10mm vs. 45ACP
- Thread starter Hosh
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918v:
That's your problem.
Strykervet:
Thanks. That explains a lot. I wanted to debunk the reference to 10MM being an issue. However, what I found was a loud mouthed client that talked himself into a 10 year sentence for nothing, except being stupid. Fish put at issue his credibility, his gun selection, his history. Could have been me. I'm retired from teaching, about his age, pretty fit, and like to carry
'powerful' handguns.
You hire an attorney, in your state, and he knows his area, the judges, and the law, though Fish's sucked at appellate law, failing to raise key objections that would have preserved what rights Fish wasn't giving away.
It's pretty amazing that people think they have some divine right to carry a gun, shoot someone, and that the Lord is going to make it OK.
If I had been the DA, I would have been REALLY annoyed at the complete disregard for the law this guy had, and how his stupidity caused another persons' death.
A knowledge of the law is helpful.
I can also see a wonderful lawsuit, for 10 years of lost income, for the firearms instructors that said shoot to kill. Fish reverted to his training, and, that got him convicted.
I don't care what any firearms instructor says. If you have the time, or ability, and an unarmed, to your eyes, view, there are other alternatives to center of mass shots.
Shoot low, take the guys legs, out, kill the dogs, then call 911.
Fish reverted to training. The training was designed for SD against someone with a GUN, not a screw driver and dogs.
That's your problem.
Strykervet:
Thanks. That explains a lot. I wanted to debunk the reference to 10MM being an issue. However, what I found was a loud mouthed client that talked himself into a 10 year sentence for nothing, except being stupid. Fish put at issue his credibility, his gun selection, his history. Could have been me. I'm retired from teaching, about his age, pretty fit, and like to carry
'powerful' handguns.
You hire an attorney, in your state, and he knows his area, the judges, and the law, though Fish's sucked at appellate law, failing to raise key objections that would have preserved what rights Fish wasn't giving away.
It's pretty amazing that people think they have some divine right to carry a gun, shoot someone, and that the Lord is going to make it OK.
If I had been the DA, I would have been REALLY annoyed at the complete disregard for the law this guy had, and how his stupidity caused another persons' death.
A knowledge of the law is helpful.
I can also see a wonderful lawsuit, for 10 years of lost income, for the firearms instructors that said shoot to kill. Fish reverted to his training, and, that got him convicted.
I don't care what any firearms instructor says. If you have the time, or ability, and an unarmed, to your eyes, view, there are other alternatives to center of mass shots.
Shoot low, take the guys legs, out, kill the dogs, then call 911.
Fish reverted to training. The training was designed for SD against someone with a GUN, not a screw driver and dogs.
easyg
Member
Before reading this thread I was neutral.
After reading this thread I really find it difficult to support the 10mm.
After reading this thread I really find it difficult to support the 10mm.
10MM is to .45 ACP what .45 Super is. A near doubling of energy. BIG difference. Only caliber difference that really represents a get out of the box of SD calibers.
Financially, yes, .45 ACP is better. Some people have LOTS of money, so that is not a consideration for them.
I stated earlier, .45 Super is my choice. If I was wealthy, really wealthy, I'd have every caliber I ever wanted, including 10MM, and, it's pretty hard not to think the Glock 29, with 10 rounds, is the perfect, light carry gun for California.
In Arizona, I doubt this will ever be brought up again.
Financially, yes, .45 ACP is better. Some people have LOTS of money, so that is not a consideration for them.
I stated earlier, .45 Super is my choice. If I was wealthy, really wealthy, I'd have every caliber I ever wanted, including 10MM, and, it's pretty hard not to think the Glock 29, with 10 rounds, is the perfect, light carry gun for California.
In Arizona, I doubt this will ever be brought up again.
Black Butte
Member
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- Jun 21, 2008
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- 888
As stated in the Motion for New Trial: "The defendant adamantly maintains that decedent Kuenzli was armed when he charged the defendant."
At the very least, there is a material question of fact as to whether an armed Kuenzli charged Fish or not. Therefore, your CANNOT make assertion that Kuenzli ONLY shouted and did nothing more.
This is the third time I have provided you with notice of your error. You cannot wish away facts by clinging to ignorance. Why not learn from your mistake and move on?
easyg
Member
Certainly the .45 Super and the 10mm carry more energy than the .45ACP, but I wouldn't say there's a near doubling of energy...
230g .45 Auto approx. 400 ft. lbs.
230g .45 Super approx. 600 ft. lbs.
230g 10mm Auto approx. 640 ft. lbs.
NinjaFeint
Member
I just made this choice yesterday...I bought an RZ-45 over an RZ-10
Why? Because I can find ammo for it, there is no point to 10mm unless you shoot full power and full power 10mm are hard to find, expensive and not particularly pleasant to shoot out of most handguns.
Why? Because I can find ammo for it, there is no point to 10mm unless you shoot full power and full power 10mm are hard to find, expensive and not particularly pleasant to shoot out of most handguns.
The high energy round is the 185 at 1350 fps.
Energy of 749 foot-pounds for a 185 grain bullet at 1350 fps.
Your right, the other loads are around 640 ft-pds.
The usual standard load for .45 ACP:
Energy of 369 foot-pounds for a 230 grain bullet at 850 fps.
The major problem with the Fish case is he put his credibility at issue by talking to the police. Apparently he had a problem with recalling the events accurately. Not unusual in this kind of case.
That area seemed to be a fairly small community, and I don't know what people knew about the attacker. Fish might have known Kuenzili by reputation, since in a small community, that would be possible.
However, none of that testimony got in in the first trial.
The dog had priors, and was almost killed by LEO for biting him from behind.
When you add in that Kuenzili was a rapist, and a kidnapper, along with having a history of using his hands to strangle people, attempted murder I gather, twice, having him charging at you DOES matter.
The possibility of Kuenzili having some sort of weapon, a stick, rock, etc. that could have been lost at the crime scene, or overlooked is another possibility.
The problem is really we don't know if Kuenzili was armed, and, since no evidence is present to support that, it puts Fish's testimony in a questionable light.
Energy of 749 foot-pounds for a 185 grain bullet at 1350 fps.
Your right, the other loads are around 640 ft-pds.
The usual standard load for .45 ACP:
Energy of 369 foot-pounds for a 230 grain bullet at 850 fps.
The major problem with the Fish case is he put his credibility at issue by talking to the police. Apparently he had a problem with recalling the events accurately. Not unusual in this kind of case.
That area seemed to be a fairly small community, and I don't know what people knew about the attacker. Fish might have known Kuenzili by reputation, since in a small community, that would be possible.
However, none of that testimony got in in the first trial.
The dog had priors, and was almost killed by LEO for biting him from behind.
When you add in that Kuenzili was a rapist, and a kidnapper, along with having a history of using his hands to strangle people, attempted murder I gather, twice, having him charging at you DOES matter.
The possibility of Kuenzili having some sort of weapon, a stick, rock, etc. that could have been lost at the crime scene, or overlooked is another possibility.
The problem is really we don't know if Kuenzili was armed, and, since no evidence is present to support that, it puts Fish's testimony in a questionable light.
Last edited:
Black Butte
Member
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- Jun 21, 2008
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- 888
I have ZERO interest in your philosophy of defense, so your attempt at deflection will not work. The issue here is your false statement, therefore, you have told me nothing aside from repeating your incorrect assertion that Kuenzli did not charge Fish and that he did not have a weapon. At least now you're admitting that Kuenzli may have charged Fish. It is also a question of material fact as to whether Kuenzli had some sort of implement in his hand. Again, you cannot rewrite the facts of the case by repeating incorrect statements ad nauseam.
intercooler
member
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- Feb 22, 2011
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- 986
Who cares about the fish case. Time to drop it
Cocked & Locked
Member
If I had the ability to lock this thread I would do so.
R.W.Dale
Member
Funny thing how whimsical us gun owners can be.
Not two days ago I was suggesting how for the purposes of this thread. That 45 is the at least equal choice.
And yet
After going gunshop hopping for a full sized glock to replace my g32 for CC and general use what do I bring home? A LNIB glock 20....yes a 10mm
I have no credibility whatsoever.
As to some other posters its just good forum ediquette to start your own topic in the appropriate forum when the tangent discussion goes so in depth its no longer about the title subject. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong its just plain rude.
Now if this topic stays open ill add my reasoning for selecting 10mm over the same guns in 9mm, 45acp and GAP earlier
posted via tapatalk using android.
Not two days ago I was suggesting how for the purposes of this thread. That 45 is the at least equal choice.
And yet
After going gunshop hopping for a full sized glock to replace my g32 for CC and general use what do I bring home? A LNIB glock 20....yes a 10mm
I have no credibility whatsoever.
As to some other posters its just good forum ediquette to start your own topic in the appropriate forum when the tangent discussion goes so in depth its no longer about the title subject. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong its just plain rude.
Now if this topic stays open ill add my reasoning for selecting 10mm over the same guns in 9mm, 45acp and GAP earlier
posted via tapatalk using android.
In a discussion of self-defense calibers a key issue is how that caliber is treated by the law, and in court.
Has anyone ever seen anything like the fuss made over the 10MM in the Fish case?
The type of gun was immaterial to our determinations on whether to file charges. It was the situation, and, if under California law the person was justified in using deadly force.
Some of the guys in our area still carry .41 Magnum's as LEO carry guns.
Other bad guys are running around with .454 Casull's. Never been an issue, yet.
It is helpful to know that Kentucky LEO carry the 10MM, and what other agencies carry it?
For this area, the standard issue LEO gun is a Sig Sauer P220. For our area, it would be easy to justify the caliber, since LEO uses it.
Anyone have anything similar with .45 ACP where a DA tried to paint the caliber as 'over-powered' with dangerous ammunition?
Has anyone ever seen anything like the fuss made over the 10MM in the Fish case?
The type of gun was immaterial to our determinations on whether to file charges. It was the situation, and, if under California law the person was justified in using deadly force.
Some of the guys in our area still carry .41 Magnum's as LEO carry guns.
Other bad guys are running around with .454 Casull's. Never been an issue, yet.
It is helpful to know that Kentucky LEO carry the 10MM, and what other agencies carry it?
For this area, the standard issue LEO gun is a Sig Sauer P220. For our area, it would be easy to justify the caliber, since LEO uses it.
Anyone have anything similar with .45 ACP where a DA tried to paint the caliber as 'over-powered' with dangerous ammunition?
R.W.Dale
Member
This thread is about 10 vs 45 not FISH & 10mm vs the State
swallow your dang pride and start your own thread in legal.
posted via tapatalk using android.
swallow your dang pride and start your own thread in legal.
posted via tapatalk using android.
Bozwell
Member
I've seen a lot of discussion over the Fish case but very little of it having to do with the choice of caliber weapon. Whether or not the decedent had a screwdriver on his person has nothing to with 10mm vs 45acp. The definition of common law and the source used to define it has nothing to do with 10mm vs 45acp. And so on. Trying to spin it the many Fish tangents in this thread as discussing a "key issue" in the caliber debate is just laughable.
My $0.02, I will probably pick up a 10mm if and when I start reloading (currently in the brass saving stage) because of the many reloading possibilities for that caliber. Otherwise, 45acp would probably be my choice if I wanted a larger caliber due to its availability. That said, I mostly shoot a mix of 9mm (mostly luger but some makarov) and use the same in HD/CCW's .
My $0.02, I will probably pick up a 10mm if and when I start reloading (currently in the brass saving stage) because of the many reloading possibilities for that caliber. Otherwise, 45acp would probably be my choice if I wanted a larger caliber due to its availability. That said, I mostly shoot a mix of 9mm (mostly luger but some makarov) and use the same in HD/CCW's .
"I am considering getting a self defense pistol, full size in either 45ACP or 10mm."
Self-Defense is NOT a simple subject. Things get messy when you actually use your self-defense gun.
I'll play Mas Ayoob here and say that one of the chief considerations in how the court system sees your self-defense use IS the caliber, and firearm you use.
His theory is that when you use a caliber that is used by your local LEO, or some other LEO agency, it easier to defend your use of that caliber, ammunition, and firearm in your local court. Use the appeal to authority, the government stamp on the caliber, as it is.
He has an excellent point that legal communities are rather small, and everyone knows everybody else. If your choice of weapon sticks out, or draws attention, then a DA may try and bring that in.
That's what they did in Fish, and, the guy did spend 10 years in jail.
Ayoob would say that it's best not to make a choice that is far outside the SD standard box, or, the LEO standard box.
It gets more complicated, since in different areas, different firearms are used by LEO. If I lived in Kentucky, 10MM is an excellent choice. One could argue that in any state, or county, or city that the standard issue is the .40,
a good defense attorney probably can defend the 10MM choice.
The same might be argued about using .45 ACP, in San Diego, where they like their 9MM with 147 grain HST's, for LEO's.
In the unlikely event that you are ever going to have to use your gun, these are all things that should weigh somewhere in your caliber decision.
IF you use a caliber different from your local LEO calibers, you are likely
to have to bring in very expensive expert witnesses to justify that caliber as a viable self-defense choice.
The advantage to using a caliber that is picked by your local LEO is you can bring in the armour and the people that decided on that caliber for your local LEO, and have them testify as to why they picked that caliber. You have an expert, without the expense.
Is it worth risking getting into a battle of the 3000 dollar an hour experts just to carry some odd for your area caliber? That's your choice, and your issue to balance, but, it's one that weighs in the choice of either of the calibers in question for self-defense here.
Self-Defense is NOT a simple subject. Things get messy when you actually use your self-defense gun.
I'll play Mas Ayoob here and say that one of the chief considerations in how the court system sees your self-defense use IS the caliber, and firearm you use.
His theory is that when you use a caliber that is used by your local LEO, or some other LEO agency, it easier to defend your use of that caliber, ammunition, and firearm in your local court. Use the appeal to authority, the government stamp on the caliber, as it is.
He has an excellent point that legal communities are rather small, and everyone knows everybody else. If your choice of weapon sticks out, or draws attention, then a DA may try and bring that in.
That's what they did in Fish, and, the guy did spend 10 years in jail.
Ayoob would say that it's best not to make a choice that is far outside the SD standard box, or, the LEO standard box.
It gets more complicated, since in different areas, different firearms are used by LEO. If I lived in Kentucky, 10MM is an excellent choice. One could argue that in any state, or county, or city that the standard issue is the .40,
a good defense attorney probably can defend the 10MM choice.
The same might be argued about using .45 ACP, in San Diego, where they like their 9MM with 147 grain HST's, for LEO's.
In the unlikely event that you are ever going to have to use your gun, these are all things that should weigh somewhere in your caliber decision.
IF you use a caliber different from your local LEO calibers, you are likely
to have to bring in very expensive expert witnesses to justify that caliber as a viable self-defense choice.
The advantage to using a caliber that is picked by your local LEO is you can bring in the armour and the people that decided on that caliber for your local LEO, and have them testify as to why they picked that caliber. You have an expert, without the expense.
Is it worth risking getting into a battle of the 3000 dollar an hour experts just to carry some odd for your area caliber? That's your choice, and your issue to balance, but, it's one that weighs in the choice of either of the calibers in question for self-defense here.
Bozwell
Member
I really think you're drumming up the legal ramifications of one's caliber choice. In one case one prosecutor argued that the caliber choice was relevant to show that the defendant was somehow looking for a fight due to his choice of a larger pistol cartridge. That's a pretty nonsensical argument to most people and I suspect one that's likely to fail in most circumstances. Let's also not forget the odds of ever having to use your weapon in self defense are slim and even then not all self-defense cases are prosecuted.
Furthermore, even in Fish, the caliber choice wasn't even the main issue in that case. It was just one argument raised by the prosecutor. There were a lot of other much more relevant questions about the defendant's state of mind, more specifically, what he knew about the decedent. That is, if he didn't know the decedent was a kidnapper/habitual stabber/whatever at the time of the shooting, it cuts against his defense. The same goes for whether he knew the decedent was armed with a screwdriver at the time. These factors are infinitely more relevant than the defendant's choice of caliber. Add in the fact that, even for the Fish case, the law in that state has since changed and the defendant was released from prison and the effect of that case on the caliber debate is minimal at best.
What really matters are the specific facts surrounding any self defense situation and the person's state of mind at that time. Rather than worrying about the slim chance of having to hire an expert to refute a weak argument raised by a prosecutor, I'd say you're better off spending your time practicing with your preferred caliber (because there is no perfect choice for everyone) and, if you ever have to use your weapon in self defense, making sure the circumstances merit it.
Furthermore, even in Fish, the caliber choice wasn't even the main issue in that case. It was just one argument raised by the prosecutor. There were a lot of other much more relevant questions about the defendant's state of mind, more specifically, what he knew about the decedent. That is, if he didn't know the decedent was a kidnapper/habitual stabber/whatever at the time of the shooting, it cuts against his defense. The same goes for whether he knew the decedent was armed with a screwdriver at the time. These factors are infinitely more relevant than the defendant's choice of caliber. Add in the fact that, even for the Fish case, the law in that state has since changed and the defendant was released from prison and the effect of that case on the caliber debate is minimal at best.
What really matters are the specific facts surrounding any self defense situation and the person's state of mind at that time. Rather than worrying about the slim chance of having to hire an expert to refute a weak argument raised by a prosecutor, I'd say you're better off spending your time practicing with your preferred caliber (because there is no perfect choice for everyone) and, if you ever have to use your weapon in self defense, making sure the circumstances merit it.
R.W.Dale
Member
So what you're really saying is that 9mm 40 and 45 are the ONLY viable calibers?
That's utter and complete hogwash.
Because it'll take said expert to convince the jury that 32acp isn't extra deadly assasin ammo.
(Vague history reference)
Just get out of this thread all of you are making fools of yourselves just trying to proove whose the most wrong
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That's utter and complete hogwash.
Because it'll take said expert to convince the jury that 32acp isn't extra deadly assasin ammo.
(Vague history reference)
Just get out of this thread all of you are making fools of yourselves just trying to proove whose the most wrong
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easyg
Member
Okay, I see where you're getting the nearly doubled energy numbers.
But that's comparing loads of different weights.
But if you're going to mix weights and loads then you must also consider the lighter .45 Auto loads and the +P .45 Auto loads....
200g Speer .45 Auto+P = 518 ft. lbs.
165g Corbon .45 Auto+P = 573 ft. lbs.
Bozwell:
This is Mas Ayoob's hobby horse, I don't ride it. However, it needs to be presented for consideration by anyone that posts in a public forum about buying a SD gun.
Along with that, knowing the state laws you are subject to is vital as well.
Read the appellate review of Fish's appeal, and you'll see a bunch of malpractice on the part of his trial attorney's, failing to raise key objections at the proper time, and to preserve Fish's rights to appeal, and his own big mouth, both in the grand jury and in the trial creates a serious issue with his credibility.
Here is the link:
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.asp...0000.xml&docbase=CSLWAR3-2007-CURR&SizeDisp=7
He deserves 10 years for being stupid, and not listening to his attorneys.
That said, the appellate judges would open up the admission of evidence a bit, and that would be enough to make sure Fish was not convicted on retrial.
The bottom line is Fish may have known, or been warned about this guy, since he was infamous in the area. That evidence never came in.
In a way, this is any CCW carrier's worse nightmare. The guy has dogs with a history of attacking people, and bad behavior. The attacker is in fact a rapist, kidnapper, and assault and battery felony, perhaps attempted murder person, who is mentally unhinged. The person being attacked through instinct, and a bit of training, or perhaps being warned, is perceptive enough to think, correctly, that his life was in danger, or that the threat of serious bodily harm was coming, either from the attacker, or from the dogs, now out of site. He shoots, then finds no visible weapon.
This has variations, but, it's the same problem with any defense where your state of mind is at issue. How do you rationalize to a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks that the guy was going to kill, or severely harm you, you KNEW it by animal reaction, not reasoning, and you saved your own life?
That's why shifting the burden of proof is such a key issue.
As for how this effects your choice between 10MM and .45 ACP:
Know the state law you are governed by. Know the precedent in your area. Know your judges and your DA's. Know what caliber your LEO carry. Democracy, or this Republic, require active participation.
Facts are simple: If you use your gun ONCE, it could be the last thing you ever do as a free man. Do take this commitment seriously.
Fish's testimony is a classic problem in a case where the burden is on the defendant: He has to testify to what his state of mind was, when he's trying to figure out what the state of mind of a man who is mentally unstable, and totally unpredictable. By nature, that testimony is not going be consistent, and is subject to Fish's second guessing of what he was really thinking at the time, and what he thought the defendant was thinking, which he cannot know.
What it also shows is your 'training' maybe something you should do, and never say.
I looked at a Glock 29 today. Price was VERY good, 529, IIRC. Also looked at the Kahr P45, nice gun, but 900 bucks. The Block, if I could conceal it, would be a perfect CCW gun. The P45 is popular with the shop owners, and two of them own em. It's the Block on a diet.
I keep thinking I'd rather have a nice, new Stainless Colt Commander for 100 bucks more.
Guy won't give me enough on the Single Six to make a trade worth it.
This is Mas Ayoob's hobby horse, I don't ride it. However, it needs to be presented for consideration by anyone that posts in a public forum about buying a SD gun.
Along with that, knowing the state laws you are subject to is vital as well.
Read the appellate review of Fish's appeal, and you'll see a bunch of malpractice on the part of his trial attorney's, failing to raise key objections at the proper time, and to preserve Fish's rights to appeal, and his own big mouth, both in the grand jury and in the trial creates a serious issue with his credibility.
Here is the link:
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.asp...0000.xml&docbase=CSLWAR3-2007-CURR&SizeDisp=7
He deserves 10 years for being stupid, and not listening to his attorneys.
That said, the appellate judges would open up the admission of evidence a bit, and that would be enough to make sure Fish was not convicted on retrial.
The bottom line is Fish may have known, or been warned about this guy, since he was infamous in the area. That evidence never came in.
In a way, this is any CCW carrier's worse nightmare. The guy has dogs with a history of attacking people, and bad behavior. The attacker is in fact a rapist, kidnapper, and assault and battery felony, perhaps attempted murder person, who is mentally unhinged. The person being attacked through instinct, and a bit of training, or perhaps being warned, is perceptive enough to think, correctly, that his life was in danger, or that the threat of serious bodily harm was coming, either from the attacker, or from the dogs, now out of site. He shoots, then finds no visible weapon.
This has variations, but, it's the same problem with any defense where your state of mind is at issue. How do you rationalize to a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks that the guy was going to kill, or severely harm you, you KNEW it by animal reaction, not reasoning, and you saved your own life?
That's why shifting the burden of proof is such a key issue.
As for how this effects your choice between 10MM and .45 ACP:
Know the state law you are governed by. Know the precedent in your area. Know your judges and your DA's. Know what caliber your LEO carry. Democracy, or this Republic, require active participation.
Facts are simple: If you use your gun ONCE, it could be the last thing you ever do as a free man. Do take this commitment seriously.
Fish's testimony is a classic problem in a case where the burden is on the defendant: He has to testify to what his state of mind was, when he's trying to figure out what the state of mind of a man who is mentally unstable, and totally unpredictable. By nature, that testimony is not going be consistent, and is subject to Fish's second guessing of what he was really thinking at the time, and what he thought the defendant was thinking, which he cannot know.
What it also shows is your 'training' maybe something you should do, and never say.
I looked at a Glock 29 today. Price was VERY good, 529, IIRC. Also looked at the Kahr P45, nice gun, but 900 bucks. The Block, if I could conceal it, would be a perfect CCW gun. The P45 is popular with the shop owners, and two of them own em. It's the Block on a diet.
I keep thinking I'd rather have a nice, new Stainless Colt Commander for 100 bucks more.
Guy won't give me enough on the Single Six to make a trade worth it.
You are the one making the false statement in your representation of my post. I never said that Kuenzli did not charge Fish. Nor did I say that Kuenzli was unarmed. I in fact said that Kuenzli was armed, but Fish did not know it at the time he shot him.
You are forgetting that we are dealing with a reasonable person standard which does not take into consideration unknowns and possibilities. There is an old saying, "If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa." I promise you there does not exist a jurisdiction in this country that would have permitted the Fish shooting, and Fish would still be prosecuted today if he had shot this man under the same circumstances.
Black Butte
Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2008
- Messages
- 888
Whether "grandma has balls" is irrelevant. You clearly indicate, as shown below, that Kuenzli was "unarmed" and engaging in "verbal threats alone." On this point you were wrong, as was pointed out to you four times now.
Your attempts at deflection, misdirection, and denial cannot change the facts.
Your attempts at deflection, misdirection, and denial cannot change the facts.
R.W.Dale
Member
OMG do you guys really not have anything better to do!
This entire thread is a deflection from its subject. The mods need to drive a stake through the heart of this one before it infects the other surrounding threads.
posted via tapatalk using android.
This entire thread is a deflection from its subject. The mods need to drive a stake through the heart of this one before it infects the other surrounding threads.
posted via tapatalk using android.
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