10mm vs. 45ACP

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This is not consistent with the account of Kuenzli charging Fish

It is. Even if Fish was assaulted with fists, he was still not allowed to use deadly force until he was overwhelmed and in reasonable fear of immediate death or grat bodily injury.

Sorry. Fish should have holstered his weapon and used other means to end this incident.
 
It appears you know very little about the law as it pertains to self defense. Being the standard is that of a reasonable person, the assailant's past or concealed weapons that were not brandished could not weigh into Fish's decision to use deadly force. I know plenty about the case, both men were pretty evenly matched.
Then if as you claim it's a bad shoot and deadly force wasn't legal why was the case overturned and no retrial?
Why would the burden of proof being on the prosecution force them to "allow" evidence* that would have been unfavorable to their case?
Well it would have forced them to prove that Kuenzli didn't charge up the hill. instead of the defense proving he did. The prosicution would not have necessarily had to allow the evidence but if they try dispute his testimony of Kuenzli charging up the hill it opens the defense to rebuttal.
 
At the risk of being out of touch I'm going to reply to the OP

While this may not have always been true recent advances in bullet technology have made the whole x vs y debate moot.

Today all of the major handgun calibers work very very well with good shot placement and not worth a flip without it.

The 10mm ophiles are going to blow their manhole covers over this. But In terms of SD, target shooting or even hunting white tail 10mm doesn't do a darn thing 45 wont for much less $$ aside from hold a couple more rounds in the same sized gun.

Both calibers will make bad guys wish they'd stayed in bed. Both will bounce cans around and both will put venison on the table.

Pick the one you can afford to shoot most because that's the caliber you'll get to be the most accurate with and call it a day.

posted via tapatalk using android.
 
Well it would have forced them to prove that Kuenzli didn't charge up the hill. instead of the defense proving he did. The prosicution would not have necessarily had to allow the evidence but if they try dispute his testimony of Kuenzli charging up the hill it opens the defense to rebuttal.

NOT LEGAL ADVICE

I still don't understand why the admissibility analysis would be any different. If the burden lies with the defendant, the defendant is trying to prove an attack by the victim. If the burden lies with the prosecution, the prosecution is trying to prove the lack of an attack. Either way, the same evidence would be relevant. The difference is which way the verdict goes if there is no evidence, and how the judge and jury are deal with conflicting evidence.
 
Sorry. Fish should have holstered his weapon and used other means to end this incident.
Great the my hindsight is better than yours game.
How do you know that Kuenzli wouldn't have taken the screwdriver (that he did have) out of his backpocket and stabbed Fish to death?
How do you know that the dogs wouldn't have attacked Fish durring a physical struggle?
How do you know Kuenzli wouldn't have taken Fish's gun and used it on him?
I'm sorry Kuenzli should have kept his distance. if you charge the guy with the gun yelling death threats the shooting is your fault.
 
Fish's case was overturned due to procedural error, not due to his innocence.

I don't know what Kuenzli would have done with the screwdriver. But Fish should have waited until Kuenzli actually produced the screwdriver. He would have been better off legally.
 
I still don't understand why the admissibility analysis would be any different.
hey I don't either I would have thought it should have been in the first trial.
But from the many lawyers I've seen talk about this there seems to be a concensus that the court, law makers and DA's behavier supports.
Fish's case was overturned due to procedural error, not due to his innocence.
I beg to differ. Fish was convicted due to procedural error, and since his conviction was overturned he is once again innocent as he should have always been.
 
Yeh reloading rates right up there with mowing my own lawn or trimming shrubbery which would take couple of days.
I agree with Willfully Armed. It is the handloader's round. I can load 180's nice and light, lighter than a .40 really, and on up to nuclear, near 1400fps. Can't do that with a .45. Folks like to compare the 10mm to the .45ACP, but you'd be a lot better off and closer to the truth to compare the 10mm to the .357 and .41 mags. It lies between them numerically, it just so happens that it functions in semi auto pistols --and that is all it has to do with .45.

Will a .45 make a FINE defensive weapon? One of the best. Will a 10mm? Yep. Can you do everything with a .45 you can do with a 10mm? Absolutely not. The 10mm is more flexible --since I shoot most of my rounds at the range and not at people, actually a statistical 100%, I go with the one that is more fun. It is also a better round if you like shooting at distance. Those 200gr. XTP's shoot straight for a long ways.

If you rank mowing the lawn (your own, for sure) along with reloading, then 10mm is NOT for you. Factory ammo is watered down and expensive, so if you get it for defense and don't plan on loading, the .45 has better numbers AND costs less. Especially with the heavy bullets.

But for my money, the ten can't be beat. I have three of them (four, but one sold) I have one .45 and it doesn't get shot much. I do plan on getting an Ed Brown though. Nothing wrong with .45, the ten is just more fun. Which is important to me, most important really, since they both function great for defense.

And to be frankly honest, the .45 is probably best in most cases, it makes a bigger hole and loses more energy in the target making it a safer bet. But it isn't as much fun.
 
Fish's case was overturned due to procedural error, not due to his innocence.

I don't know what Kuenzli would have done with the screwdriver. But Fish should have waited until Kuenzli actually produced the screwdriver. He would have been better off legally.
Yeah, a procedural error. Which allowed the jury to proceed with a guilty verdict based on the calibre of the weapon. Which is wrong. Besides, how can he defend his ACTIONS when the calibre is brought into question? The prosecutor was very slick in that he figured out how to put Mr. Fish in a legal catch 22. He didn't get a fair trial, it got overturned, then they (the state) fixed the problem to prevent it from happening again.

Harold Fish got convicted because he was denied justice and the prosecutor was allowed to wiggle through a loophole and the defense allowed it. He was denied a fair trial, pure and simple, and so Harold Fish's trial is a good example of when justice fails and the innocent get convicted. It isn't a good example of what happens during a justified shooting incident. It just so happens that the case is well known and it involves a ten and the guy was wrongly convicted for carrying it, so that is why you know all about it.

You probably don't know about all the justified shootings that were done with a 10mm that had no fanfare. They happen all the time, you just don't hear about it.
 
Fish got convicted due to his choice of caliber? Why don't you go to his website and actually read the appealate decision.
 
If you want to use legal terms, I suggest you use a legal dictionary:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Common+law
"common law n. the traditional unwritten law of England, based on custom and usage which developed over a thousand years before the founding of the United States. The best of the pre-Saxon compendiums of the Common Law was reportedly written by a woman, Queen Martia, wife of a Briton king of a small English kingdom. Together with a book on the "law of the monarchy" by a Duke of Cornwall, Queen Martia's work was translated into the emerging English language by King Alfred (849-899 A.D.). When William the Conqueror arrived in 1066, he combined the best of this Anglo-Saxon law with Norman law, which resulted in the English Common Law, much of which was by custom and precedent rather than by written code. By the 14th Century legal decisions and commentaries on the common law began providing precedents for the courts and lawyers to follow. It did not include the so-called law of equity (chancery) which came from the royal power to order or prohibit specific acts. The common law became the basic law of most states due to the Commentaries on the Laws of England, completed by Sir William Blackstone in 1769, which became every American lawyer's bible. Today almost all common law has been enacted into statutes with modern variations by all the states except Louisiana which is still influenced by the Napoleonic Code. In some states the principles of common law are so basic they are applied without reference to statute."

It's considered malpractice to fail to research the statutory law of the state the case is being tried in, and just apply common law.
It also makes a state specific case discussion futile, in less you know that states law. In this case, since the law changed during the trial time, it is a critical issue, and, the judge failed his duty.


Common law principals are what are taught in law school, with some case law sprinkled in, mainly Supreme Court cases, that alter the laws path.

During that experience, it is made crystal clear that states put penal law into statute, or codes, and they have as many variations as there are states, on the same issue.

Fish's trial made the state change their laws:
http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

The issues that Fish's attorney's considered basis for a new trial:
I. BURDEN OF PROOF improperly stated to the jury
II. EXCLUSION OF REFERENCE TO THE SCREWDRIVER
The judge's ruling on what evidence to allow, and not allow in this trial are all pretty shady.

Intresting statement from Points and Authorities:
"The importance of the screwdriver was not a fact lost on the state. If it was so insignificant, why did the state send the screwdriver to the state crime lab for forensic investigation and analysis? The Court's ruling took from the jury critical evidence which denied the jury any ability of determining what weight, if any, to give to the screwdriver. By allowing the State to deceive the jury into believing that decedent Kuenzli was unarmed, their verdict was predicated upon a misleading and deceptive state of facts.

This ruling denied to defendant Fish any ability to provide a "complete defense." It prevented him from showing the decedent's capability of inflicting serious physical injury. It created an environment where the jury falsely believed that Grant Kuenzli was unarmed, allowing the prosecutor to argue that one of the two combatants had a powerful 10 mm gun loaded with hollow point bullets while the other had nothing.(this is the view 918v is trying to sell. the facts are clearly different, and this position would not hold up to a new trial, with all evidence properly presented.) Under the Court’s rationale, the State would have been allowed to deceive the grand jury into believing that the decedent was unarmed while carrying a loaded .45 caliber pistol concealed in his back pocket based solely upon the fact that the concealed loaded gun could not be seen by Mr. Fish.
The day after the jury verdict, the jury foreman contacted undersigned counsel expressing shock that the decedent was armed with a screwdriver. He indicated that the jury was not aware of that fact and opined that such information may have had a significant impact on their deliberations. The error was critical and fundamental. In support of this point, the defendant incorporates by reference all prior memoranda filed with the Court on the issue of the screwdriver, together with arguments made by the defense at the time of the Court's ruling, are incorporated with this motion by reference. "

III. PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT The state has an duty to persue ALL evidence, and to present exculpatory evidence when they find it. The defense is not so obligated to the state. The reason for this is what exactly happened in this trial. The state has a home court advantage,;) if you would, because they have a full staff, and are not limited by any restrictions, and, they have the advantage of being LEO in their investigations. There is nothing so bad as a detective, or DA that fails
in his duty to the people of his state, which is to present cases with ALL the evidence they discover, and, to present exculpatory evidence to the defense.
IV. FAILURE TO ADMIT TESTIMONY OF DR. STEVEN PITT ON DECEDENT'S MENTAL HEALTH HISTORY AND FAILURE TO ADMIT PSYCHIATRIC MENTAL HEALTH RECORDS
"The Court committed fundamental error by excluding both the psychiatric records of Southwest Behavioral Health Center as evidence in the case, by precluding the defense from having access to the Banner Health Records following Grant Kuenzli's attempted suicide, and by precluding Dr. Steven Pitt from giving opinions based (in part) upon contents of the Southwest Behavior files, including opinions relating to:

1. Grant Kuenzli's post traumatic stress disorder,

2. Decedent's prior documented history of aggression and violence and how those earlier acts demonstrated to a reasonable medical probability that Harold Fish's life was in danger when Grant Kuenzli charged him on May 11, 2004.

3. The psychological impact that a traumatic event would have on any victim like Harold Fish when confronted with an unforeseen, terrifying series of events with no opportunity for reflection.

There is no factual dispute regarding the decedent's prior mental health history. Grant Kuenzli had been diagnosed as suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. The date before his death, he had consulted with a mental health advisor at Southwest Behavioral Health Center. The decedent had described his fears about living in the National Forest. This information was highly relevant to the jury's consideration of Mr. Kuenzli's mental stability and was directly related to the actual danger presented to Harold Fish by Grant Kuenzli.

In the preceding two years, the decedent had attempted suicide not once, but twice"

So, we have a mentally unhinged rapist and kidnapper here, and none of that was allowed in.
V. FAILURE TO ADMIT SPECIFIC ACTS EVIDENCE FROM THE TEN "ANTI-KUENZLI" CHARACTER WITNESSES

The record before this Court is irrefutable regarding the troubled violent history of Grant Kuenzli. Witness after witness, in pretrial motions, and under oath, provided this Court with "specific act" evidence about the character for violence of Grant Kuenzli. The decedent raped and kidnapped [Rape Victim], then threatened her son with death as well as her mother and sister while hold [Rape Victim] and her son hostage in their home. The decedent, without any warning, assaulted and strangled [strangulation victim] without provocation and without warning. [strangulation victim]'s offense was simply delivering self help materials to [Rape Victim]. The decedent was involved in numerous violent or aggressive encounters with former police officers Steve Corich, John Boylan, and Lynn Bray at Mesa Community College. They were so troubled by these actions that they contacted defense counsel after reading news accounts of Kuenzli's death. The decedent had two aggressive confrontations with Placido Garcia who, through affidavit, described his fears to the court. Stephanie Quincy was so terrified of the defendant because of bizarre and threatening behavior over the telephone that she would not meet with him face to face unless he had cleared court security. Judge Clayton Hamblin had a twenty minute encounter in his courtroom that so terrified him that he warned court staff to be beware of Kuenzli and to be cautious of him. The judge feared that the decedent might shoot him through a window connected to his courtroom. Ernie Encinas terminated the decedent from employment at the Gilbert Fire Marshall's office because of repeated violent outbursts with Mr. Encinas, with fellow employees, and with customers of the town. The fear of Kuenzli was so prevalent that the Fire Marshall changed all of their locks at all locations at the request of Kuenzli’s fellow employees because of fears that Mr. Kuenzli would return and inflict harm. A mere two weeks before his death, decedent charged Steve James with James observing the same spastic arm movements, the terrifying anger and verbiage, and the irrational behavior that was seen on May 11, 2004. These specific acts were critical to show, on occasion after occasion, that rational people could not reason with Grant Kuenzli, that he had character patterns of uncontrolled violent behavior, and that Kuenzli inflicted terror in the minds and hearts of each of these witnesses because of his unpredictable volatility and patterns of violence and aggression. "

VI. CHARACTER EVIDENCE OF HANK AND SHEEBA
It appears that the dog Hank was very dangerous, and that evidence was not entered. It had attacked a Gila County Sheriff, and generally terrified the owners neighbors.

VII. THE JURY CONSIDERED AND DISCUSSED INFORMATION AND EVIDENCE WHICH CONSTITUTED JURY MISCONDUCT
VIII. LESSER INCLUDED OFFENSE INSTRUCTION
IX. ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTION ERROR
X. THE VERDICT IS CONTRARY TO THE EVIDENCE

The only mention of caliber was by his own attorney, the DA, and one of the jury members said it bothered her.

So, Fish correctly preceived, under the pressure of violent dangerous dogs attacking, that the guy attacking him was very dangerous, with a suicidal
unstable mental state, and turns out in fact to be a rapist, and kidnapper, along with a violent history.

With a proper trial, and this evidence admitted, not to mention the publicity that would make people aware of all this, there is a better chance of snow in June in Arizona then another conviction.

I wouldn't be concerned about such stuff for your gun, since the chances you will have to use it are near non-existent.

I would be concerned with expensive ammunition, hard to hold on to brass,
a lack of weapons for the caliber, and, the expense of setting up such guns
so you can reuse your brass, if you reload.

That said, if you are a millionaire, none of those things are a factor. Buy the 10mm and be happy. I would rather have .45 Super, and do, which is nearly the same as the 10MM, but with a bigger bullet.
 
Prosser,

Maybe you should go to law school before continuing this conversation because you are making a fool of yourself. Stop citing internet news articles and read the appealate decision where the court clearly said there was no error with respect to the screwdriver evidence.

The superior court did not abuse its discretion. There
was no evidence that Defendant knew of the screwdriver before the
attack or that the Victim made any attempt to reach for the
screwdriver to attack or threaten the Defendant.

Read about it starting on page 3.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/Appeal memorandum.pdf
 
Frankly, the common law debate is sort of silly. I suspect someone just misused that term not intending to invoke its legal meaning. In any event, the definition of it doesn't really matter one way or the other as far as this case goes.

And just a few points... a violent history and prior hostile acts aren't really that relevant unless the defendant was aware of them. It doesn't really sound like he was from what little I know of the case. Those facts certainly help support the use of deadly force, but only in hindsight unless the defendant was aware of them at the time and the defendant's state of mind (relative to a reasonable person's) at the time he pulled the trigger is what's determinative.

Also, it sounds like he had a screwdriver on his person but wasn't brandishing it. If the defendant wasn't aware he had the screwdriver on him, that again cuts against justifying the use of self defense. Unless the defendant knew he had the screwdriver on his person, it's again largely irrelevant.

In any event, it seems like that case just highlights the dilemma everyone faces when choosing to use a weapon in self defense. Sure, it's easy to tell when self defense is justified in black and white cases, but odds are most situations are going to be shades of gray. That's just goes to show that it can really be a difficult decision and often times a risk you take when choosing to pull the trigger in defense.
 
What was this thread about?

10mm v 45 ACP and how the decision to use either will NOT affect your legal position should you find yourself in a gunfight.
 
But Fish did not claim he was attacked, just that the other guy threatened to kill him. Being that in AZ verbal threats alone do not justify deadly force ...

You may want to familiarize yourself with the facts of this case. You have again erred in incorrectly asserting that Kuenzli engaged in no threatening actions other than verbal threats.
 
918v: :neener:

Funny, I did go to law school, and graduated near the top of my class. Also worked in a DA's office for a year. You would know that, if you knew who Prosser and Keeton are. That's a BIG hint.

Wikipedia is NOT the greatest legal resource, as your reference proved.

If you want to use legal terms, then perhaps you shouldn't be so defensive when someone who has both worked in the profession, and taught the subject(s) tries to inform you of the proper use and meaning of the terms you are using, as they are used in the profession.

There are also standard operating procedures for the state, both the DA's and the state.

What I quoted was from the Points and Authorities presented by the defense. Those are the issues for appeal. The appellate courts' ruling
found enough fact and error to order a new trial.

When you write one of those motions, and I have, you go back through the record, find facts, and information to cite for the judges' to verify that in the record, you have a basis for your appeal.

While the judges may not agree on every point, they may look at the entire
bulk of errors, and decide that a new trial is in order.

I'm reading the decision right now. I was going to bring up that the standard for reversing a sitting judge on appeal is very difficult to achieve. It has to be a clear mistake of law, and as a general rule, if the issue is close, it goes to the judges' favor.

Also, on writing P&A's for appeal, you only need to win ONE issue. You throw the kitchen sink in, and hope you win on one. The Court of appeals addresses that with this quote:
"We need not determine whether such error was fundamental because we are reversing on other grounds and the admission of such specific act evidence despite the court’s ruling is unlikely to occur on remand."

The other thing I notice, but don't understand is this:
"NOTICE: THIS DECISION DOES NOT CREATE LEGAL PRECEDENT AND MAY NOT BE CITED EXCEPT AS AUTHORIZED BY APPLICABLE RULES.
See Ariz. R. Supreme Court 111(c); ARCAP 28(c);
Ariz. R. Crim. P. 31.24"

Here is the appellate standard for review of abuse of discretion:
"In this
context, an abuse of discretion occurs when the reasons given by
the court for its action are clearly untenable, legally incorrect,
amount to a denial of justice or reach an end or purpose not
justified by and clearly against reason and evidence. Chapple, 135
Ariz. at 297 n.18, 660 P.2d at 1224 n.18.:

OK. The ammunition evidence was admitted because the defense attorney failed to do his job:
"Defendant has waived this issue absent fundamental error
because he did not move to exclude this evidence by a motion in
limine or object at trial to this evidence."

From the discussion about Fish's credibility, related to expert testimony:
This reinforces the message of this law professor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
: NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE.

The following issue is something we should all consider:
"Defendant argues the superior court erred in admitting
redacted portions of his grand jury testimony regarding his use,
ownership, and collection of guns. Defendant’s argument is limited
to the superior court’s balancing of whether such evidence was more
prejudicial than probative under Ariz. R. of Evid. 403, relying on
Clifford, 640 F.2d at 153, that such evidence is not relevant to
the issues at trial. The State contends the superior court is in
the best position to weigh the relevance of any evidence against
any undue prejudice, and Defendant’s knowledge and ownership of
guns was relevant to prove he intentionally or knowingly killed the
Victim. It also argues such evidence was cumulative to other
evidence Defendant introduced on his firearms training and his
collection of guns and any error was harmless. To understand this
issue, we must discuss how the issue was presented below."

This guy reminds me of Bernard Getz. Fish's mouth is clearly his own worst enemy.
He could have kept the Grand Jury testimony out, or, never presented it.

Anyway, it appears after much searching, I found the other opinion.
Reversed on jury instructions, and failing to define a key legal term to the jury, vital to their evaluation of the case.

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.asp...0000.xml&docbase=CSLWAR3-2007-CURR&SizeDisp=7

I also found a reference to The Common Law of Arizona. It was used as part of the history lesson in the case, concerning evidence, and, that it no longer applied, since the issues were now covered by state statute.
It is a bit misleading, when you are glancing over the case.
 
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Quote:
What was this thread about?
10mm v 45 ACP and how the decision to use either will NOT affect your legal position should you find yourself in a gunfight.

Really?

10mm vs. 45ACP
I am considering getting a self defense pistol, full size in either 45ACP or 10mm. I have read lots of threads on .45 vs .40 vs 9mm but not as much on this subject. What are the advantages, disadvantages?

Thanks

Thanks R. W. for trying to get us back on track. At least twice that I saw.

SS
 
Prosser, don't bother getting into a law debate with 918v, he's a physics expert with a focus on ballistics or polybozology or something.

And the thread was about 10mm vs. .45ACP and which one is better for defense. Fish was brought up as a reason, a legal BS reason, for not carrying 10mm.

I already had my say on which one is "better" but that has little to do with defense really. For defense, they are both top shelf, just different.
 
Prosser,

Your earlier posts coulda had me fooled. I don't believe you.

Following your interpretation of self defense laws will get a person incarcerated real quick.

I suggest you review the AZ jury instructions I provided. They are based on AZ's latest case law and statutes. That is the best course of action.
 
Maybe I am late to the party, but I have two items to cite:

A co-worker sold himself on a 10mm.
I told him a .45 would do everything he said he wanted done at lower cost and better selection of guns.
He said the 10mm was the latest and greatest and POWERFUL.
He bought a S&W 1006.
A while later he said "Jim, why didn't you MAKE me buy a .45?"

Some old guy name of Jeff Cooper said that the 10mm did not show him a clear advantage over the .45 until the range exceeded 75 yards. He thought it would make a good carbine caliber where its greater power could be more accurately applied than with a pistol.
 
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