perspective of my customer. It will not allow him to buy accessories, ammunition and range time that will make the gun work for what he wants it for.
But that is the value of local shops, good ones anyway. Some guy gets a hare-brained idea about "the best" gun because some anonymous software engineer/carpenter/union iron worker had a couple and then buys it from an online retailer "saving" about $25 or so. In truth he spent about $2-300 more than he really needed to to get something that was actually going to work and wouldn't kill him when he goes to sell it.
LawScholar
Member
Oneounceload, agreed. Sorry for my role in running it off the rails.
Maybe that is the end of the debate, as far as my participation goes. When it comes down to it, I don't feel like paying the extra hundred bucks for "expertise". If that means I don't get it, so be it.
Maybe that is the end of the debate, as far as my participation goes. When it comes down to it, I don't feel like paying the extra hundred bucks for "expertise". If that means I don't get it, so be it.
BarkingSquirrel
Member
This was a while back but whatever:
This. This is exactly why I only do my fireams buying online. Its the attitude storefront FFLs give their customers. "Screw the customer, my way or the highway!". Its not your job to determine how or why your customers do something. Your job is to provide customer service.
Its exactly the reason people are switching to online purchases and table top FFLs. Its also the reason storefront FFLs are a dying breed. Storefront FFLs are the only businesses I've seen where treating your customers like crap/they're a waste of time is business as usual.
So go ahead - have an attitude about customers, what they buy, why they bought it and where they buy it from. Treating customers like that is why its starting not to be you anymore. Otherwise - ****, do your job and enjoy your 100% profit on a transfer that cost you nothing but a little time.
In short, I don't buy online to save money - I buy online because you <deleted>.
*Edit The "it takes an hour to do paperwork and I have to unwrap it! Also what if I miss the delivery?" excuse is pretty hilarious. My tabletop FFL is somehow able to recieve it, open it, log it, and have the 4473 ready for me to do my part of it in the 10 minutes it takes me to get there. He also never misses deliveries. Then again hes not lazy or incompetent, so who knows.
Bubba613 said:
This. This is exactly why I only do my fireams buying online. Its the attitude storefront FFLs give their customers. "Screw the customer, my way or the highway!". Its not your job to determine how or why your customers do something. Your job is to provide customer service.
Its exactly the reason people are switching to online purchases and table top FFLs. Its also the reason storefront FFLs are a dying breed. Storefront FFLs are the only businesses I've seen where treating your customers like crap/they're a waste of time is business as usual.
So go ahead - have an attitude about customers, what they buy, why they bought it and where they buy it from. Treating customers like that is why its starting not to be you anymore. Otherwise - ****, do your job and enjoy your 100% profit on a transfer that cost you nothing but a little time.
In short, I don't buy online to save money - I buy online because you <deleted>.
*Edit The "it takes an hour to do paperwork and I have to unwrap it! Also what if I miss the delivery?" excuse is pretty hilarious. My tabletop FFL is somehow able to recieve it, open it, log it, and have the 4473 ready for me to do my part of it in the 10 minutes it takes me to get there. He also never misses deliveries. Then again hes not lazy or incompetent, so who knows.
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Why pay 15 a box when you can pay 10? Not like the gunshop gives you a break if you buy everything there. Some times i get away with paying cash and no tax but ammo is strictly online.
I was going to buy from buds then i heard the latest stories, i'll go to my pawnshop and have him order my gun and have in less then 5 days. I know its NIB and from S&W
Must Be NICE TO HAVE MONEY!!!!!!!
I was going to buy from buds then i heard the latest stories, i'll go to my pawnshop and have him order my gun and have in less then 5 days. I know its NIB and from S&W
Must Be NICE TO HAVE MONEY!!!!!!!
LawScholar
Member
If you read his post, it was because of LGS attitude. Which, actually, was my original reason in my first post.
jerkface11
Member
Buying something from out of state online isn't cheating the state out of sales tax money. You didn't buy it in state so they don't get to collect.
2WheelsGood
Member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2010
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You act as though brick-n-mortar stores are just in it to rip you off and the "Amazons" of the world are out to cut you a good deal. I guarantee the big online stores are making more money than any mom-n-pop stores are. The fact is rent is a lot more on Main Street than it is in some windowless warehouse in the middle of Utah. And dealing in smaller volumes costs a lot more.
I'm not suggesting that buying online is wrong, but don't make it sound like trying to run a real retail store is some get-rich-quick scheme.
I think I missed the part where the state had a legitimate claim to the money in the first place...
The fact that a business is struggling to compete doesn't mean we should support them out of pity, it means they should change their business plan to something that will prosper.
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In My humble opinion:
The 'net' is ideal for finding items not available in a local gun shop.
For new items, I deal strictly local...in most cases... but now I might be forced to buy on line: Example: I can not find one gun store here that has in stock a Remington 7400, 7600 or a 750.
Store owners tell me they are JUNK. I've researched these model's and I do not find any substance/facts to support the claim they are junk!
What I have found out and is a complete, total disappointment is the Remingtons 'support' for these model is JUNK, HORRIBLE, SUCKS, PATHETIC....unreasonable...with a screw you, so what, attitude by Rem.
And that is a turn off to my buying one!
My Philosophy: willl not buy NEW on the net that which my local gun store has in stock.
-------------------------
"So you can cheat the state out of sales tax money? " YOU MUST BE FREAKING KIDDING...WOW....
In My humble opinion:
The 'net' is ideal for finding items not available in a local gun shop.
For new items, I deal strictly local...in most cases... but now I might be forced to buy on line: Example: I can not find one gun store here that has in stock a Remington 7400, 7600 or a 750.
Store owners tell me they are JUNK. I've researched these model's and I do not find any substance/facts to support the claim they are junk!
What I have found out and is a complete, total disappointment is the Remingtons 'support' for these model is JUNK, HORRIBLE, SUCKS, PATHETIC....unreasonable...with a screw you, so what, attitude by Rem.
And that is a turn off to my buying one!
My Philosophy: willl not buy NEW on the net that which my local gun store has in stock.
-------------------------
"So you can cheat the state out of sales tax money? " YOU MUST BE FREAKING KIDDING...WOW....
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22-rimfire
Member
The big stores have been running mom & pops out of business since the 60's when Kmart substantially appeared. Look at Lowe's and Home Depot.... both essentially charge retail for most things, same as mom & pops.... which is why I shop at Ace Hardware which is locally owned for a lot of stuff. It is all about convenience and inventory.
Walmart prices are going up and they aren't as "cheap" as they used to be because they have changed people's shopping habits and reduced the competition. The key is to alter people's shopping habits and bring them into their store... most buy everything in one place regardless of price. But Walmart propaganda tells the consumer that they are saving saving saving. It works. Walmart has something like 27 stores within 50 miles of me and they continue to build more. They know that ultimately it will be about proximity to the consumer.
So when all the local FFL dealers are run out of business, who is going to do the transfers for Buds? Do you actually think Bud's charges less because they like to make less? They would charge more if they could. They wouldn't get much business unless they charge less. It has to be substantially less for them to prosper by selling in volume. The convenience factor counts a lot.
Sales Tax? You are technically required to pay the sales tax on out of state purchases if you did not pay their sales tax. I suspect this is one area where things are going to change in the next few years if they can figure out a way to recoop the sales tax. All the state has to do is to change their laws and require that sales tax be collected. If it is not collected, they prosecute the business owner and fine them big time. Like I said, this change is coming... With guns, they would simply require the in-state dealer to charge sales tax on the selling price at the time of transfer or no transfer.... Or the dealer has to pay it after the fact out of their big $35 transfer fee.
I will almost always choose the local gun shop to buy from and yes, I pay the sales tax. I would buy the hard to find stuff or collector stuff through out of state dealers or as it is called now... on line.
Walmart prices are going up and they aren't as "cheap" as they used to be because they have changed people's shopping habits and reduced the competition. The key is to alter people's shopping habits and bring them into their store... most buy everything in one place regardless of price. But Walmart propaganda tells the consumer that they are saving saving saving. It works. Walmart has something like 27 stores within 50 miles of me and they continue to build more. They know that ultimately it will be about proximity to the consumer.
So when all the local FFL dealers are run out of business, who is going to do the transfers for Buds? Do you actually think Bud's charges less because they like to make less? They would charge more if they could. They wouldn't get much business unless they charge less. It has to be substantially less for them to prosper by selling in volume. The convenience factor counts a lot.
Sales Tax? You are technically required to pay the sales tax on out of state purchases if you did not pay their sales tax. I suspect this is one area where things are going to change in the next few years if they can figure out a way to recoop the sales tax. All the state has to do is to change their laws and require that sales tax be collected. If it is not collected, they prosecute the business owner and fine them big time. Like I said, this change is coming... With guns, they would simply require the in-state dealer to charge sales tax on the selling price at the time of transfer or no transfer.... Or the dealer has to pay it after the fact out of their big $35 transfer fee.
I will almost always choose the local gun shop to buy from and yes, I pay the sales tax. I would buy the hard to find stuff or collector stuff through out of state dealers or as it is called now... on line.
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sales tax....hmmmmmmmm
"Sales Tax? You are technically required to pay the sales tax on out of state purchases if you did not pay their sales tax."
---In most on line purchases I am not buying form a 'store' thus no sales tax.
---If I buy on line from a store that has a location in my state sales tax!
---If I buy from a store that does not have a location in my state no sales tax; in many cases the store willl charge my state tax but then I only deal w/them ONCE!
Regardless I buy new in state and more often than not the local gun shop let me dicker on a sale's price thus reducing the confiscation via tax of more of my 'scratch'....
Do you know we are the only civilization among all civilization's that voted to allow us to be taxed...thank you 16th Amendment...
"Sales Tax? You are technically required to pay the sales tax on out of state purchases if you did not pay their sales tax."
---In most on line purchases I am not buying form a 'store' thus no sales tax.
---If I buy on line from a store that has a location in my state sales tax!
---If I buy from a store that does not have a location in my state no sales tax; in many cases the store willl charge my state tax but then I only deal w/them ONCE!
Regardless I buy new in state and more often than not the local gun shop let me dicker on a sale's price thus reducing the confiscation via tax of more of my 'scratch'....
Do you know we are the only civilization among all civilization's that voted to allow us to be taxed...thank you 16th Amendment...
dirtyjim
Member
if the brick and mortar stores had what i was looking for i would be happy to drive 10 minutes away to buy my rifles but the fact is they do not and the vast majority of them are flat out ripping customers off with overpriced transfers.
i buy between 20-30 rifles a year, i might buy 1 from a brick & mortar store, 4 or 5 from pawnshops and the rest from online sources. i do not buy new rifles and do not care about the latest thing from remchester and thats what the brick & mortars sell.
i can count on one hand how many decent gunshops i've been in in the last 10 years.
dealing in small volumes does cost more and customer service should make up the difference. todays gunshops have forgotten that and its the main reason they go under.
when the choices are buy from a rude moron at a higher price or buy online at a much cheaper price its not a hard decision
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