1861 Springfield progress report. Far from "there", but there is hope.

[Ugly Sauce]

I got some of the .577"Min-yays from TOW to try out. As you know, don't know, might remember/don't remember or don't care, I've been trying for years to get some decent accuracy with hunting loads. As you are all tired of hearing, I hunt in the "Harvey Creek Grizzly Recovery Area" in the North Eastern corner of Washington state, and I am NOT going to hunt there with the 60 grain service load. And it's not helpful to tell me how the service load will take care of anything and shoot through a horse at 500 yards. !!!

I was set on not going under 80 grains, I'd die first, but I tried this bullet over 70 grains and got "pretty good" results. Recoil was nice, nothing like 80 to 100 grain loads, but enough to let me know it still had some punch. (2fg Swiss) The trouble I've been having has been wild flyers. With my .575" minnie' I'd sometime get them going where I wanted them, but then one would completely miss the back-stop, about a 4X4' hunk of plywood.

Today, I got one flyer, first shot. Bottom target, the one just off the plate. This was only 50 yards, and it still would have gone into the boiler room. At 100 not sure if it would still be on the animal. But the rest flew good. What I had done different was to fill the base of the .577's with SPG, then I dipped them in hot wax to seal that in, and make a tighter fit in the bore. With the wax, they fit very nice and tight. But ram easily. Then I tried a .575" which I had done the same thing to. Wow. Wild flyer. Just barely clipped the far edge of the backstop/Plywood. So I loaded up one more .577", and it went right into the bullseye on the top target. That was nice.

I cleaned the barrel after every shot, as I hunt with a clean barrel. No, not just wipe, but cleaned, about a dozen patches between shots.

I've had "some" luck with the REAL bullet, 456 grains out of my mold, but again, that once in a while wild flyer. And I'm not talking normal flyers from shooter error, but wild miss-a-big-hunk-of-plywood back-stop target board flyer. Off into outer space!

So, my question is: looking through the Accurate Molds website, I see the TC type bullet. Does anyone have experience with it? I like the diameters, and I like the solid/flat base. Do you think it would do well over stout loads, in the shallow three-groove Springfield rifling?

Do any of you know, or can suggest a specific bullet that would do well over loads in the 80-90 grain range? Or is that just not going to happen with the shallow 3-groove rifling?

Are any of you familiar with, and have experience with the Prichet bullet, loaded paper patched in it's cartridge? It was loaded with a 68 grain charge, close enough to my new bottom line of 70 grains, or go home. I really like the Pritchet cartridge, and think it would be fun to make them. However, a bit of an expense to make them, with the template, bottom plug maker, and special mold which may or may not be produced right now. I saw on "Paper Cartridges" youtube where they chronographed the Pritchet cartridge, and the U.S. Springfield cartridge. The Springfield cartridge with 60 grains of pixie dust only produced a little over 900fps. The Pritchet cartridge went 1250fps.

Last and least, I've tried everything as far as powders, how many "f's", lubes, etc. Not my first rodeo. So, that information not so "helpful". Thanks for listening, thanks in advance for any suggestions regarding specific bullets that would work good over hunting charges. Remember I'm not just trying to kill a deer or elk, I'm thinking more of Grizz coming at me with evil intent.

 

[hawg]

I think you're going to have trouble with anything under .577. You might even do better with .578 or .579 altho loading might be a little harder. I've never used a Pritchett. I have used 70 grains with a thin skirted .577 minie but much more and it's going to blow a skirt. I suspect that's what's happening with your flyers. You might try a thick skirted minie or try making them out of harder lead. Just remember if you make them out of harder lead they will be bigger out of the mold.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Thank you Hawg. Yes, the bore on this thing (an awesome beautiful thing) is a full 580". Getting better results with the .577's (the same bullet you shoot I think) and then an instant wild flyer with a .575" is confirming that I think. The .577's were really starting to group, then that .575 goes zooming off into the next county. !!!

I think a .578" would be ideal, as I'm hunting rather than fighting the Civil War ease of loading is not a big deal. As long as I can load three without a struggle, I'm good. I always carry paper cartridges with round-ball (some double-ball) that will load and fire all day, in case the wolves declare war on me. So I need accuracy and power more than trying to charge up Little Round Top. But the round-ball paper cartridges enable me to stop Picket's Charge, if need be.

As I got no wild flyers with the .577's, I don't think 70 grains is blowing skirts. For sure, in the past with the much heavier loads that could have been happening. However, I do get wild flyers on occasion with the REAL, which has no skirt, so that is a mystery. I may have to shoot some more of those over 70 grains. Why they fly is puzzling, judging by the holes in the target, those are some of the most stabilized bullets I've ever shot. Of course not stable if they are jumping the rifling.

I'm a bit leery of casting with harder lead, that can be a problem if a hard slug does not want to go all the way down the bore. I also like the expansion of pure lead. But you are right, they would cast out larger. I also kind of hate to spoil any of my pure lead by tossing harder lead into the pot.

I think I'll order one more small batch of the .577's from TOW, do a little more shooting and decide if I should get a mold for that bullet/slug. But I'm really kind of interested in the Pritchet bullet and cartridge. Since it is paper patched, one could adjust diameter using different thickness of paper. That could really be a way to fine tune the fit of the bullet to the bore.

 

[hawg]

I shoot an original style minie cast from a Lyman mold. It's not a realistic copy. It has scrapers that really seem to help with fouling.



I used to have a mold for a Lee Trashcan minie. It was almost as accurate and extremely destructive on anything it hit but I gave it away years ago.

 

[AlexanderA]

Any details you can give us about the gun? Original? Reproduction?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Try weighing the bullets, you may be running into a small void or air pocket that's throwing it off center...just a thought.

 

[Lefty38-55]

Forget Track, Tony from the Cast Bullet Shop could sell you some UNsized ones, much cheaper than TOW, maybe 2 for the price of their 1. Get the sizer from Northeast Trading, link =

ONLINE STORE | home

www.northeasttradeco.com

With your heavier charges, try Tony's 'target minie' as it has a thick skirt, which is what you'd need!

 

[hawg]

They don't look any thicker than the Lyman or Lee.



That Northeast Trading Doesn't exactly instill confidence.

Welcome to North East Trade Company​

We're here to serve your Mussleloading and BlackPower needs. We've been doing so since 1974.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Anybody read Joe Bilby's book, Civil War Firearms? I never shot a 1861 or 63 replica Springfield and my experience is limited to Parker Hale Enfields (2 band short rifle and cavalry/artillery carbine) with minies casted from a Parker Hale mold and a Whitworth.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Anybody read Joe Bilby's book, Civil War Firearms? I never shot a 1861 or 63 replica Springfield and my experience is limited to Parker Hale Enfields (2 band short rifle and cavalry/artillery carbine) with minies casted from a Parker Hale mold and a Whitworth.

I've always been curious as to what style rifling the Enfields have. It "seems", from what I've heard, that they are a little more accurate. However, a hard one to judge as all the "rifled muskets" and their ammo were a compromise between accuracy and ease of repeated loading. These days, I think most guys just go the reduced powder charge route to get better accuracy.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Forget Track, Tony from the Cast Bullet Shop could sell you some UNsized ones, much cheaper than TOW, maybe 2 for the price of their 1. Get the sizer from Northeast Trading, link =

ONLINE STORE | home

www.northeasttradeco.com

With your heavier charges, try Tony's 'target minie' as it has a thick skirt, which is what you'd need!

Thanks for the tip. For sure, might have to find an oversize bullet and then invest in a sizing die.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Try weighing the bullets, you may be running into a small void or air pocket that's throwing it off center...just a thought.

As usual Jack, you know stuff. I have considered that. The bullets I got from Track were not "great" castings. (although they are shooting quite well) I could see some voids looking up into the base. "word on the street" says they are hard bullets to cast well, although I've never had a problem casting big .58" slugs, and I've been casting bullets for a long time, so I'm not sure there is much truth to that. I imagine anyone at TOW casting them for sale probably concentrates more on volume, then quality. But again, that bullet is shooting the best so far.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Any details you can give us about the gun? Original? Reproduction?

Oh yeah. Duh! First off I'll say this rifle is top quality. Yes...it's an "Armi-Sport" I know some don't hold the Armi-Sport in high regard (mostly those who insist on historical correctness) but this thing is a beauty. Fit and finish is above average, the wood is to die for, the bore is perfect, yada-yada, blah blah, there is nothing wrong with the rifle.

The bore is a full .580", possibly a hair more. So that's part of the problem I'm sure. I think I just need to find the right bullet, but not having a big money bag I can't really get a variety of molds just to try out.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I shoot an original style minie cast from a Lyman mold. It's not a realistic copy. It has scrapers that really seem to help with fouling.

View attachment 1172289

I used to have a mold for a Lee Trashcan minie. It was almost as accurate and extremely destructive on anything it hit but I gave it away years ago.

View attachment 1172290

Okay, that is a little different from the bullet from TOW. The one I got from them looks like yours, but just has grooves rather than the scrapers. And, two grooves rather than three. Yeah, the "Trashcan" min-yay I have a mold for, and it really does not shoot. .575" at best from my mold. I've paper patched it, filled the base with bondo, SPG and waxed it, reduced the base plug, you name it.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

They don't look any thicker than the Lyman or Lee.

View attachment 1172304

That Northeast Trading Doesn't exactly instill confidence.

Welcome to North East Trade Company​

We're here to serve your Mussleloading and BlackPower needs. We've been doing so since 1974.

I'm beginning to conclude that at 70 grains skirt blow-out should not be a problem or factor. But, with any mold where you can easily remove the base plug (I notice with the current LEE molds you can't "easily") one can reduce the diameter of the plug just on the drill press, and make the skirt thicker. Edit: in fact, one can turn the plug down to eliminate the hollow base/base cavity.

 

[Lefty38-55]

I'd agree with that, i.e., blown skirts.

But maybe you could go the other way? Find a solid or flat-based slug 0.001" over that 580 bore size and try that? But beware, barrel twist could be an issue if it becomes really heavy, which likes a faster twist.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I'd agree with that, i.e., blown skirts.

But maybe you could go the other way? Find a solid or flat-based slug 0.001" over that 580 bore size and try that? But beware, barrel twist could be an issue if it becomes really heavy, which likes a faster twist.

Oh I approve that message. Although, along those lines the REAL "should" shoot better. But again, I've not shot it over 70 grains. Usually 80 or more. Changes in lube, number of wads under it, or no wad do make differences. My last time shooting it was with no wad, and that seemed to help quite a bit, but still the occasional wild flyer.

On the Accurate Molds web site, there are two TC "style" slugs that look good to me. Just going on memory, they are around 578" on the base, and then the front driving band is .582", about. That would require a short starter possibly. The REAL requires a short starter, in my rifle, due to the oversized front driving band. I do avoid the short starter, but I'd use one on this rifle if it meant good consistent accuracy and no wild flyers. So yeah, open to solid base bullets, and in fact it makes more sense than skirted bullets, which exist to enhance expansion with light powder charges.

But having said that, !!!! I am still very interested in the Pritchet bullet and cartridge, with it's base plug and paper-jacketed bullet.

 

[woodnbow]

What’s the rate of twist? I don’t think the three groove rifling is a problem. Nor do I believe you need a ton of lube. Yes maybe for subsequent shots but in this case I would only be concerned about where the FIRST shot is going. Too much lube or blown skirts result in an unbalanced bullet which will fly like crap… maybe try something like either of these bullets sized right at bore size or a thousandth or so under. I hunt with .45 and 50 caliber bullets sized just under bore size and they will stay on the powder provided you exercise reasonable care. the bullets bump up on firing and nothing is more accurate.

 

[hawg]

I've always been curious as to what style rifling the Enfields have. It "seems", from what I've heard, that they are a little more accurate. However, a hard one to judge as all the "rifled muskets" and their ammo were a compromise between accuracy and ease of repeated loading. These days, I think most guys just go the reduced powder charge route to get better accuracy.

My original P53 Enfield has a bore size of .577 and three grooves with progressive depth and a 1:78 twist. I believe the Armisport barrels are a .580 bore and a 1:48 twist. One thing that really ticks me off about the NSSA is they allow really light loads and allow you to drill holes in the rear sight.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

What’s the rate of twist? I don’t think the three groove rifling is a problem. Nor do I believe you need a ton of lube. Yes maybe for subsequent shots but in this case I would only be concerned about where the FIRST shot is going. Too much lube or blown skirts result in an unbalanced bullet which will fly like crap… maybe try something like either of these bullets sized right at bore size or a thousandth or so under. I hunt with .45 and 50 caliber bullets sized just under bore size and they will stay on the powder provided you exercise reasonable care. the bullets bump up on firing and nothing is more accurate.

Well Hawg says 1:48 on the Armi-Sports. Man that's fast, but might explain the bullets jumping the rifling on heavy loads. I have looked at those bullets you posted, they look good to me. Not sure how they would load at .581" and I think the other was .583". (edit: .585") But with a couple of sizing dies it might be the way to get it just right. Yes I have tried little lube, no lube, and just wax for lube. There is probably no reason to think either of those bullets would not work well, with the ability to size them for a perfect fit. Something to consider for sure.

 

[woodnbow]

1:48 is very fast for a 58 but unless you’re shooting really heavy charges would think you could get accuracy from something you’ve tried… are there any tight spots in the bore?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

1:48 is very fast for a 58 but unless you’re shooting really heavy charges would think you could get accuracy from something you’ve tried… are there any tight spots in the bore?

The bore on that thing is perfect. I was shooting charges in the 80-100 grain range, I've just finally resigned myself to see what I can do at 70 grains. But that's the bottom line, 70 grains or go home!

I have got good accuracy, but the fly in the soup, the poop on the stoop, is that once in a while I get a flyer like two or three FEET out of the group. Therein lies the rub. But again, this last shooting session with the waxed .577's didn't do that. I got that one off the plate which was the first shot, then they started hitting home pretty good, even though it was only 50 yards. So I think, and hopefully I'm on the right track.

But feeling at home and warm and fuzzy in Grizz's backyard with a 45-70, I'm waking up to the fact that pushing a .58" slug with 70 grains ain't exactly chopped liver.

If indeed the twist is that fast, that might indicate that a longer, heavier slug will shoot best. That would be fine with me.

 

[hawg]

Minie balls have most of the weight forward so they shoot like round balls. That's why the originals had a slow twist.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I've always been curious as to what style rifling the Enfields have. It "seems", from what I've heard, that they are a little more accurate. However, a hard one to judge as all the "rifled muskets" and their ammo were a compromise between accuracy and ease of repeated loading. These days, I think most guys just go the reduced powder charge route to get better accuracy.

Progressive depth and smooth sided pritchett ball. Confederate tests in both the ANV and AOT showed the Enfield to be the most accurate of common guns; hence the 2 band short rifle was reserved for their sharpshooter battalions.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Yep, always wanted one of them-thar 2-band Enfields. Or an Enfield. But, that wild and crazy hammer on the Springfield led me to the 1861. Dang I love that hammer! If I had the skill, I'd convert my 1861 into a 2-band Springfield (don't think any actually existed?) but the rifle is way too beautiful for me to mess it up. Maybe Jack could do it, I don't know. Even so, I'd probably chicken out, that long-tom barrel is pretty cool.