1861 Springfield progress report. Far from "there", but there is hope.

[hawg]

.

 

[hawg]

The rifled musket is a wholly different animal (barrel & rifling-wise) than a traditional patched-ball set-up.

I know that. I have an original 1861 dated Enfield and an Armisport repro. I've had the repro since 1980 and the original since 1990. Dunno why it's doing a double quote.

.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Good luck.....
(REALs never worked for me)

But the OP's employing such a one-shot projectile in a weapons system otherwise
specifically designed for relatively fast/repeated reloading -- in battlefield/combat
stress conditions and without cleaning -- all to make it suitable for dangerous game....

.

Yes, I am a little bit crazy. But it is a fun experiment for me. An interesting "quest", but perhaps one that will never result in...the...desired result. I enjoy doing stuff like this. Much of my thinking is indeed illogical, I wander at ease in Grizzly's back yard sometimes with my .44 Magnum and a spear, or bow and arrow, but worry that a 500+ grain hunk of lead at 950fps won't be enough!

You have phrased my journey perfectly above. And if I fail to make it suitable for dangerous game...it's not the end of the world. I have two rifles that are VERY suitable, I just hate to regulate this rifle to a conversation piece or a paper-puncher.

I would also say that although getting a Springfield to pop out a min-yay over 42 grains of pixie dust accurately and consistently is not rocket-science, I think doing it with 80+ is. Or perhaps it is trying to re-invent the wheel, while keeping it square. !!! How's that for a weird analogy?

I will mention again that accuracy has not been the problem. It's the wild flyers. My last shooting session, I didn't get wild flyers. Perhaps rocket science will prevail. Or not. !!! Luck is indeed a factor, in finding the solution, if there is any.

On REAL's, I have got promising results, but I've never fired them over 70 grains. So I need to "re-visit" them, but being close to my next hunting trip I need to suspend the experiment for a while. The only thing I don't like about them is the lack of sectional density, it's really kind of a giant pistol bullet.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

In addition to Dave951's info on Minies, perhaps there is another factor at play here, in regards to the flyers.

GIVEN - Every barrel on any type of firearm or firelock when shot, whips in a sine wave manner, vibrating like a sideways 'S'. A node is where the barrel is at the point(s) of the LEAST movement. That is when you want your shot to be fired. There may be several nodes identified as you increase your powder charge; where I had one fire lock with 3 nodes, @ 55-grains, 75-grains and 105-grains. To test this, you randomly shoot 3-shot groups at a bullseye for each charge, beginning with your starting load and say working up in 5-grain increments for 6 different charges. Then repeat with another set of 4 to 6 up to what you think may be near your max charge.

For best results, do not shoot all of 1 charge at once, but switch it up, randomly shoot 1 charge, then another higher, then another less, etc. - only 1 shot @ each - until you have the 3-shots for each charge on the 6 targets. By NOT shooting all of one charge at once, 'statistically' you have normalized the data by eliminating your bias and spreading any human-induced variation across the spread of the total of all of the shots; say like you could begin to shoot poorly towards the end - when tired - as that could adversely influence or bias the last group's results. Statistically this method also significantly increases the confidence you can place in the results.

Those shots with the tightest group denote the range around a node. To fine tune, then experiment with a set of 2-grain increments starting say 4-grains below an identified node. I do similar for my modern 1,000-yard rifle, but this also works for black powder as I've proven it many times, like that above for that 54" barreled musket that had the 3 nodes!

View attachment 1172679

If your powder charge has the barrel MOVING when fired, that can be a source of flyers and depends on other factors such as heat in the barrel. Pay attention to when those flyers occur - are they purely random or only after already shooting a few shots? If that was a longrifle, with a pinned barrel, then I'd advise one to remove the barrel and change the pin holes to be slotted, especially out towards the muzzle where the most expansion from heat will occur. Perhaps the forward barrel bands on that martial arm are too tight? Also check the bedding.

Off-topic - But I think you're running into a situation where you want the heavier charge, and maybe using a solid-base slug so as to not blow out the skirt, but heavier bullets needs a faster twist, and me thinks that perhaps the barrel twist on that arm is the limiting factor. Bullets shot from non-optimal twist barrels are known to be a source of random flyers.

Dang it Lefty, you know stuff too! I will admit, all my experimentation so far has been haphazard, inconsistent, and non-scientific. And very random, I'll mess around with it for a while, and then back into the safe for months, or longer.

My flyers usually occur around the 4th-5th-6th shot "or so". I don't recall ever getting one first shot. Yes, the possibilities are endless, nodes, bedding, etc. Another thing, my money-bag just isn't big enough to purchase a variety of molds and sizing dies. That right there could narrow things down considerably. As it is, I kind of just work with what I have...which ain't much!

Anyhow, thanks for the input! That IS rocket science!!!!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The rifled musket is a wholly different animal (barrel & rifling-wise) than a traditional patched-ball set-up.

Which is why I often fantasize about reaming my barrel out to .590" and rifling it for patched round ball. !! But alas...the money bag thing.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

old style Minnie ball, and both would easily stop a horse at any practical range with the standard military load of 60gr 3F.

I get that argument a lot, but actually a horse will soak up quite a few slugs without stopping, even if it dies soon after, or later. I don't argue that the service charge is not powerful and lethal, but if I ever do have to shoot a Grizz, which is unlikely but "possible", (more chance of dying in a car wreck driving up North than a bear attack), with only one shot to decide the issue, I just want a bit more energy. Hopefully "enough difference to make a difference".

 

[hawg]

I get that argument a lot, but actually a horse will soak up quite a few slugs without stopping, even if it dies soon after, or later. I don't argue that the service charge is not powerful and lethal, but if I ever do have to shoot a Grizz, which is unlikely but "possible", (more chance of dying in a car wreck driving up North than a bear attack), with only one shot to decide the issue, I just want a bit more energy. Hopefully "enough difference to make a difference".

Lemme ask you this. How far way are you going to feel the need to shoot Mr. Grizzly? Do you really need pinpoint acuracy at a self defense range?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Lemme ask you this. How far way are you going to feel the need to shoot Mr. Grizzly? Do you really need pinpoint acuracy at a self defense range?

25 yards is where I draw the line, I'd not shoot Mr. Grizz beyond that. However, I'd be hunting deer or elk when using the Springfield, so I need/want minute of paper plate at 100 yards. For self defense alone, yeah my Bessie will give me pin-point accuracy at 25 yards. But she's not so good at 100. And again, my Jeager will do it all, but just once in while I'd like to take the Springfield out for a day, and be confident in both it's power and hunting accuracy.

 

[hawg]

25 yards is where I draw the line, I'd not shoot Mr. Grizz beyond that. However, I'd be hunting deer or elk when using the Springfield, so I need/want minute of paper plate at 100 yards. For self defense alone, yeah my Bessie will give me pin-point accuracy at 25 yards. But she's not so good at 100. And again, my Jeager will do it all, but just once in while I'd like to take the Springfield out for a day, and be confident in both it's power and hunting accuracy.

Gotcha

 

[Lefty38-55]

Which is why I often fantasize about reaming my barrel out to .590" and rifling it for patched round ball. !! But alas...the money bag thing.

I’d guess it would be about $150 or less from Bobby Hoyt (from PA). He took a smoothbore Baker I had and rifled it to be a 62-caliber rifle for only $80, where I think it was $17 shipping (had 2 barrels done, $34 total for shipping).

In your case, he must either ream it smooth and then rifle it or drill it out and add a liner, which can be a little more pricey. But he will let you know the cost upfront and he is wonderful to deal with!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Truth. I've heard lately that he's about six months or more behind. ?? If that could be done, I'd like to just have it reamed enough to eliminate the shallow three groove rifling, and then rifle it for round-ball. Gain a little caliber or ball weight. Not that the difference between .580" and .590 give or take is enough difference to make a difference. Looking at the muzzle end of my barrel, it does look a bit on the thin side though, so I'm not sure if there's enough "meat". The barrel tapers heavily of course, and if anything there is too much meat as you get towards the breech end! Heavy sucker that rifle. but I love every pound of it.

If my experiment/quest/fool's errand utterly fails, I probably should seriously look into that. I could afford a couple hundred bucks, and wait six months. How long ago did you get that done?

 

[Lefty38-55]

Truth. I've heard lately that he's about six months or more behind. ?? If that could be done, I'd like to just have it reamed enough to eliminate the shallow three groove rifling, and then rifle it for round-ball. Gain a little caliber or ball weight. Not that the difference between .580" and .590 give or take is enough difference to make a difference. Looking at the muzzle end of my barrel, it does look a bit on the thin side though, so I'm not sure if there's enough "meat". The barrel tapers heavily of course, and if anything there is too much meat as you get towards the breech end! Heavy sucker that rifle. but I love every pound of it.

If my experiment/quest/fool's errand utterly fails, I probably should seriously look into that. I could afford a couple hundred bucks, and wait six months. How long ago did you get that done?

Just this past Spring. Call him in the mornings, usually between 8 and 9 AM and he answers, let it ring. Send it to him and he can tell you what he can rifle it to. I wonder if he could rifle that to be a 62!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I wonder if he could rifle that to be a 62!

Very good question. As my Jeager is a .62", (I suspect actually .615") that would sure be nice. They could share the mold. Imagine...a .62 caliber round ball 1861 Springfield! Dang! Of course, long after I croaked it would wind up with some re-enactor, who would be disappointed and disgusted!!! "WHY WOULD ANYONE DO THAT????????" Then he'd send it to the future Hoyt and have it re-lined to .58".

 

[woodnbow]

So you're saying you're effectively engraving the solid bullet while seating it down the musket's bore?

Some do. I mostly use undersized bullets, .001 or so with a .030” card wad under the bullet. Yes, they will bump up into shallow rifling and spin at the proper rate. If my 20:1 alloy bullets will expand into .004” grooves well enough to be accurate to 600 yard I expect Ol’ Uglys soft lead bore size bullets will do so as well. They just need the proper persuasive force. Ie: a swift kick in the rear from a 100 grain boot.

 

[dave951]

In addition to Dave951's info on Minies, perhaps there is another factor at play here, in regards to the flyers.

GIVEN - Every barrel on any type of firearm or firelock when shot, whips in a sine wave manner, vibrating like a sideways 'S'. A node is where the barrel is at the point(s) of the LEAST movement. That is when you want your shot to be fired. There may be several nodes identified as you increase your powder charge; where I had one fire lock with 3 nodes, @ 55-grains, 75-grains and 105-grains. To test this, you randomly shoot 3-shot groups at a bullseye for each charge, beginning with your starting load and say working up in 5-grain increments for 6 different charges. Then repeat with another set of 4 to 6 up to what you think may be near your max charge.

For best results, do not shoot all of 1 charge at once, but switch it up, randomly shoot 1 charge, then another higher, then another less, etc. - only 1 shot @ each - until you have the 3-shots for each charge on the 6 targets. By NOT shooting all of one charge at once, 'statistically' you have normalized the data by eliminating your bias and spreading any human-induced variation across the spread of the total of all of the shots; say like you could begin to shoot poorly towards the end - when tired - as that could adversely influence or bias the last group's results. Statistically this method also significantly increases the confidence you can place in the results.

Those shots with the tightest group denote the range around a node. To fine tune, then experiment with a set of 2-grain increments starting say 4-grains below an identified node. I do similar for my modern 1,000-yard rifle, but this also works for black powder as I've proven it many times, like that above for that 54" barreled musket that had the 3 nodes!

View attachment 1172679

If your powder charge has the barrel MOVING when fired, that can be a source of flyers and depends on other factors such as heat in the barrel. Pay attention to when those flyers occur - are they purely random or only after already shooting a few shots? If that was a longrifle, with a pinned barrel, then I'd advise one to remove the barrel and change the pin holes to be slotted, especially out towards the muzzle where the most expansion from heat will occur. Perhaps the forward barrel bands on that martial arm are too tight? Also check the bedding.

Off-topic - But I think you're running into a situation where you want the heavier charge, and maybe using a solid-base slug so as to not blow out the skirt, but heavier bullets needs a faster twist, and me thinks that perhaps the barrel twist on that arm is the limiting factor. Bullets shot from non-optimal twist barrels are known to be a source of random flyers.

BINGO!!!!

Somebody else gets it! This holds true for ALL firearms.

 

[dave951]

About time you showed up! Was hoping you would. What you say confirms much of what I suspect, and I appreciate the hands-on experience and knowledge. Very thankful for everyone who has helped brain-storm. No not rocket science, but it is "science" and "art" for sure. !!! I realize I'm chasing a dream, making a min-yay rifle into a powerful, big game slug-gun. But hey I have to try. I truly love the rifle, but hate to resign it to a once-in-a-while paper puncher.

Dave I saw you mention on another forum that the Armi-Sports do have a reputation for not shooting well sometimes. Is there a known reason for that?

Well I'm not giving up yet, but as mentioned have resolved to drop my "bottom line" to 70 grains. It's unfortunate that the pool of knowledge with these rifles revolves almost exclusively around the service charge, or less, and the traditional bullets. Or unfortunate for me. But, it's been fun dive into the rabbit hole. !!

I think my casting skills are very good, but for sure I'll start weighing, and see what I might see.

Sorry but been busy with prepping for Nationals and dealing wil an elderly parent in poor health.

To your point, the ONLY way you’re going to get away with heavy charges in a minie rifle is to use a bullet with a thicker than normal skirt. The caveat here is it won’t shoot well with lighter charges. Minies are designed to operate within a pressure range and the skirt thickness will determine what pressure.

As for Armisports, I’ve seen only a couple that really shoot and one of them was relined. It’s probably due to how the rifling was cut, wood to metal fit and barrel QC. Many repros have poor inletting in the tang area and that can introduce stress into the barrel and thereby destroying accuracy. One ODG trick was to shim the tang with oil paper to relieve any possible stress from the tang screw.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

BINGO!!!!

Somebody else gets it! This holds true for ALL firearms.

I would guess that the long Springfield barrel, tapered to quite thin at the muzzle, has a bit of a tendency to "whip around", and is subject to nodes, sine-waves and evil spirits. I'm guessing a shorter, stiffer barrel would be less of a challenge, but after giving that much thought, no way could I cut this rifle down.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

As for Armisports, I’ve seen only a couple that really shoot and one of them was relined. It’s probably due to how the rifling was cut, wood to metal fit and barrel QC. Many repros have poor inletting in the tang area and that can introduce stress into the barrel and thereby destroying accuracy. One ODG trick was to shim the tang with oil paper to relieve any possible stress from the tang screw.

Thanks for the info. That is something I can look into, and correct/improve/address.

 

[Mike OTDP]

There's a reason why almost all of the top rifle-musket shooters use 2-band guns. A 33-inch barrel is stiffer, and outshoots the long tubes.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

There's a reason why almost all of the top rifle-musket shooters use 2-band guns. A 33-inch barrel is stiffer, and outshoots the long tubes.

Just as I suspected.