10mm vs 45acp
- Thread starter loxety
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longhorngunman
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In terms of shear power the .45acp can't hold a handle to what the 10mm is capable of. The 10 can be safely loaded to nearly twice the pressure of the .45acp. Of course there is more recoil on your end for the reward of all that power. For a CCW gun it's hard to beat the .45acp, perfectly capable of handling any issues with two-legged critters. Now four-legged is another matter.
I carry my 45 in the urban/suburban rainforest, 10mm in the rest of the PNW rainforest.
Considering the price of ammo now, the 45 will always be a better option when looking for cartridges. But me, I would personally buy a 10mm CCW if I were shopping for a new CCW. I just love the round and it doesn't have near the short barrel losses the 45 does.
For good stats on the high end of each, visit Doubletap's website. They always post energy and velocity levels out of real guns, not test barrels.
10mmtalk.com will quickly educate you on the 10mm. Excellent website, same as this one.
Considering the price of ammo now, the 45 will always be a better option when looking for cartridges. But me, I would personally buy a 10mm CCW if I were shopping for a new CCW. I just love the round and it doesn't have near the short barrel losses the 45 does.
For good stats on the high end of each, visit Doubletap's website. They always post energy and velocity levels out of real guns, not test barrels.
10mmtalk.com will quickly educate you on the 10mm. Excellent website, same as this one.
Harley Quinn
Member
I like them both for several reasons. Because of the availability of various barrels I would go with the Mdl 30 and pick up a 10mm barrel from one of the makers if you are going to be wanting it for a hunting back up pistol.
The 10mm takes some getting used to for folks who are not shooting all the time. I actually like the 400 Corbon barrel also in my Glock 21. The 45 is quite a bit cheaper to shoot and keep in practice with.
The 10mm takes some getting used to for folks who are not shooting all the time. I actually like the 400 Corbon barrel also in my Glock 21. The 45 is quite a bit cheaper to shoot and keep in practice with.
Richard
Member
loxety, my advice is buy the G30 and then purchase a 10mm barrel and magazines. The 45 is a soft shooting giant and the 10mm is an ass kicker! Lastly, beware as 10mms are as addictive as 45acps. Regards, Richard
moooose102
Member
i did a bunch of research prior to purchasing my 45, and for ccw, i personally believe the 45 is better. the 10mm has more power, and as such more stopping power, but the problem that i read about with the 10 is that it tends to blow right through a person. which is fine, as far as stopping is concerned. but if the bullet goes through and hits someone else, that is going to be trouble! yes, it will not have a lot of steam left after passing through a person, but it would be enough to send them to the hospital minimum if they were close by. and you do not need that kind of action. the 45 (at least with hp's) tends to stay inside the person that you are shooting at. that translates to all the power being transfered to that person. i think that is what we all want. i also think that is why the 45 is so popular.
Richard
Member
"For the most part, the ballistic difference between most factory 45 acp and 10 mm, is almost nothing."
TAB, I find the recoil significantly heaver when firing factory 10mm VS factory 45acp loads. Regards, Richard
TAB, I find the recoil significantly heaver when firing factory 10mm VS factory 45acp loads. Regards, Richard
I hear this everywhere. And yes, if I go to the local sporting goods store and buy a box of ammo, 10mm is about $40/1000 more. If I shop and buy online, I can get plinking ammo for about $15/1000 difference.
Premium ammo (once again, shop online) is about the same. I checked Double Tap and they aren't different enough to matter.
And if I reload, I end up cheaper with 10mm. Your mileage may differ, but it really comes down to which powder you pick. I use less Blue Dot in 10mm than the manuals indicate I would in 45 ACP. Lead is Lead, and 230gr costs more than 200gr. New starline brass is a wash ($1.75 /1000 more for 45).
So, don't let the "ammo cost" issue deter you.
harrygunner
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I like the versatility of the 10mm. Instead of switching guns, I switch ammo to meet different needs.
Beagle-zebub
Member
On the subject of relaoding, though, 10mm guns have a reputation for launching their brass into the stratosphere.
The Tourist
member
TAB said:
In +90% of the circumstances, I would have to agree.
I have reloaded the cartridge since it came out in the mid-1980's. In fact, to even get brass at that time you had to buy a 20-round box of Norma ammunition for 14 dollars a box. Yikes.
The problem was that even Dornaus and Dixon thought the round was way too hot. I worked with a customer service rep by the name of Harlene to find a suitable load. And to be frank, the best aspects are obtained by loading the cartridge down, not up.
Just about the only bullets of that era (other than ones pilfered from the 38-40) were Hensley & Gibbs cast. When I ordered my set of casting blocks they were simply a cast duplicate of the Norma bullet--a truncated cone in 200 grains. I still have it, use it and enjoy it.
But even if the present 10mm is slowed a bit--and is faster than a standard .45 ACP in 230 grains--the terminal effect of this 200 grain bullet is virtually identical. It might shoot a tad flatter, but not enough for the shooter to be concerned about if he knows his pistol or has properly regulated his sights.
And you can now get a lighter bullet and drive it faster, but that puts you in about the same place.
For my money, the best compromise in the 10mm Auto is the old 175 grain SilverTip. It was designed for hunting, and based on some articles from Dick Metcalf, I bought a box years ago. I'm not even sure if they are still around.
A few years later I bought a Colt Delta Elite and began to again find a load. Strangely, I wound up right were I first started from. However, that's not a really bad thing, and I don't think anyone really doubts the effect that a 10mm and a properly loaded .45 ACP can have.
Not exactly true.TAB said:
As noted above, the 10mm operates at almost twice the pressure and generates almost half again the foot-pounds of energy. The down loaded 10mm for the FBI (now known as the 40S&W) was about four percent more efficient than a .45 in the FBI tests (1989). A +P .45 (NOT talking about double tap) will produce about 500ft/lbs. A non +P will deliver around 400ft/lbs. A Hornady 180Gr. 10mm runs almost 700ft/lbs.
The Tourist
member
Pat-inCO said:
I agree with your findings. However, this is a one of those "paper" statistcis. I'm not sure a human aggressor could tell the difference after being shot. And in the realm of hunting where 1,000ft/lbs would be ideal for whitetail deer, both of the cartridges mentioned would also have to have a good bullet placement.
I initially thought that the 10mm woulda/coulda/shoulda be the winner of the race. But after numerous sessions target shooting, I noticed that beer cans flew about as high when hit, and fresh divots in soil were about the same size.
Now granted, that's a "workingman's ballistic pendulum," but the transfer of energy is really what we're looking for, not numbers from a computer tape.
We all know guys who will debate at the top of their lungs when your reload goes 1,200 FPS and theirs goes 1,235.
But there's also a reason Boots Obermeyer used what's known as "R" style rifling in the initial hot loaded 10mm Auto. Like many rounds that are hotter than the hinges of Hades, the bullet flies best when "eased" into the barrel with a very long leade.
In fact, if you loaded my Colt Elite just a teensie bit over the line, you got stringing so bad that accuracy was non-existent. One bullet would hit the beer can, the next would fly 18 inches over the top.
To make the heavy bullet functional, you load it down to where it's a duplicate of a .45 ACP, or at least a .451 Detonics.
Harley Quinn
Member
I believe most are aware that these pistols that are being mentioned are sub-compacts
So both are going to be a handful when fired, otherwise they are not very big
The ammo and recoil are all relative for sure. If you are going to plink with light loads that is fine. Not much has been mentioned about the ability to shoot 100 defense type rounds either of these pistols at one time. I know folks who would not even shoot one full mag of either
Good luck in your quest, now we will go forward and argue about reloading
So both are going to be a handful when fired, otherwise they are not very big
The ammo and recoil are all relative for sure. If you are going to plink with light loads that is fine. Not much has been mentioned about the ability to shoot 100 defense type rounds either of these pistols at one time. I know folks who would not even shoot one full mag of either Good luck in your quest, now we will go forward and argue about reloading
The Tourist
member
Harley Quinn said:
In a very real sense, the second shipment of Norma ammunition was a "reload." In no way, shape or form did it even approach the initial figures. In fact, this second set had the reputation of some bad Q/C problems. It did conform more to the D&D parameters for actual use in a handgun.
My point is very simple. If the 10mm would never have been invented, we could get along just fine with some responsibly produced +P .45 ACP rounds, or the .451 Detonics. A Rowland would have been a distinct bonus.
But you don't have to crush the sound barrier to have a good time. I enjoy the 10mm, and would jump at the chance to see this new Colt. But it ain't RoboCop's gun, no matter how much time an alchemist worries over it.
Richard
Member
"believe most are aware that these pistols that are being mentioned are sub-compacts
So both are going to be a handful when fired,..
Harley Quinn, my G30 handles recoil very well. I enjoy shooting my G30 and I have yet to develop a flinch from shooting it. Regards, Richard
So both are going to be a handful when fired,..
Harley Quinn, my G30 handles recoil very well. I enjoy shooting my G30 and I have yet to develop a flinch from shooting it. Regards, Richard
Northalius
Member
Go to DoubleTap website and check their 10mm (more rightly called: .40 Magnum, imo) vs. .45 ACP. Keep in mind, their .45 ACPs are tested with a 5" barrel, whereas their 10mm is tested with a 4.6" barrel (from Glock 20)... so even with their .45 ACP ballistics, the .45 has a little advantage... yet still doesn't come near the 10mm in velocity and ft. lbs. energy.
For hunting / woods defense, the DoubleTap 10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth is awesome, at 1300 fps, with 750 ft. lbs.
If you're that worried about "overpenetration" (I'm not, since after the bullet expands, it's going no where)... then go for the DoubleTap 135 gr. JHP... it flies in at 1600 fps out of a Glock 20, with 767 ft. lbs. It literally fragged apart in gel after traveling 11".
Then the DoubleTap 165 gr. 10mm JHP rounds flying in at 1400 fps, expanded to over 1 inch, with roughly 720 ft. lbs.
Go check them out: www.doubletapammo.com
Go check out www.georgia-arms.com for cheaper 10mm practice rounds. Last I checked, they were $147 per 500 round "canned heat" box. That's 14.70 per 50 rounds... not as bad as many try to make 10mm seem.
Make sure to put at least 150 rounds of your CARRY ammo through ANY gun that you buy, before you carry it! Just to make sure that ammo cycles reliably. Hey, no gun, nor any ammo, is perfect... and this is carried to save your life one day, so do the tests!
For hunting / woods defense, the DoubleTap 10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth is awesome, at 1300 fps, with 750 ft. lbs.
If you're that worried about "overpenetration" (I'm not, since after the bullet expands, it's going no where)... then go for the DoubleTap 135 gr. JHP... it flies in at 1600 fps out of a Glock 20, with 767 ft. lbs. It literally fragged apart in gel after traveling 11".
Then the DoubleTap 165 gr. 10mm JHP rounds flying in at 1400 fps, expanded to over 1 inch, with roughly 720 ft. lbs.
Go check them out: www.doubletapammo.com
Go check out www.georgia-arms.com for cheaper 10mm practice rounds. Last I checked, they were $147 per 500 round "canned heat" box. That's 14.70 per 50 rounds... not as bad as many try to make 10mm seem.
Make sure to put at least 150 rounds of your CARRY ammo through ANY gun that you buy, before you carry it! Just to make sure that ammo cycles reliably. Hey, no gun, nor any ammo, is perfect... and this is carried to save your life one day, so do the tests!
Replies...
1) ...the problem that i read about with the 10 is that it tends to blow right through a person.
2) For the most part, the balistic diffrence between most factory 45 acp and 10 mm, is almost nothing.
3) On the subject of relaoding, though, 10mm guns have a reputation for launching their brass into the stratosphere.
4) I like the versatility of the 10mm. Instead of switching guns, I switch ammo to meet different needs.
5) The 45 is a soft shooting giant and the 10mm is an ass kicker!
6) Shooting the 10MM is literally like an auto .357 magnum.
*****
1) This can be addressed with bullet selection. A fangible round would avoid this, while a hard-cast round (except on some game) would through several houses, till it something sufficiently solid.
2) This is a subjective opinion. See stats below...
3) Certainly true with the hot loads!
4) Yes! 10 mm is an incredibly versatile cartridge!
5) For the most part true! I own a G21 .45/10 mm, and I agree!
6) The numbers (see below) agree with you!
*****
Double Tap has a reputation for being high performance ammo.
The following stats do not take bullet performance, sectional density, etc.,
into account, but are a good barometer for quick comparison. I've tried most of these in .45 ACP and 10 mm. The .45 ACP 165 grain XTP was a very ten-like cartridge, but is no longer available. Here are the stats:
*** Double Tap Ammo Comparison ***
A) 10 mm, 1600 fps, 767 ft/lbs, 135 gr Nosler
B) .357 Magnum, 1600 fps, 710 ft/lbs, 125 gr Gold Dot
C) .45 ACP, 1325 fps, 652 ft/lbs, XTP DISCONTINUED
A) 10mm, 1475 fps, 750 ft/lbs, 155 gr Gold Dot
B) 357 Magnum, 1400 fps, 688 ft/lbs, 158 gr Gold Dot
C) .45 ACP, 1225 fps, 616 ft/lbs, 185 gr Gold Dot
A) 10mm, 1300 fps, 750 ft/lbs, 200 gr Hardcast
B) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft/lbs, 200 gr Hardcast
C) .45 ACP, 1125 fps, 562 ft/lbs, 200 gr Gold Dot
A) 10 mm, 1120 fps, 641 ft/lbs, 230 gr Hardcast
B) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft/lbs, 200 gr Hardcast
C) .45 ACP, 1010 fps, 521 ft/lbs, 230 gr Flat Point
***********************
--Ray
1) ...the problem that i read about with the 10 is that it tends to blow right through a person.
2) For the most part, the balistic diffrence between most factory 45 acp and 10 mm, is almost nothing.
3) On the subject of relaoding, though, 10mm guns have a reputation for launching their brass into the stratosphere.
4) I like the versatility of the 10mm. Instead of switching guns, I switch ammo to meet different needs.
5) The 45 is a soft shooting giant and the 10mm is an ass kicker!
6) Shooting the 10MM is literally like an auto .357 magnum.
*****
1) This can be addressed with bullet selection. A fangible round would avoid this, while a hard-cast round (except on some game) would through several houses, till it something sufficiently solid.
2) This is a subjective opinion. See stats below...
3) Certainly true with the hot loads!
4) Yes! 10 mm is an incredibly versatile cartridge!
5) For the most part true! I own a G21 .45/10 mm, and I agree!
6) The numbers (see below) agree with you!
*****
Double Tap has a reputation for being high performance ammo.
The following stats do not take bullet performance, sectional density, etc.,
into account, but are a good barometer for quick comparison. I've tried most of these in .45 ACP and 10 mm. The .45 ACP 165 grain XTP was a very ten-like cartridge, but is no longer available. Here are the stats:
*** Double Tap Ammo Comparison ***
A) 10 mm, 1600 fps, 767 ft/lbs, 135 gr Nosler
B) .357 Magnum, 1600 fps, 710 ft/lbs, 125 gr Gold Dot
C) .45 ACP, 1325 fps, 652 ft/lbs, XTP DISCONTINUED
A) 10mm, 1475 fps, 750 ft/lbs, 155 gr Gold Dot
B) 357 Magnum, 1400 fps, 688 ft/lbs, 158 gr Gold Dot
C) .45 ACP, 1225 fps, 616 ft/lbs, 185 gr Gold Dot
A) 10mm, 1300 fps, 750 ft/lbs, 200 gr Hardcast
B) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft/lbs, 200 gr Hardcast
C) .45 ACP, 1125 fps, 562 ft/lbs, 200 gr Gold Dot
A) 10 mm, 1120 fps, 641 ft/lbs, 230 gr Hardcast
B) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft/lbs, 200 gr Hardcast
C) .45 ACP, 1010 fps, 521 ft/lbs, 230 gr Flat Point
***********************
--Ray
swatdawgmark
Member
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2008
- Messages
- 4
I have a Glock 20C. I love it. We call it a 10MM Man gun. Sometimes full power ammo is hard to find. Factory JHP are very hard to find. winchester 175 gr Silvertips are the best I have seen (have not seen in a while). If you can find a good supplier of full power ammo (go with the recommendation in other replies) go with the 10mm. I also have 2 Kimber 1911 and a Glock 21. Just starting reloading for 45 ACP. Will eventually reload 10MM.
Harley Quinn
Member
Here is some information about both the 10 and 45 made by Glock, Good stuff.
http://www.remtek.com/arms/glock/model/45/30/index.htm
Worth reading
http://www.remtek.com/arms/glock/model/45/30/index.htm
Worth reading
DawgFvr
Member
I love my compact, short barreled .45 ACP...carries like a charm. Um, do they make any compact, short barreled 10mm weapons or are they all those extremely large/heavy "range" guns that people take and attempt to impress people with?
The Tourist
member
In the final analysis, let's stay "apples to apples."
If you took a .45 ACP FMJ from the WWII era and made it compete against a "first pressing" Norma round circa 1985 it would be akin to making a plow mule race a Ferrari.
To the reverse, a reloader making 10mm plinking loads for the weekend will be outdone by a modern +P 185 grain .45 ACP combat load.
Put them head-to-head I doubt if I could tell them apart by sound, feel of recoil and damage to the target.
If there was any concept that slowed the growth of the 10mm Auto it was this hard to swallow fact mentioned above. Simply, a .45 ACP reload could do pretty much the same thing, and the user might not want to buy a new gun that was already having teething problems.
(My Bren Ten was number 313. I got personal help most didn't, and due to some breakage, my model was disassembled and hand-built.)
Besides the 10mm being too hot, too big, too powerful, etc. to be accepted by law enforcement, it never really made a mark in a area where it could have been a celebrity--that being hunting. For a very long time guys who loved automatic pistols did not have a tool that ranked up there with magnum revolvers. Col. Jeff Cooper even published his intent to go bear hunting, although I never heard of the actual hunt.
As stated, Dick Metcalf did go hunting with great success.
As I am learning about firearms--even at my age--is that a firearm must have "street creds" before it catches on. And when the 10mm failed the FBI the trend really slowed. In fact, I felt that the idea of a .401 firearm had so tainted the water that I worried if the SW .40 would be a success. After all, it came out during the hubbub of the "wonder nines."
I'm a fan of the 10mm Auto. But I'm also a fan of the .243 Win, and the .44 SPL and the 22-250. In every category, there is a caliber/cartridgethat can beat me on paper and in the field. And I usually load "down."
So what? Does a cartridge have to be a rocket-ship to be successful? Does a cartridge have to batter and break guns, scare Inspector Callahan and trash a dozen chronographs before we feel it has any value? The current 10mm is a shadow of the orignal Norma load. It attains speed the old fashion way, with a lighter bullet. At speed, it perforates. There's scant few pistols that can handle the blue pills. Is that really what we want?
If you took a .45 ACP FMJ from the WWII era and made it compete against a "first pressing" Norma round circa 1985 it would be akin to making a plow mule race a Ferrari.
To the reverse, a reloader making 10mm plinking loads for the weekend will be outdone by a modern +P 185 grain .45 ACP combat load.
Put them head-to-head I doubt if I could tell them apart by sound, feel of recoil and damage to the target.
If there was any concept that slowed the growth of the 10mm Auto it was this hard to swallow fact mentioned above. Simply, a .45 ACP reload could do pretty much the same thing, and the user might not want to buy a new gun that was already having teething problems.
(My Bren Ten was number 313. I got personal help most didn't, and due to some breakage, my model was disassembled and hand-built.)
Besides the 10mm being too hot, too big, too powerful, etc. to be accepted by law enforcement, it never really made a mark in a area where it could have been a celebrity--that being hunting. For a very long time guys who loved automatic pistols did not have a tool that ranked up there with magnum revolvers. Col. Jeff Cooper even published his intent to go bear hunting, although I never heard of the actual hunt.
As stated, Dick Metcalf did go hunting with great success.
As I am learning about firearms--even at my age--is that a firearm must have "street creds" before it catches on. And when the 10mm failed the FBI the trend really slowed. In fact, I felt that the idea of a .401 firearm had so tainted the water that I worried if the SW .40 would be a success. After all, it came out during the hubbub of the "wonder nines."
I'm a fan of the 10mm Auto. But I'm also a fan of the .243 Win, and the .44 SPL and the 22-250. In every category, there is a caliber/cartridgethat can beat me on paper and in the field. And I usually load "down."
So what? Does a cartridge have to be a rocket-ship to be successful? Does a cartridge have to batter and break guns, scare Inspector Callahan and trash a dozen chronographs before we feel it has any value? The current 10mm is a shadow of the orignal Norma load. It attains speed the old fashion way, with a lighter bullet. At speed, it perforates. There's scant few pistols that can handle the blue pills. Is that really what we want?
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