185gr JHP in .45 Colt (Ruger Load)

[Gryffydd]

So I'm toying with the idea of loading up some .45 Colt +P with my Nosler 185gr JHPs that I bought for my .45 ACP, preferably using H110.

The problem I'm running into is that I can't find much in the way of load data. Hodgdon shows a max of 31.5gr H110 for a 180gr XTP in .44 magnum at 29k CUP. Given that at identical bullet weights across the board the .45 Colt loads run about 10% more powder and 20-30% less pressure, I would expect to be looking at around 34gr H110 for a 185gr JHP--but "I would expect" isn't good enough for me to go load them up...

I know it's not really playing to the .45 Colt's strengths, and I'm not sure how the H110 and the taper crimp will perform together. I think there might be a good reason nobody has load data for that combo, but I'd really like to have a light/fast JHP load in .45 Colt that would be a big brother to my 125gr JHP loads in .357 Mag.

Anybody doing anything like this? What bullet/powder combos? I'm thinking H110 as it'll most likely get me the best velocity, but I'm open to other ideas.

P.S. This is for a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk.

 

[zeke]

H110 may get you the most velocity, perhaps not the "best" velocity for a bullet designed to be used at 45 acp velocitys. Sierra's 45 lc 185 grain accuracy load has worked very well in Rugers tried in . Believe it is 11.3 grains unique under a 180 jhp. Got about 1150 fps from 4 5/8 Ruger. An accurate controllable load with avelocity the bullet was designed for. Ya still need to assure asdequate case neck tension. The POI will vary considerable from heavier bullet loads.

 

[FROGO207]

Don't forget that the brass cartridge for the 45LC was not designed for the high pressure that we try to push it to in modern firearms. It is not capable of the 357 or 44 MAG pressures even if the firearm will take the charge. This may be part of the reason the data is lacking. I personally will keep the loads within reason to prevent possible case failure. If you do I would use Starline brass as I feel it is more robust than any other brands.

I am going to try to figure out a good load for my NEF Handirifle but with a heavy lead bullet. I did talk with someone at NEF and they advised me to ease up on the 45-70 max loads as a permanent diet because the barrel/action was not designed for that type of pressure and might fail. I will keep that in mind when working up the 45LC loads also.

 

[ljnowell]

Don't forget that the brass cartridge for the 45LC was not designed for the high pressure that we try to push it to in modern firearms. It is not capable of the 357 or 44 MAG pressures even if the firearm will take the charge. This may be part of the reason the data is lacking. I personally will keep the loads within reason to prevent possible case failure. If you do I would use Magtech brass as I feel it is more robust than any other brands.

Thats not exactly true, at least not according to John Linebaugh, and he knows an awful lot about hot 45 colt loads.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

The Myth of The "Weak" .45 Colt Case

There has been so much written about the "weak" .45 Colt case. This probably started when The Grand Old Man of the Shooting game, Elmer Keith made this statement in His excellent book Sixguns. "While shooting a 300 gr 45/90 rifle bullet in my .45 Colt SAA with 35 grains of black. Finally a weak .45 Colt case head blew off with this load. The gas blew the loading gate off the gun breaking its shank and cutting through the flesh of my trigger finger. From this experience I decided the bullet was a bit heavy for the thin cases and thin chamber walls of the cylinders. I cut one band and groove from the mould leaving it to cast a 260 gr flat point bullet. This worked very well with 40 grains of black. It was a very good game killer and flatter in trajectory curve than the 300 grain slug with 35 grains of black" ( Sixguns by Keith page 129)

I have no doubt in my mind the weak case came from corrosion due to shooting corrosive primers and black powder. Elmer was also shooting old balloon head cases, not the solid head we have today. The fact that he said, Quote: a weak case,, not, finally one of the WEAK cases let go, means a singular case, not a common recurrence. Modern writers often picture a fired .45 Colt case with a noticeable bulge just above the web of the case. They continually protest the .45 Colt case is "weak". The only thing weak is their limited research on the subject. The cartridge case in any firearm is simply a gasket to seal the hot gases away from the shooter and the firearm. Yes, it's critical that this component be of best quality and design. But overall the firearm itself contains the pressure. The reason the .45 Colt case bulges is the chambers in NEARLY ALL modern .45 Colt chambered arms are grossly oversize. The case simply has to stretch beyond its elastic limit to reach the support of the chambers of the firearm. The modern .45 Colt case measures .476 diameter at the case head web area. Most modern chambers run from .486 upwards to .490. This means the new case has to expand from .010 to .014 to seal the chamber and be supported by the firearm. It is then reseized and the process repeated till the case fails. And fail it will, and more than likely prematurely due to overworking. Modern MAGNUM brass will do the same if fired in too large a chamber. Shooting a .44 magnum round in .45 colt chamber (NOTE; THIS IS A PRACTICE I DEFINITELY DO NOT RECOMMEND) will bear this out. Cartridge brass does not have the tensile strength of modern steels. ITS MERELY A GASKET..............................The .45 Colt case is just as strong as any handgun case on the market. Especially in the Federal brand. I have proof load data here from Hornadys pressure barrel that goes over 62,000 CUP. I have shot this load hundreds of times in my special 5 shot custom revolvers and with our tight chambers case life is excellent. And primer pockets remain tight till the case is discarded due to split necks. This comes from repeated crimping and case mouth belling. The Winchester case will stand the pressure fine, but will begin to get sticky in the chambers after a couple of shots. This is not a weakness in the design of the case, it simply lacks the springy nature of the excellent Federal case. The Remington case is about half a good as the Winchester case. It's amply strong for any loads that can be safely used in any Ruger revolver, but I don't use them personally.

 

[FROGO207]

I was using what I had read in a 5 or so year old Speer reloading manual. That was not in regard to balloon head casings either there was a separate caution about those also. As is the case with all data I will take the above into consideration and choose my safety level accordingly. Thank you for posting the info above.
Rick

 

[Gryffydd]

It is not capable of the 357 or 44 MAG pressures even if the firearm will take the charge.

Maybe, maybe not, but in any case, (pun not intended ) nobody is talking about loading the .45 Colt to 357 or 44 Mag pressures--that's the beauty of the .45 Colt. I can do just about anything the 44 Mag can but without breaking 30k PSI. Any decent modern .45 Colt brass can handle that just fine.

If you do I would use Magtech brass as I feel it is more robust than any other brands.

I'm curious what led you to this conclusion. Have you bisected a case and measured all the relevant portions, or done any testing regarding the resiliency of the brass?

H110 may get you the most velocity, perhaps not the "best" velocity for a bullet designed to be used at 45 acp velocitys.

Which is kind of what I'm after. I want it to expand rapidly and dramatically and not penetrate very far.

 

[FROGO207]

After re reading my post and scratching my head some.:banghead:
I want to change the brass type I recommended to Starline as the brain cramp was that I was trying to say was that the Magtech was the poorest of the brass I have used. This is based on firing and max loading a small sample of each type casing repeatedly until the cases failed (split wall). The Starline lasted the longest, was the heaviest to begin with. the next best was RP casings followed by WIN in my test. Your results may be different.

 

[ljnowell]

After re reading my post and scratching my head some.
I want to change the brass type I recommended to Starline as the brain cramp was that I was trying to say was that the Magtech was the poorest of the brass I have used. This is based on firing and max loading a small sample of each type casing repeatedly until the cases failed (split wall). The Starline lasted the longest, was the heaviest to begin with. the next best was RP casings followed by WIN in my test. Your results may be different.

I have some magtech that I bought once fired from an indoor range. I only use it to load my target loads, usually like 6gr 700x or 5.8gr bullseye under a 255 gr LSWC. I use Starline for my Ruger only loads. I need to order some more, although no one has it in stock right now and starline is showing back order until 4-15. Anyone here know how reliable starline is on the dates of backorder? I would like to order some but dont want to wait until middle June to get it.

 

[Gryffydd]

Starline does make some good brass. This is from their website
"Our .45 Colt brass has been tested to .44 Magnum pressures in gun systems suitable for such loads."

So the brass is capable of working with pressures far higher than the Ruger only .45 Colt loads.

 

[whitetail2]

As a newby, I must ask. Isn't 45ACP, .451" and 45LC .452" ??

 

[zxcvbob]

That would take about 30 grains of 296, but N105 will beat it using only 20 grains.

I would probably use AA#7 or Blue Dot with those light bullets.

 

[Gryffydd]

I would probably use AA#7 or Blue Dot with those light bullets.

Hmm, I think I've got a bit of Blue Dot, I might have to try that out. It might be a bit more...efficient than a giant casefull of H110.

 

[Gryffydd]

As a newby, I must ask. Isn't 45ACP, .451" and 45LC .452" ??

Both are .452. Cast bullets are typically .452 for both and jacketed bullets come in both .451 and .452. However, it is true that most of the jacketed bullets intended for the 45 Colt (typically over 230 grains and possessing a crimp cannelure) tend to be .452 and most of the jacketed bullets intended for the ACP are .451/

Once upon a time 45 Colt was .454, but that's ancient history at this point.

 

[zeke]

Gryffydd-if real fast expansion and minimal penetration is what you're after (we used to call em splatter loads), might want to be careful with the case neck tension. Especially with higher end loads, bullets that do not have a cannelure and are usually .450-.451 diameter. Have used a Corbin cannelure tool, which works very well to put a cannelure on 45 acp bullets. Turning down your neck expander plug, and or using 45 acp dies on the neck of the case can also help.

Otherwise ya need to be real careful abourt bullets "pulling" out and tying up your cylinder. Measure, shoot one round then measure again.

If using cases in just one revolver, you can usually just "neck size" the cases for several loadings to minimize over working em.

P.S. if you are thinking self defense loads, as a "big brother" to the 357 mag, don't put much faith they will have half the penetration a 125 gn jhp 357 would have, they will be hard to control and have substancial concussion and flash.

 

[zxcvbob]

You can also use the base of a .30-06, .308, .270, etc. rifle die to neck size .45 Colt cases to give good neck tension with undersized bullets (if you don't have a .45 ACP die)

 

[Gryffydd]

Thanks for the ideas everybody. I think "splatter load" perfectly describes what I'm after I'm not really thinking in terms of a defensive load, mostly something fun to shoot at rotten watermelons and whatnot And of course just to try something new and different.

I do have .45acp dies as well as .30-06, so something there might help out. That Corbin tool looks pretty cool. I look forward to having a spare $140 or so for it...