10mm Questions & Confusion

[jwalker497]

Okay, so I was searching threads on the ole 40 vs 45 debate and in my searching I came across the loley 10mm, which I knew very little about. After researching this caliber, From what I can tell it's the best of both worlds in that it offers the velocity of the 40 and a large bullet. The numbers I saw suggest it's one beast of a round. Quite frankly, I am suprised that it's not as popular as it could be given the advanatges, but I understand recoil can be an issue.

But there are few things about this caliber I don't understand.

1. I have seen some articles on line that suggest the 10mm does not offer any additional "stopping power" over the 40cal becuase it tends to over penetrate. I don't get that. If heavy and slow is good, and light and fast is good, would'nt heavy and fast be the best??

2. Given that the 40 is a sawed off 10mm, wouldn't it be better to just buy a 10mm and buy some factory loads(no reloading here) that are downloaded to 40cal specs, if that's possible?? Does the 40cal offer any improvements over the 10 aside form price and being smaller.

3. I've read that the 10mm can shoot 40cal bullets, is this true? I was considering the Glock 20 for the 10mm gun for reference.

4. Glock makes two 10mms, a subcompact and full size, would the recoil be much harsher in the subcompact??

5. To make sure I understand, one of the benefits of the increased power of the 10mm in velocity, etc would illustrate itself in the real work in terms of range. The 10mm should be able to reach out farther than the 40, is that correct?? If this is true, it might make an ideal gun to carry while out in the woods to protect form wildlife, etc.

6. Recoil - how bad is it compared to a 40 or 45 in a realtively similiar sized gun. Unfortunatley, I have no nearby range that has one to rent.

7. Loads, based on my limited research, it seems that the 10mm is maybe the most versatile caliber for people who don't reload, you cant take it all the way down to approx 130 and up to almost 230, that's one hell of a range and I dont know for sure but I don't think the mainstay 9, 40, 45 have that wide of a spectrum, correct??? That's a great advantage.

8. lastly, aside form the glock 20 in 10mm, are there any other relaiable semi auto loaders out there that are worth considering??

9. Do they make the Glock 20 in their "SF" version??

10. As Always, Thanks, for all anwering all of my stupid questions!!!

 

[atblis]

Hm

10mm and 40 S&W fire the same bullets. Same caliber.

Glock 20 is made in the SF

 

[JohnKSa]

1. Yes, except for recoil. You can't get something for nothing.
2. It's more efficient in terms of size if you're going to be shooting .40S&W level loads. Why go for the bigger gun & more expensive ammo if you don't need it?
3. The bullet diameter is the same. You can NOT, however shoot .40S&W ammunition in a 10mm autopistol. It is not recommended. If you're talking about reloading then yes, you can use the actual bullets interchangeably for the most part.
4. All else being equal, the lighter the gun the more it recoils.
5. Yes and no. Most people find that their ability to shoot is what limits their range, not the pistol caliber they're using. The 10mm with full power loads would probably be considered a better choice for hunting and protection against wildlife because of the additional power and the ability to handle heavier bullets.
6. There's a bit of a paradox there. If you're shooting 10mm downloaded to 40S&W levels, the recoil will be less in a 10mm because it's typically a heavier gun. If you're shooting full power loads the 10mm will probably recoil more than a .40 pistol shooting .40S&W loads.
7. It's probably got the widest performance range in terms of available ammunition as far as autopistols go. On the other hand, 10mm ammo is usually harder to find and more expensive than other autopistol ammunition.
8. Yes.
9. I've not seen one for sale at this time but it is my understanding that they're out there.

 

[Kind of Blued]

There's a brand new G29SF as well, but they aren't out in considerable numbers yet.

Might be worth looking for if the G29 feels disgusting in your hand like it does in mine.

 

[tlen]

The 10mm, when loaded to 10mm specs, has energy that approached that of .41 magmun so aside from 2 legged threats it can be used for hunting and back county use as well. Most 10mm ammo is downloaded to 10mm FBI lite levels that are no more than .40S&W but you pay a premium price for 10mm just like for magnum cartridges. Dan Wesson has several 10mm models in the 1911 platform both in 5" and Commander size. They nice pieces but considerably are more expensive than the G20 and are single stack. If you get a G20 or G20SF you can easily shoot .40 S&W with an after market conversion barrel. There are articles about shooting .40S&W in a 10mm but I have not done so nor would I recommend it. Most of your other question will be answered here:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38
http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19
http://forums.1911forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=52

 

[NWdude83]

The 10mm has been making a slow comeback (still is) in popularity over the past few years. And there are always heavier recoil springs...

 

[skeeter_08]

The Colt Delta Elite 10mm is out of production; Kimber made a Stainless Target model in 10mm a few years back. Dan Wesson still makes the Razorback 10mm, EAA still lists the 10mm Witness Tanfoglio Single Action Steel Fullsize Pistol in their catalog, and Smith & Wesson still makes the 610 wheelgun which does shoot .40S&W and 10mm interchangeably, and I could be wrong here, but I thought the headspace of the .40S&W round was different from the headspace of the 10mm, meaning the 2 ammo calibers were not interchangeable in a 10mm or .40S&W Semi-Automatic, although a G22 barrel will drop into a G20 - skeeter_08

 

[JWJacobVT]

You can shoot 40S&W in a 10mm Revolver ie the S&W 610. There are also used S&W 1006 and 1066 pistols out there, if you are looking for a semi. Yes they are single stack 9 round mags, but the firearm is double/single action. I use my 610 for deer hunting out to 100 yards and my 1006 is my duty pistol/ CCW. I have a G29 but with full house loads she bites a bit. The 29 is for CCW only and is 11 rounds of 10mm in a small package.
Oh if you need more than 10 rounds of full house 10mm (1150fps with a 180 grain JHP), you should had brought a battle rifle.

 

[charliewood]

Great answers gentlemen. I love the 10mm. those quarter sized expanded silvertips and 600ft lbs of energy make me feel all warm and fuzzy . as a side, imho, the g-29 seems to not kick as hard as the g-20. at least with the heavier bullets.

 

[Snarlingiron]

I and a buddy of mine both have Glock 29s. Great gun. Don't be fooled by the "sub compact" moniker. If you lay the 29 on top of the 19 (I also own one of those), they are just about the same size, but the 29 is thicker.

My brother owns a 20. I notice very little difference between recoil of the 20 and the 29.

I carry the 29 for a hunting sidearm when I hunt. On my last deer hunt, I got lost and ended up hiking about 2 miles in the dark through the woods. When I walked into a big group of hogs that I could not see (could definitely hear and smell them all around me), the 10mm was a great comfort. I tossed my scoped .308 to the ground. Fat lot of good that would do in the dark. The 10mm with my Surefire G35 was just the ticket, and the 10mm with 180 grain hollow points will take down a hog if needed.

Recoil on the 10mm is, in my opinion significantly snappier than a .45acp.

As the range officer at my range put it, "Yeah, 10mm...they aren't for the timid."

 

[atblis]

Well

The Colt Delta Elite 10mm is out of production;

Was out of production. They've started making them again (and yes they do exist).

I think the SW 610 uses moonclips, which solves the headspacing issue.

 

[JWJacobVT]

Yes the 610 uses moonclips.
Snarlingiron I prefer my 1006 to my 29 as I am more accurate with the 1006 at distance.

 

[General Geoff]

The 610 headspaces off the case mouth, so moon clips actually are not necessary to fire 10mm in it. They are necessary when firing .40S&W, however, and they are also required if you want to use the ejector (otherwise you have to poke the rimless 10mm casings out of the chambers with a pencil or wooden dowel).

 

[SAILORMIKE]

According to NRA's 1st Freedom magazine... Colt Mfg. is bringing back
the two-tone Combat Elite and a limited run of Delta Elites in Stainless.

 

[sqlbullet]

1. Heavy and fast is awesome. Over penetration is the result of over-powering the bullet design. With correct bullet design selection, you can deliver all 600 ft-lbs to the target. However, most .400 bullets are intended for the 40 S&W ballistics. Care must be taken when selecting the load.

2. Federal Hydro-shock(sp?) 180's are the 'FBI' load moving about 1000 fps as I recall. There is your factory 40S&W in a 10mm.

3. Bullets yes. However, firing the 40S&W cartridge in a 10mm chamber is ill advised unless: You have a S&W 610/310 with moon clips or you have a Springfield Omega 10mm with dual extractors. Both of these instances provide enough grip to the rim to prevent the cartridge from falling into the chamber further when the firing pin hits it. Otherwise, it can get ugly. I have seen some pics of primers that were blown completely out and then embossed into the case head.

4. All other things being equal, a lighter weapon recoils more. Peoples perception of recoil is impacted by many factors, both physical and psychological.

5. I have heard notable gun writers comment that a 180 gr XTP loaded to full 10mm specs might make better bear repellant than a 240 gr 44 mag. This is due to the differences in sectional density allowing the 180 to penetrate better. I know I feel comfort with 15 shots of stout 10mm in the rockies. The 10mm also meets handgun hunting requirements in most states that allow such practice. Lots of white tail are taken with the 10mm based on my reading at 10mmtalk.com

6. Recoil in both my 10mm (steel framed EAA Witness guns) is very manageable. It is really over-blown. My wife prefers to shoot my 10mm Witness Elite Match over every other gun she has fired (1911 45 ACP, SP-101, S&W 629, 7.5" Blackhawk 357 mag, 7.5" Blackhawk 30 Carbine to name a few).

7. I am a fan, so I agree However, in the load data, I see the 45 ACP with a 105 grain range (155 gr - 260 gr) so I would give it a slight edge in projectile weight. Velocity, penetration, etc, the 10mm wins.

8. IMHO, the EAA Witness Elite Match is the best value in a 10mm handgun on the market. (Note that this is specifically the Elite Match, not any Witness gun.) There are better guns, but that are lots more money. The Glock 20 is great when you consider the Lone Wolf barrels you can get. For about $1,000.00 you can have a 10mm, 40S&W, 357 Sig and 9X25 gun. (G20 + three barrels from Lone Wolf).

9. (Lastly + 1) Yes.

10mm Guns in production:
STI just added a 10mm back to their lineup.
CZ-USA sells several under the Dan Wesson label.
Fusion Firearms makes some nice guns.
Wilson offers most of their 1911 in 10mm.
S&W 610 and 310.
Glock 20/29.
EAA Witness Standard, P-Carry, Elite Match, Elite Stock, Elite Limited, Hunter.
Colt Delta Elite.
Kimber (can't remember the model...something II).

Coming soon is the Fortis by VLTOR which is a Bren Ten re-mix

 

[NWdude83]

I believe Kimber still makes two 10mms. The Stainless Target II and the Eclipse Custom II.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Quite frankly, I am suprised that it's not as popular as it could be given the advanatges, but I understand recoil can be an issue.

Quite frankly, I too am surprised. 10mm is my favorite handgun caliber.

1) The stopping power of the 10mm might be the same as a 40 in a direct COM hit to the chest. But if you have to make it through a barrier, the 10mm wins hands down. Also, the 10mm can stop large animals, not just humans. It is more diverse.

2) Get the 10mm G20, and add a 40 conversion barrel. It drops in and you can use the same mags to shoot cheaper 40's.

3) Not true... see #2. You can do it, but your extractor will suffer without a conversion barrel.

4) Yes. I would not want a 10mm in sub-compact. The G20 however, is very pleasant to shoot.

5) True. The 10mm has a very flat trajectory, and is accurate out past 150 yards. Great woods gun with 200g FMJ-FP from DoubleTap.

6) Recoil is not bad at all. My 105 lb 5'2" wife can fire 50 rounds without a problem. More than that and she gets tired.

7) True. One of the most diverse pistol rounds on Earth.

8) I know there are others, but I personally believe that the G20 is the best gun in this caliber. IMO of course.

9) The SF is coming eventually, but I haven't seen it yet.

10) No Problem

 

[Grayrider]

All answered above and I agree whole heartedly that this is an under appreciated round. I would add that I feel the 10mm downloaded to 40 specs is softer shooting than an equivalent 40 even in guns of the same weight. I have two Witness Limiteds, one in 40 and one in 10. The light 10mm I tend to practice with is perhaps still hot for a 40, but feels softer than 40 loads with similar bullet weights and velocities. I suspect the 10mm running at lower pressure to achieve the same performance has something to do with it.

John

 

[jwalker497]

2 questions - where does the 357 Sig fit in all this and I still don't understand, just when I think the 10mm is about as bad as can be, I read this.

Guide to Stopping Power

"For example, the .40 S&W has higher one shot stop percentages in the real world than the 10mm Auto. Yet both use exactly the same caliber bullets, and the 10mm Lite load has exactly the same velocity as the .40 S&W. What gives?

The difference is a function of the terminal performance of the bullets involved. The FBI adopted the 10mm Lite load and became the main driving force behind 10mm load development. The FBI protocol calls for more penetration, and therefore less expansion, than is desirable to maximize stopping power in most shooting situations. They are more concerned about shooting through car doors, barricades, and so forth than putting criminals down with one shot in the typical frontal shooting situation that homeowners and civilians are most likely to face. The FBI essentially wanted ammunition designed for extended gun battles with perps hiding behind cover, and that is what they got. But as a result most 10mm ammo has less actual stopping power than the lighter, faster expanding bullets used in the best .40 S&W loads."

 

[Whitman31]

High giggle factor...

 

[sqlbullet]

357 sig is a 40 S&W necked down to .38 super bore (.356). Of course, the 40S&W is a 10mm shortened a bit.

You answer you second question in the information you post: Bullet design. Since the vast majority of bullets in .400 are destined for 40S&W power levels, they are optimized for terminal ballistics performance at those levels. At higher velocities, the bullets don't perform as well. So, for the best fictional one-shot stop, load your 10mm with 180 grain slugs at 1000 fps.

On the other hand, I was taught that in self-defense shooting, anything that needs shooting needs shooting twice (center mass). If it is still a threat, shoot it two more times + a head shot. If it is still a threat, shoot it two more times + head + groin + head.

If it is still a threat, run away and hope you find a rifle or shotgun before it catches you.

I love the 10mm. But, for the average shooter, I would have to concede the 40 S&W may be a better comprimise. They give up flexibility, but gain smaller grip diameter, faster shot recovery, and better shot placement.

If you are like me, and would carry a full-size weapon anyway, and shoot 100-200 rounds a week in practice, the benefits of the 40 S&W are nil. But most handgun owners don't shoot 100 rounds a year, let alone a week.

 

[KBintheSLC]

JWalker,

The 357 Sig is basically a hot 9mm (necked-down 40), the 10mm Auto is basically a hot 40 SW. The relation is about the same.

As for this...

"For example, the .40 S&W has higher one shot stop percentages in the real world than the 10mm Auto.

I can only assume that it is due to overloading a bullet that was designed for the 40 SW. If you send a JHP designed to go 1250 fps through a wet mass at 1450 fps, you could destroy the function of the bullet. It can fragment, shed the jacket, or expand too rapidly. However, expanding bullets designed for the 10mm, loaded to full 10mm specs (not that lite junk) will deliver better "stopping power" hands down. It is a matter of simple physics.

Anyway, for a human adversary, the 40 SW is plenty of power. I went with the 10mm though because it works on more than just humans.

 

[atblis]

357 sig is a 40 S&W necked down to .38 super bore (.356).

The 357 SIG uses 0.355" bullets (just like a 9mm).

 

[sqlbullet]

The 357 SIG uses 0.355" bullets (just like a 9mm).

I agree that .355 bullets can and are effectively used in this cartridge. The spec groove diameter is .356 according to Wikipedia. They in turn cite the CIP standards body. Functionally, there is little or no difference caused by .001 variance.

 

[jwalker497]

I guess I started to believe that the 45 was "big & Slow" and didn't have the range as compared the the 40/10mm. So I was trying to figure out if there was a need for a 40. I don't believe in knockdown power or gelatin but I do believe that energy is energy and the more the better. So I was just looking at the ballistics (http://www.handgunsmag.com/ballistics/) of the 9mm, 357sig, 40, 10mm, and 45acp. From what I can see, the 45 can do everything the 40 can do. The 45mm can hang with 10mm and the 10 only has a few loads that really separate it from the 45. Unfortunately, considering i have a 45 and a 9mm, I don't see how a 40 or 10m would fit in.